What I find interesting about this, is that during this period of the Washington State murders, no one knew about Ted Bundy, nor of his occasional use of a false mustache when he engaged in abduction. That alone, in my view, gives this a bit of credibility it otherwise wouldn’t have, as we know specific times Bundy used a false mustache, including the abduction of Debra Kent from Viewmont High School in Bountiful, Utah, after the aborted abduction of Carol DaRonch.
Dawn’s observations continue:
I told him I was a psych major, so it’s likely, being a psych major himself, he suspected I was dissecting him as he spoke. He did try to scare me a couple of times: By feigning concern, when I knew he also intended to induce fear by slyly smiling almost flirtatiously while saying things like “I imagine an attractive young woman such as yourself must be afraid knowing ‘Theodore Bundy’ is on campus.” Or his pondering out loud and watching my face react, “it must have been a terrifying nightmarish experience for the missing young women.” At some point I corrected Ted as he kept saying “the missing young women” and I responded “They aren’t missing women, they are dead. Their bones were found on Taylor Mountain.” At which point he deflected to how he “didn’t know the details of the case”, but bragged his friend ‘knew more about the case than even the investigators did’ as “she was writing a book about it, and she was convinced of my innocence.” He was referring of course to true crime writer Ann Rule.
I was never actually directly confrontational with Ted or anything, I knew it was all a mind game, but I really wanted to look Ted in the face and say her name to him” (Naslund), which is what I did when I said “I knew Denise Naslund”. He offered his awkward empty platitude “I feel sorry for the genuine friends and family of the missing young women ...” and it immediately struck me how the saying is normally “I feel genuinely sorry for the friends and family.” So it seemed Ted misspoke his empty rehearsed line ... and because of his artifice and lack of sincerity, he didn’t feel or notice the empathetic difference!
It’s clear Dawn was sizing up Bundy from the moment she first saw him.
I closely observed Ted Bundy gleefully wolfing down a hamburger and spinning a lot of baloney to his companion, brazenly perching himself right at the center of his favorite hunting grounds (U of W Undergraduate Library cafeteria), while the rest of world seemed not to notice. Well, I noticed. And Ted noticed that I noticed. Could that man really be Ted? Would he really have the guts to come back on campus? His nerve truly stunned me. But more than that, I was angry. I had known Denise Naslund because she worked as a receptionist at Graybar Electric with my then boyfriend. She was such a sparkly, vivacious, pretty, smiley young girl. So full of life. And her mother was totally destroyed by her murder. To see him laughing and smiling and enjoying a burger was pretty nauseating to watch. I wanted to observe how he spun his web, and dodged and weaved and turned on the charm. I noticed the artifice in his choice of words, trying to say what normal people say. Trying to mimic compassion. He wore leather gloves and was fidgeting, winding the loose ends of the cloth belt of his over-sweater around his hands, again and again. I watched his actions and thought ‘strangulation’. At that point in time little was known (or at least released) about cause of death. But the way he subconsciously moved his hands ...!
A quick mention: I’m correcting here a statement in The Bundy Murders where I state that Dawn had a brother who was a Seattle Police detective; something, by the way, that I received directly from the record and which is clearly a mistake. It was actually her cousin who was the Seattle Police investigator.
When I got home from school and told my parents I talked to Ted Bundy, my father was (understandably) furious. “What!? All that smarts and not one ounce of common sense!” We immediately called our cousin Al Schrader, who had been a Seattle homicide detective. Al got Detective McChesney etc., the info and the detectives came out to my parents’ house to interview me. Also, a side note that came from my cousin, Seattle Detective, Al Shrader: Ted had told me he was studying at the Undergraduate Library that day precisely because he’d been asked to leave the Law Library (located elsewhere). In fact, Al Schrader told me, Ted was kicked out of the Law Library days before and was simply coming back to campus day after day to prowl.
Lastly, Dawn touched upon a central theme of Bundy’s life – his search to be seen as something special; a “greatness,” if you will, that Bundy—a constant user of people—would experience through the work and success of others, and in this particular case, his lawyer.
He also bragged about having John Henry Brown as his attorney. Brown was a youngish, dapper dresser with a theatrical flair and was a bit of a local celebrity lawyer, mostly due to his style and ability to retain higher profile clients. Ted seemed to relish the limelight, and it seemed that Ted felt Brown was one more example of how special and important Ted was.
CHAPTER SEVENTEEN
Dr. Al Carlisle
Back in the spring of last year (2018), Al Carlisle, the clinical psychologist who evaluated Ted Bundy after his incarceration in Utah, passed away. It came as a bit of a shock to me, as Al appeared to be in the peak of heath, and his death was sudden and unexpected.
My connection with Al Carlisle began after my friend James Massie contacted Al on my behalf (they’d been friends for years), asking if we could talk, and Al, true to his friendly nature, told Jim it was fine if I contacted him. At the time this occurred, I had only very recently decided to write a book about Bundy and I knew Al would have very good information even beyond that which I could locate in the official reports. After receiving the go-ahead, I called Al in the summer of 2006, in preparation of my trip to Utah for research purposes in August of that year.
Unfortunately, our schedules could not align themselves to allow us to meet face to face during my trip, but we did contact each other by phone and email as he assisted me in understanding what it was like dealing with Ted Bundy. And in very short order, we became friends. So much so, that we kept up with each other over the years, and we’d often send each other signed copies of our books whenever a new one was released. I’m very grateful that he took the time to write several books, for by doing so, he’s left us a great deal of knowledge pertaining to Ted Bundy and killers in general. For those of you who’ve been traveling along with me through the years as I penned the first, and then the second, and finally, the third Bundy book, you’ll notice that Dr. Al Carlisle plays a part in them all.
What follows is an email Al sent me in September 2006, only several weeks after he began working with me. I had sent him a number of questions which he promptly and succinctly answered.
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 10:53 p.m.
Subject: Ted Bundy
Kevin. Here are some answers to your questions.
1.—My first impression of Ted was that he was an intelligent, assertive person who had an air of confidence.
2.—If Ted had not been apprehended in Florida I believe he would have continued killing. He was out of control and I don’t believe there was any chance that he would have been able to get control back. He was wanted by the police, he was separated from his family and the area he was most familiar with (northwest) and he couldn’t go back to college and major in law. I believe that he knew that he would always be looking over his shoulder to see if there was a cop or someone who knew him. In essence, he was “free” but he was a person without hope.
3.—I believe that Ted felt remorse quite frequently for what he was doing. Bob Keppel in The Riverman film talks about Ted driving away from a crime scene, almost in hysterics because of what he had done. I believe he wanted to stop but couldn’t. Instead, he built a defense mechanism in an attempt to shut off the guilt before it reached the level of consciousness. Ted was intelligent enough to be aware that sooner or later he would be caught and he knew he would be giving up everything he wanted out of life if he was caught. The issue here is: Was he feeling gen
uine guilt or was his remorse out of a fear of being caught? I believe there was a little of both. Ted built his life around being in control and I’m sure it bothered him when he wasn’t.
4.—This conversation occurred in the hall outside one of the interview rooms. Ted asked if I felt he was guilty of the Washington crimes. I wanted to say I knew for certain he was guilty but I felt that if I did say it, he would say that I was biased in my report. Ted paused, didn’t ask why I thought that and he returned to his cell block. He didn’t show any anger here.
5.—I didn’t feel there was any time when Bundy was reaching out for “help.” There were times when he would reach out for contact, both with me and with others.
6.—Author’s note: my question to Dr. Carlisle had to do with Bundy’s statement to the writer Stephen Michaud about how he was able to refrain from killing a particular young woman, and jokingly said that he was in his “reformation period.” Regarding Bundy’s statement to Michaud, I believe that Bundy’s statement was probably more of a wish at the time of the event that he could get rid of his need for violence.
7.—There were only a few times that I saw Ted really angry. For the most part, he wanted to appear cooperative, in control, and not guilty. He knew that if I saw anger in him it would go in the report.
8.—I didn’t sense any body odor changes in him. Regarding the eyes, I have had other women tell me about the eyes of the person about to attack them. There is a difference which is likely due to some form of temporary neurotransmitter changes when a person is in that state of mind.
The relationship between Ted Bundy and Al Carlisle is fascinating to observe, albeit from the distance of many years from when the actual events occurred. From Al’s perspective, he understood Bundy was a blood-thirsty psychopathic killer who was responsible for the nightmarish deaths of many women. And yet, on a day-to-day basis, as he interviewed and conducted tests, he also began to see a likeable man and, in turn, it’s clear Bundy liked the doctor as well. Of course, Carlisle understood he was only seeing the well-crafted façade that Bundy had worked so hard to create, so he was never “fooled” by his tactics. But in a human sense, under such controlled circumstances, Ted Bundy could be that likeable fellow. It was this charming outward demeanor that caused his family members and friends back in Washington state to stand by him—it just couldn’t be their Ted— even after he was revealed to the world as the monster he ultimately became.
It is of interest to note too, that these friendly interactions between the two men would continue long after Bundy had ceased any official dealings with the psychologist. After Bundy was turned over to the Colorado authorities to stand trial for the murder of Caryn Campbell, he managed to escape from the Aspen Courthouse one spring day by jumping out of the second story window (no easy task, as it’s a twenty-five-foot drop to the ground). After his recapture, close to a week later, he made it a point of calling Carlisle to discuss it, and this conversation was wisely recorded. And from the joviality one hears in Ted’s voice, it’s very easy to imagine that two close friends were simply catching up with one another.
PHOTOGRAPHS
The Campus Crier newspaper at Central Washington State College, depicting a composite drawing of the man who abducted Susan Rancourt, and attempted other abductions at the college, on April 17, 1974
The Missing Person’s poster of Susan Rancourt
A rarely seen composite drawing of the man (Bundy) with his arm in a sling
A shot of the walkway that Bundy and Susan Rancourt traveled down at CWSC. Bundy and Rancourt came from the front of the library and rounded the far corner of the building on the left. The bridge that ran over the pond was situated where the newer walkway is seen, and as they stepped off the bridge they stayed on the asphalt and angled off to the right of the photo to a deserted spot on campus by a railroad trestle
On the evening of May 6, 1974, Kathy Parks and Lorraine Fargo, both Oregon State University students, spent a few minutes talking on the sidewalk area seen in the above photo. Afterward, Kathy crossed the small street and entered the Memorial Union Commons by way of the steps seen on the right. Bundy would lead her away from here about 15 minutes later
Sackett Hall, where Kathy Parks was a resident, was only one block from the Memorial Union Commons
Alameda Middle School in Pocatello, Idaho. It was here that Ted Bundy rolled up in his VW and convinced Lynette Culver, 12, to leave with him. He would murder her back at his hotel room at the Holiday Inn by drowning her in the bathtub.
Jayleen Banker, one of the victims of the Wyoming Rodeo Murders
A portion of the rear of the Chi Omega Sorority house, as seen in the summer of 2008. Undergoing restoration at that time, the stacked doors to the right of the photo are classic 1970s design
Chi Omega, summer 2008
Dawn Kraut, who had a revealing conversation with Ted Bundy in the cafeteria at the University of Washington
Leslie Parmenter, 1979, only one year after her encounter with Ted Bundy
Acknowledgments
It is impossible to write nonfiction books without having a number of people to thank, and this book is no exception. First, because I’ve used a large portion of the official record, I would like to thank those institutions that have diligently housed what has come to be a voluminous amount of material that make up the Ted Bundy case file. And for the Bundy case there are two: The King County Archives in Seattle, Washington, and the Florida State Archives, in Tallahassee, Florida. Without these fine institutions, writing about the Bundy murders would be extremely difficult, and that difficulty would only increase over time. Of the many thousands of pages that I retain from my days of writing my first book on the case, over 98% of this material came from these two archives. Once again, I would like to give a nod and a tip of the hat to these two fine institutions, and the wonderful people who run them! Although Utah has never shown any interest in housing any materials from Bundy’s reign of terror in Utah and the surrounding states, Jerry Thompson, the lead detective for the Bundy case in Utah, was kind enough to share his files with me, and for that I’m extremely grateful. Indeed, I’m extremely grateful to all the investigators and other participants who so kindly worked with me throughout the writing of this series. Without their active and dedicated participation, a great deal of valuable information would have remained hidden, and ultimately lost forever.
I would also like to thank the following people who assisted me with this book:
Shirl Sipperley DiGugno. Shirl not only assisted me in locating two of the interviewees for this book, but was very helpful in securing contact info for other individuals as well. Knowing how difficult this process can be, I very much appreciate her efforts; Amy Merka, a Facebook friend and fellow traveler in the field of true crime, for introducing me to Bundy victim, Kathy Kleiner, whose testimony appears in this book. Without her efforts I would never have had a chance to interact with Kathy, become friends, and interview her for this book. Thanks goes also to Vince Lahey who, while digging through the archive in Aspen, Colorado, found an article containing important information from The Aspen Times and passed it along to me, which I’ve used for this book.
My thanks go out to all of those who’ve allowed me to interview them for this book. In doing so, they are contributing to history, for wherever valid and accurate testimony can be saved and placed on the printed page, it will be of great benefit for future generations. Each and every story is like a television screen allowing us to look back into the past, and I’m grateful for each one of you: Francine Bardole and her son Larry Bardole; Kathy Kleiner; Robert Cook; Andrew Valdez; Laurie Anne Hulse and her son Tom Hulse; “Maggie” from Tallahassee; the woman who wishes to remain anonymous, but was nevertheless close with both Kathy Parks and Lorraine Fargo; and the late Lorraine Fargo, who contacted me after The Bundy Murders was published. Lorraine, like so many of the family and friends of the women Bundy murdered, carried
deep emotional wounds stemming from that time. But through our communications, little by little, she began to open up, and it wasn’t long before she mentioned that what was now happening in her life, was actually proving to be cathartic for her. And then, within a year, Lorraine passed away. Thankfully, her exceedingly important testimony has been preserved in my book, The Trail of Ted Bundy: Digging up the Untold Stories.
And last, but certainly not least, I’d like to thank my editor at WildBlue Press, Jacqueline Burch, for all her efforts and skill that makes every book she edits a much better book than what it would be otherwise. She also has a great deal of patience. I know she does, as she’s worked with me on my last two books!
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