EUDOXUS Then for this defecte you finde no faulte with the people themselves, nor with the preists which take the charge of sowles, but with the first ordinance and institucon thereof.
IRENIUS Not so, Eudoxus for the sinne or ignorance of the prieste shall not excuse the people, nor the authoritie of theire greate pastor, Peters successor, shall not excuse the prieste, but they all shall dye in their sinnes: for they have all erred and gone out of the waye together.
EUDOXUS But yf this ignorance of the people bee sucha burthen unto the Pope, is yt not a like blott to them that nowe holde that place, in that they which nowe are in the light themselves suffer a people under their care to wallowe in such deadly darknes? for I doe not see that the fault is changed but the faultines.
IRENIUS That which you blame, Eudoxus, is not I suppose any fault of will in these godly fathers which have charge thereof, nor any defecte of zeale for reformacon, but the inconvenience of the tyme and troublous occasions, wherewith that wretched Realme hath bene contynually turmoyled; for instruccon in religion needeth quiett tymes, and ere wee seeke to settle a sounde discypline in the cleargie, wee must purchase [peace] unto the layetie, for yt is yll tyme to preach amongest swords, and most hard, or rather ympossible, yt is to settle a good opinion in the myndes of men for matters of religion dowbtfull, which have dowbtles evill opinion of ourselves; for ere a newe be brought in, the oulde must be removed.
EUDOXUS Then belike yt is meete that some fitter tyme bee attended, that God sende peace and quietnes there in Civill matters before yt be attempted in ecclesiasticall. I would rather have thought that as yt is said, correccon shoulde begynne at the howse of God, and that the care of the soule should have benn preferred before the care of the bodye.
IRENIUS Most true, Eudoxus, the care of the sowle and sowle matters are to be preferred before the care of the body, in consideracon of the worthines thereof, but not in the tyme of reformacon; for if you should knowe a wicked person dangerouslie sicke, havinge nowe both sowle and body greatly diseased, yet both recoverable, would you not thincke yt ill advertisement to bringe the preacher before the phisicon? for yf his body were neglected, yt is like that his languishinge sowle being disquieted by his diseasefull body, would utterly refuse and loath all sprituall comfort. But yf his body were first recured, and brought to good frame, should there not then bee found best tyme to to recure his sowle also? Soe yt is in the stae of a Realme: Therefore as I saide yt is expedient, first to settle such a coorse of goverment there, as thereby both Civill disorders and ecclesiasticall abuses may be reformed and amended, whereto needeth not any such greate distance of tymes, as yee suppose I requier, but one joynte resolucon for both, that each might second and confirme the other.
EUDOXUS That wee shall see when wee come thereto: in the meane tyme I consider thus much, as you have delyvered, touchinge the generall faulte which yee suppose in religion, to weete, that it is popishe; but doe you finde no particular abuses therein, in the ministers thereof?
IRENIUS Yes verilie; for what ever disorders yee see in the Church of England yee may finde there, and many more: namelie, grosse symonie, greedy covetousnes, fleshlie incontinece, careles slougth, and generally all disordered lief in the common clergiemen. And besides all these, they have theire owne particular enormities; for all the Irishe preists, which now enjoye the church lyvings there, are in a manner meere laymen, soe like Laymen [that they] lyve like laymen, followe all kindes of hubandrye and other worldly affaires, as the other Irishe laymen doe. They nether reade scriptures, nor preach to the people, nor mynister the Sacrament of Communion; but the Baptisme they doe, for they christen yet after the popish fashion, and with the popish lattine mynistracon, only they take the tythes and offeringes, and gather what fruits ells they may of theire lyvinge; the which they convert as badly. And some of them they saye pay as due tributts and shares of theire lyving to their Bishoppes, (I speake of those which are Irish) as they receve them dulye.
EUDOXUS But is that suffered amongest them? It is wonder but that the governors redres such shamefull abuses.
IRENIUS Howe can they, since they knowe them not? for the Irishe Bishops have theire cleargie in such awe and subjeccon under them, that they dare not complaine of them, soe as they may doe to them what they please, for they knowinge theire owne unworthynes and incapacitie, and that they are therefore removable att theire bishops will, yeilde what pleaseth him, and he taketh what he listeth: yea, and some of them whose dyoceses are in remote partes, somewhat out of the worldes eye, doe not att all bestowe the benefices, which are in theire owne devocon, upon any, but keepe them in theire owne hands, and sett theire owne servants and horseboyes to take up the Tythes and fraucts of them, with the which some of them purchase greate lands, and buylde fayre castells upon the same. Of which abuse yf any question bee moved, they have a very seemelie coulor of excuse, that they have no worthie mynisters to bestowe them upon, but keepe them soe unbestowed for any such sufficient person as any shall bringe unto them.
EUDOXUS But is there no lawe or ordinance to meete with this mischeife? nor hath yt never before benne looked into?
IRENIUS Yes, it seemes yt hath; for there is a statute there enacted in Ireland, which seemes to have benn grounded upon a good meaninge — That whatsoever Englisheman beinge of good conversacon and sufficiency, shalbee brought unto any of those Byshops, and nominated unto any lyvinge within their dyoces that is presently voide, that he shall without contradiccon bee admytted thereunto before any Irishe.
EUDOXUS This is surelie a very good lawe, and well provided for this evill, whereof yee speake: and whie is not the same observed?
IRENIUS I thincke yt is well observed, and that none of the bishops transgres the same, but yet yt worketh no reformacon hereof for many respects. First there are no such sufficient Englishe mynisters sent over as might bee presented to any bysshop for any lyvinge, but the moste parte of such Englishe as come over thither of them selves are either unlearned, or men of some bad note, for the which they have forsaken England. So as the Bisshop, to whome they shalbe presented, may justly rejecte them as incapable and insufficient. Secondly, the Bishhop himselfe is perhappes an Irishe man, whoe beinge made judge by that lawe of the sufficiency of the mynister, may at his owne will, dislike of the Englisheman, as unworthye in his opinion, and admytt of any other Irishe whome he shall thincke more fitt for his turne. And yf he shall at the instance of any Englishman of countennance there, whome he will not displease, accept of any such Englishe minister as shalbe tendred unto him, yet he will under hand carry such a hard hande over him, or by his officers wring him so sore, that he will soone make him weary of his poor lyvinge. Lastlye, the benefices themselves are so meane, and of soe smale proffitt in those Irishe countryes, through the ill husbandry of the Irishe people which inhabite them, that they will not yeilde any competent maynetenance for any honest mynister to lyve upon, scarslie to buy him a gowne. And were all this redressed, as happely yt might bee, yet what good should any Englishe mynister doe amongst them, by preachinge or teachinge which either cannot understande him, or will not heare him? Or what comfort of lief shall he have, where his parishioners are soe insacyable, soe intractable, soe ill-affected to him, as they usually bee to all the English? or fynally, how dare allmost any honeste mynisters, that are peacefull civill men, commit his saifetie to the handes of suche neighbors, as the boldest captaines dare scarcelye dwell by?
EUDOXUS Little good then I see is by that statute wrought, howe ever well intended; but the reformacon thereof must growe higher, and be brought from a stronger ordinance then the commaundement or penaltye of a lawe, which none dare enforme or complaine of when yt is broken: but have you any more of these abuses in the cleargie?
IRENIUS I coulde perhappes reckon more, but I perceave mye speach to growe to longe, and these may suffice to judge of the generall disorders which raigne amongst them; as for the particulers, they are too manie to bee reckoned. For the cleargie there, except some fewe grave fathers which are i
n high place about the state, and some others which are lately planted in theire new colledge, are generally bad, lycentious, and most disordered.
EUDOXUS Yee have then, as I suppose, gone through these three first partes which ye purposed unto your selfe, to wyte, the inconveniences which ye observed in the lawes, in the customes, and in the religion of that Land. The which me seemes, you have soe thoroughlie touched, as that nothinge more remayneth nowe to be spoken thereof.
IRENIUS Not so thoroughlie as ye suppose, that nothinge more can remayne, but soe generally as I purpost; that is, to lay open the generall evilles of that realme, which doe hinder the good reformacon thereof; for to accounte the particuler faultes of private men, should be a worke infinite; yet some there bee of that nature, that though they bee in pryvate men, yet theire evill reacheth to a generall hurte, as the extorcon of sheriffes, subsheriffes, and their bayliffes, the corrupcon of victuallers, cessors, and purveryors, the disorders of shenescalles, captaines, and their souldyers, and many such like: All which I wil only name here, that theire reformacon may bee mynded in place where yt moste concerneth. But there is one very foule abuse which, by the waye, I may not omitt, and that is in captaines, whoe notwithstandinge that they are speciallie imployed to make peace thorough stronge execucon of warre, yet they doe soe dandle theire doinges, and dally in their service to them commytted, as yf they would not have the enemye subdued, or utterly beaten downe, for feare leaste afterwardes they should neede imployment, and soe be dischrged of paye: for which cause some of them that are layed in Garrison doe so handle the matter, that they will doe noe greate hurte to the enemyes, yet for colour sake some men they will kill, even halfe with the consent of the enemy, being persons either of base regard, or enemies to the enemy, whose heades eftsones they sende in to the Governor for a commendacon of theire greate endevors, telling howe waightie a service they have performed by cuttinge of such and such daingerous Rebelles.
EUDOXUS Trulye this is a pretty mockery, and not to be permitted by the Governors.
IRENIUS Yes, but how cann the Governors knowe readily what persons those weare, and what the purpose of theire killinge was? yea, and what will yee saye, if the captaines doe justifye this theire course by ensample of some of theire Governors, whoe, under Benedicite, I doe tell yt to you, doe practise the like sleights in theire goverments?
EUDOXUS Is it possible? Take heed what you saye, Irenius.
IRENIUS To you, you only, Eudoxus, I doe tell yt, and that even with greate heartes griefe, and inward trouble of mynde, to see her Majestie soe much abused by some whome they put in specyall trust of theire affayres: of which some, beinge marshall men, will not will not doe allwayes what they may for quietinge of things, but will rather wincke at some faultes, and suffer them unpunished, leaste they havinge put all thinges in that assurance of peace that they might, they shoulde seeme afterwards not to be needed, nor contynued in theire goverments with soe greate a charge to her Majestie. And therefore they doe cunningly carry theire coorse of goverment, and from one hande to another doe bandy the service like a Tennys-balle, which they will never strike quite awaye, for feare leaste afterwards they should want sportes.
EUDOXUS Doe you speake of under magistrates, Irenius, or of principall governors?
IRENIUS I doe speake of noe particulars, but the truth may be founde out by tryall and reasonable insighte into some of theire doinges. And yf I shoulde saye there is some blame thereof in some of the principall Governors, I thincke I might allso shewe some reasonable proffe of my speach. For by that which I and many have observed, the like might be gathered. As for ensample, some of them feinge the ende of theire goverment to drawe nighe, and some mischeefe or troublous practise growinge up, which afterwards may worke trouble to the next succeding governor, will not attempt the redres or cuttinge of thereof, either for feare they shoulde leave the realme unquiett att the ende of their goverment, or that the next that commeth shoulde receave the same to quiett, and soe happely wynne more prayse thereof then they before. And therefore they will not as I say, seeke at all to redres that evill, but will eyther by graunting proteccon for a tyme, or houldinge some enparlance with the rebell, or by treaty of commissioners, or other like devises, onely smother and keepe downe the flame of the mischiefe, soe as yt may not breake out in theire tyme of goverment: what comes afterwards they care not, or rather wishe the worst. This coorse hath bene noted in some governors.
EUDOXUS Surelie Irenius this, yf yt were true, should bee worthye of an heauy judgment: but yt ys hardlye to be thought, that any governor should soe much either envye the good of that realme which is putt into his hande, or defraude her Majestie, whoe trusteth him soe much, or maligne his successor which shall possesse his place, as to suffer an evill to growe up, which he might tymelye have kept under, or perhaps to nourishe yt with colloured countenance, or suche synister meanes.
IRENIUS I doe not certenly avouch, Eudoxus: but the sequell of thinges doth in a manner prove, and playnely speake soe much, that the governors usually are envyous one of anothers greater glorie, which yf they woulde seeke to excell by better governinge, it shoulde be a most laudable emulacon. But they doe quite otherwise: for this (as yee maye marke,) is the common order of them, that whoe commeth next in place will not followe that coorse of government, how ever good, which his predecessor helde, or for desdaine of himselfe, or dowbte to have his doinges drowned in another mans prayse, but will straighte take a way quite contrarye to the former: as yf the former thought by keepinge under the Irishe, to reforme them, the next, by discontynencinge the Englishe will curry favor with the Irishe and soe make his government seeme plausible in viewe, as havinge all the Irishe at his commaund: but he that comes next after will perhappes follow neither thone nor thother, but will dandle thone and thother in suche sorte, as he will sucke sweete out of them both, and leave bitternes to the poore lande, which yf he that comes after shall seeke to redres, he shall perhappes finde such crosses as he shalbe hardly able to beare, or doe any good that might worke disgrace of his predecessors. Ensmples hereof yee maye see in the governors of late tymes sufficientlye, and in others of former tymes more manifestlye, when the government of that Realme was commytted sometymes to the Geraldynes, as when the Howse of Yorke helde the Crowne of England; sometymes to the Butlers, as when the Howse of Lancaster gott the same. And other whiles, when an Englishe governor was appointed, he perhappes founde enemies of both. And this is the wretchednes of that fatall kingdome which, I thincke, therefore in old tyme was not called amisse Ranna or Sacra Insula, takinge Sacra for accursed.
EUDOXUS I am sorrie to heare soe much as yee reporte; and nowe I begynne to conceave somewhat more of the cause of her contynuall wretchednes then heretofore I founde, and I wishe that this inconvenyence were looked into: for sure me seemes yt is more waightie then all the former, and more hardly to be redressed in the governor then in the governed; as a maladie in a vitall parte is more incurable then in an externall.
IRENIUS You saye very true; but nowe that wee have thus ended all the abuses and inconveniences of that goverment, which was our first parte, it followes next to speake of the seconde part, which was of the meanes to cure and redres the same, which wee must labor to reduce to the first begynninge thereof.
EUDOXUS Right soe Irenius: for by that which I have noted in all this your discourse, yee suppose that the whole ordinance and institucon of that realmes goverment was, both att first when yt was placed, evill plotted, and allso since, through other oversighte, rune more out of square, [to] that disorder which yt is nowe come unto; like as twoe indirect lynes, the further they are drawen out, the further they goe asunder.
IRENIUS I doe see, Eudoxus and as yee saye, soe thincke, that the longer that goverment thus contynueth, in the worse case will that Realme bee; for yt is all in vayne that they nowe stryve and endeavor by fayre meanes and peaceable plotts to redres the same without first removinge all those inconveniences, and newe framinge, as yt were in the forge, all that is worne out of fashion
: for all other meanes wilbe but lost labor, by patchinge up one hole to make many; for the Irish doe strongly hate and abhor all reformacon and subjeccon to the Englishe, by reason that, havinge bene once subdued by them, they were thrust out of all theire possessions. Soe as nowe they feare, that yf they were againe brought under, they shoulde likewise be expelled out of all, which is the cause that they hate Englishe goverment, accordine to the sayinge, Quem metuunt oderunt: therefore the reformacon must nowe be with the strength of a greater power.
EUDOXUS But, me thinckes, that might bee by makinge of good lawes, and establishinge of newe statuts, with sharpe penalties and punishments for amendinge of all that is presently amisse, and not as ye suppose, to begynne all as yt were anewe, and to alter the whole forme of the goverment; which how daingerous a thinge it is to attempte, you your selfe must needs confesse, and they which have the managinge of the Realmes whole pollycie, cannot, without greate cause, feare and refrayne: for all innovacon is perillous, in soe much as though yt be meante for the better, yet soe many accidents and fearefull events maye come betweene, as that it may hazard the losse of the whole.
IRENIUS Very true, Eudoxus; all chainge is to be shunde, where the affayres stand in such state as that they may contynue in quitnes, or bee assured at all to abide as they are. But that in the Realme of Ireland wee see muche otherwise, for every day wee perceave the troubles growinge more upon us, and one evill growinge upon another, in soe much as there is noe parte founde nor assertayned, but all have theire eares upright, waytinge when the watchworde shall come that they shoulde all rise generally into rebellyon, and cast awaye the Englishe sujeccon. To which there nowe little wanteth; for I thincke the worde be alreadye geven, and there wanteth nothinge but opportunitie, which trulye is the death of one noble person, whoe, beinge himselfe most stedfast to his noble Queene and his Countrye, coastinge upon the Southe Sea, stoppeth the ingate of all that evill which is looked for, and holdeth in all those which are at his backe, with the terror of his greatnes, and thassurance of his most immoveable loyalltye: And therefore where you thincke, that good and sounde lawes might amend and reforme thinges amisse there, you thincke surely amisse. For yt is vayne to prescribe lawes, where no man careth for keepinge of them, nor feareth the daunger for breaking of them. But all the realme is first to be reformed, and lawes afterwards to be made for keepinge and contynuinge yt in that reformed estate.
Complete Works of Edmund Spenser Page 171