Robert said to Jon, you better come with me, or I’m setting these lads on to you. Is that the truth? Yeah. Susan says, God’s honest truth? Yeah, you think I’m telling lies don’t you? Dale says he doesn’t know, he just hopes Jon is telling the truth; sometimes it’s hard to tell.
Jon says he Robert and Ryan had sagged together, and Ryan didn’t go in until six that evening. They went to Walton Park. The weather was greyish, a bit warmish and coldish. They went to the old unused railway. Not the one that’s alive, the one that’s dead. They went along the railway for a bit, and then to Long Lane and the MFI, going in the kitchens, playing around, hiding in the showers and that.
Dale and Scott are uncertain of the locations, and Susan Venables tries to explain them. She says she knows her areas. Jon says they played on the big swing by the Littlewoods on Walton Hall Avenue, then walked through the park to the Aldi on County Road, cutting through the streets by the Argos, going up the road to the chemists, messing about in the lifts in the big block of flats.
They went down Scotland Road and across to the Liverpool football ground. Robert said they should look at the names on the Hillsboro’ things, and asked Jon if he wanted to get the flowers. Jon said no, they’re people’s memories. So they looked at the names, and then went up to the cemetery, where Robert showed Jon his family’s graves, and Jon showed Robert his nan’s and grandad’s.
They saw the fire in the betting shop on County Road, and then they went into the Village to the video shop. Susan, who has been helping out with locations, says aren’t you forgetting something? Jon says, oh yeah, they went to Fads and stole that paint, and Robert threw it over him, down the entry by Olney Street. When Robert threw the paint Jon said his mum was going to kill him, and Ryan was laughing. Then they went to the Village and Ryan said he was going in, and Robert and Jon went to the video shop.
Jon tells the story of going to collect the money for the video, and being caught in the shop by his mum and taken to the police station. The policeman had said if he did it again he’d go in a home. Then his mum took him home, and Jon went to bed.
The buzzer goes, the second interview finishes. It is just before a quarter to eight. Dale and Scott, of course, know that Jon was at the Strand on Friday. But there’s no rush. Plenty of time to get to that. Jon has become comfortable, and more confident, with the relaxed, unchallenging questions.
■
Bobby’s second interview begins shortly after eight o’clock. He’s been in the detention room, having a cup of tea and a cheese sandwich from the canteen. Jim Fitzsimmons has been liaising with the two interviewing teams, passing on to Phil Roberts the news that Jon has been everywhere on Friday, except the Strand.
Roberts asks Bobby about his interests. Bobby says he supports Everton, but doesn’t go to matches. What’s his hobby then? Skipping school, says Bobby laughing. Bob Jacobs says that’s not a hobby that’s a profession, when you do it as well as Bobby does.
When he was at the house this morning, says Roberts, he noticed the trolls. Yes, Bobby has been collecting them for a few months. Was he in a shop at the Strand last Friday, looking at trolls? No. Well, the officers believe he was. Bobby asks what shop. A shop in the Strand that sells trolls. There’s quite a lot of them says Bobby, but yes, he was looking at trolls in a shop. Then why did he say no? Because he thought they meant a troll shop, a shop that just sold trolls.
Roberts says Jon has been talking to other officers. Bobby wants to know if he’s here at Walton Lane. No, he’s at Lower Lane, and he’s saying he wasn’t at the Strand. But we were, says Bobby. Why is he scared of saying he was, then? Because his mum or his dad will come down and get him. No, that’s not the reason, it’s because something happened, didn’t it? Like the baby got took, says Bobby. Yes. Not by me. Bobby says he wasn’t with Jon all the time. Did Jon grab the baby? Bobby doesn’t know, perhaps Jon made the baby follow them, and then got him lost somewhere. Is that what happened? Bobby doesn’t know, he didn’t look back.
The officers now speak of the video footage, and explain that they’ve been able to pick out James with two boys. Bobby says it’s not him because he wouldn’t take James. Roberts says there’s a boy with a similar jacket. Bobby says many jackets get sold the same as his. But there’s also a boy with a jacket like Jon’s, walking next to James. Yeah, well he’s not walking along with me.
Bobby will not admit that he or Jon have been with James. The officers leave the subject, and begin to talk again about what Bobby did on Friday. Bobby admits that he sometimes steals food from the shelves of shops. Not trolls. Just food. Pepperami.
The officers tell Bobby they’re not bothered about anything he’s stolen. It doesn’t matter to them if he’s taken 20 trolls. And they know a lot of lads go to the Strand and steal. They’re not bothered about that, they just want to know the truth about Friday.
Bobby again says, I never took the baby. Everyone by theirs says it looks like him and Jon on the video. It looks like Jon that’s taken the baby.
Roberts tells Bobby about speaking to Ryan this morning, Ryan telling him how Bobby had said that he’d seen two boys with James. Bobby says he never said that. Roberts says he wouldn’t tell lies. Bobby says no, but Ryan is.
They talk about Ryan for a while, about the time Bobby lost him at the Strand. Then Roberts says they have a description of two boys from the shop that sells trolls, which matches the two boys on the video, and matches Jon and Bobby. He says he thinks Bobby saw more of James, because he wouldn’t remember the blue coat from a brief glance. They go to and fro over this, with no concession from Bobby.
Roberts. We believe that you left with baby James and with Jon.
Bobby. Who says?
Roberts. We say, now.
Bobby. No. I never left with him.
Roberts. Well, tell me what happened, then.
Bobby. It shows in the paper that Jon had hold of his hand.
Roberts isn’t asking about what it says in the paper, or what Bobby’s friends say. It’s not trying to make Bobby feel bad, it’s not to bring up nasty memories or anything. It’s just the truth, that’s all. Bobby says he never touched him. He begins crying. I never touched him.
That’s why you’ve noticed the anorak, says Roberts, because Jon had hold of James’s hand, isn’t that right? Yes. Bobby says Jon grabbed the baby’s hand and just walked round the Strand. Then he let him go loose. He let him go when they were by the church, by the Smiley. Bobby says he told Jon to take him back. He begins crying again. He’s getting all the blame. He’s going to get all the blame for murdering him, but they left him by the church.
Roberts asks if James could talk. Bobby says Jon asked him his name and where he lived. Bobby imitates a baby’s cry. He went, I want me mum, and started crying. Jon said he was going to find her. James didn’t say his name or where he lived.
The officers try to challenge Bobby’s assertion that they left James at the church. Roberts says they have a statement from a woman who saw three boys on the reservoir. Bobby doesn’t know anything about that. There’s lots of people with the same coats as him and Jon.
The buzzer goes. Bobby asks if he’ll be able to go home tonight. We don’t know yet, we don’t know yet. Okay.
■
Bobby isn’t going home, and neither is Jon. The two interviewing teams are talking to Jim Fitzsimmons, swapping information, wondering how best to proceed. Should they do another interview, or will the boys be too tired? Ideally, let’s get another one in tonight, but leave the choice to the lawyers. They decide to close the two police stations, which means no other prisoners will be accommodated in the cells. The boys’ families and their legal representatives will have the run of the bridewell. Duty social workers are called in. Bedding collected from local care homes. Police stations are never closed, but this is different, and it looks like being a long haul.
Even now, there can be no certainty that these two boys killed James Bulger. Forensic will show if James’s blood app
ears on the boys’ shoes and clothing. But, essentially, it’s all down to the interviews. They need admissions, just like the old saying: no cough, no job.
After some discussion, everybody is happy with one more interview. Bobby goes again just after nine thirty, a few minutes before the start of Crimewatch on BBC 1.
Straight off, Bobby says you’ll find out in the end it was him that took the baby. You know I’m not lying, you’ll get his face up on the video. I never had hold of his hand.
Again, he says that they left James by the church. Phil Roberts describes in detail the statement given by the woman on the reservoir. He says he believes it’s Bobby and Jon with James. Bobby insists they left him at the church. They never went up on the hill.
Phil Roberts reminds Bobby that he’s said he understands the difference between truth and lies. He told a lie before, and then said it was Jon, holding James’s hand. Bobby knows, but he never had hold of his hand.
The woman on the reservoir spoke of an injury on James’s head, says Roberts. Bobby says that was on his head when he saw him. A bump or what? No, it was like a graze. Like a stone had been thrown at him and it had just grazed him. Bobby points to his forehead.
Roberts says the woman on the reservoir was worried about the injury, and thought James should go to the hospital. Bobby says they never went up on the hill. The woman might be lying.
Roberts and Jacobs press, and press, but Bobby will not concede to the reservoir. He fences with the officers. He says they could be lying, too. Finally, his mother intervenes.
Ann. Do you want to sort all this tonight?
Bobby. Where?
Ann. Do you want to sort all this out tonight?
Bobby. Yeah.
Ann. Tell the truth.
Bobby. I am.
Roberts. Bobby, I know, I know when you’re about to tell us the truth because you fill up with your eyes, do you understand what I mean? And I can say that, it was like before, you know, when you told us eventually about the, meeting him in the Strand, right, you filled up before again. I think you were going to tell us that you were on top of that hill.
Bobby. We were.
That’s better, isn’t it? Just tell the truth. Roberts wants to know what happened there. When James fell. Bobby says the graze was already on his head. He was crying for his mum. He said he wants his mum, and they said they were going to try and find her. Then when the lady with the dog had gone they left James on the hill.
Now that’s not right, is it? It is. It’s not. That is the truth. Now would Bobby have left baby Ben, his brother, on the hill, if he was two? No, ’cos he’s my brother. And would he have left a similar boy? He’s not though, he’s not any relation to us. Mum, is Jon getting asked this?
Jacobs says Jon might tell them the whole truth from the start. That’s all they’re after. Bobby says Jon won’t tell them he took the baby out of the Strand. Why not? Because he knows that he’ll get into trouble by his dad.
Jon asked the woman on the hill where the police station was, but they weren’t going to take him to the police station. Well, they were, but Bobby wasn’t going to carry him, because Elizabeth lived round there and she’d spread it to everyone. Spread what? That they found a little boy in the Strand while they were sagging.
Roberts thinks they were going to take James to the police station. They were, says Bobby. Roberts thinks they led him from the hill and went towards the police station. I never killed him, says Bobby. Now, Bobby, I haven’t got as far as that. But you’re trying to say that, though. You’re trying to say that we got nearer the police station. Roberts asks why that is. Bobby says because that’s where he was found, isn’t it? Where did you leave him then? On the reservoir place, on the hill.
Jacobs changes the theme, to paint. Did Bobby get any paint that day? Why would I want paint? Bobby doesn’t know if Jon got paint on his clothes. Ask Jon. The interview is only 25 minutes old, but Bobby is tired. They’re all tired. As they close the interview, Bobby wants to know if he’s allowed home.
Bobby is returned to the detention room, and at ten to eleven a uniformed Inspector goes through the formality of a custody review, explaining why Bobby must be further detained.
‘Why do I have to stay here?’ Bobby asks. ‘Jon’s the one that took the baby.’
■
When Jon’s third interview begins, at twenty to ten, Mark Dale asks Jon if he really did go to all the places he mentioned visiting on the Friday. Jon again starts to invent elaborate detail, and George Scott breaks in, saying he thinks Jon should know that Robert’s at Walton Lane police station, and has told a different story of what happened on Friday.
Jon says Robert’s probably told lies, and when Dale asks what lies he thinks Roberts been telling, Jon starts to cry, his voice full of fear as he says,
I don’t know, you think I’ve killed the kid. His mum says they don’t think that, and tells him not to be getting upset. Lawrence Lee tells Jon not to get upset. Nobody’s saying that, says Lee. His mum explains that they just want to know where he’s been. If he’s been robbing all day he should tell them. Jon whimpers. He didn’t go to Bootle Strand. Ssh, says his mum. They want to know where you’ve been.
Susan says that Jon had told her before this interview that Robert was going to tell all kinds of lies. Jon had told her he was going to tell the policemen about this when he came in for the interview.
Jon, still crying, says Robert took him to places that he didn’t know. Susan explains for Jon that he’s frightened, because he doesn’t know the places and Robert does. She had asked him if it was Bootle Strand, and he had said no. Jon is still crying, and Dale asks Lawrence Lee if he’s happy for the interview to continue. Lee says he’s monitoring it very closely.
The officers ask Jon again about the places he visited, and introduce the Strand. Jon says he doesn’t know where the Strand is, but he’s been there with his mum. He can’t describe it. He hasn’t been there many times. Susan explains that she doesn’t shop there. She goes to St John’s in the city normally.
Dale asks if Jon was at the Strand on Friday. No. Was he with Ryan? No. Then why did he say he was with Ryan? He doesn’t know, Robert told him to say it. Say what? Susan asks. That we were with Ryan. Susan says, but you were with Ryan in the morning. I know, says Jon, till half three. Dale asks if Jon is sure about this, because Ryan says he was in school. Jon says Ryan is lying. Susan tells Jon to be honest and asks, was Ryan with you? No. Robert said tell that Ryan was with us so that we can get him into trouble with us. But I never went to Bootle Strand.
The officers change the subject, and talk for a while about the clothes Jon and Bobby were wearing. Then Jon concedes that he has told two lies, about being with Ryan and being in the Everton area. He is reminded of the importance of telling the truth.
Dale. You see, Robert says that he was with you, and that you were indeed in Bootle New Strand together.
Jon. We wasn’t.
Dale. Robert says you were.
Jon. Yeah, we was, but we never saw any kids there. We never robbed any kids.
Dale. So you were in Bootle New Strand.
Susan, (shouting) Was you in Bootle Strand?
Jon. Yeah, but we never got a kid mum, we never, we never, we never got a kid. (He is crying, sobbing getting up and out of his chair, distraught.)
Dale. Mrs Venables, would you, I must ask you not to get angry with him.
Jon. But we never got a kid mum, we never. We saw those two lads together we did, we never got a kid mum, mum we never got a kid, you think we did, we never, mum we never.
The four adults in the room try to calm Jon. Lawrence Lee says its not a criminal offence to go to Bootle New Strand. Scott says they’re not saying he’s taken any children. They just want him to tell the truth. Susan warns him. He’d better carry on telling the truth. Jon continues to cry.
Dale tries to proceed, along a more innocuous line of questioning. Talking about the shops Jon and Robert went to, and what the
y did there — which, Jon says, was robbing. He begins crying again. His mum tries to hush him.
Jon. If you knew that I went to Bootle Strand.
Susan. I would have strangled you, yeah.
Jon. And wouldn’t have you thought I’d killed a kid. I never, because…
Susan. Well, I wouldn’t think that.
Lee. We don’t think that.
Jon. Because, because, if you thought I went and I sagged off and you think that I killed him
Susan. I wouldn’t think you’d done that at all.
Jon. Because, because, I would’ve told, because I thought you’d think I done it.
Susan. If I would’ve known this all now, Jon, I would’ve had you down the police station right away, instead of them banging on my front door and making a show of me in the street…
Jon. But I…
Susan… humiliation.
Jon… I thought you’d think that I killed him.
Jon sobs, and sobs. Lawrence Lee and the officers agree that it’s time to end the interview and let Jon calm down. Susan says she wants this over and done, because she’s livid now. George Scott says she should try not to get angry with Jon. Susan says she’s not going to. She just wishes he would’ve told her in the beginning, and saved a lot of time on her part.
Interview over, one minute past ten.
■
There would be no more interviews tonight, but the two teams of officers were expected back at Marsh Lane for a debriefing. A lot of people were waiting to hear what was happening.
The bosses were gathered in Geoff MacDonald’s office, where he and Jim Fitzsimmons were now encircled by Chief Superintendents, Superintendents, and sundry other managers. They had dozens of questions, and Phil Roberts could barely speak. He was bushed. He let Bob Jacobs do the talking. It was like that in the interviews too, even though they had never worked together before. A look from Roberts and Jacobs would step in. A sign from Jacobs and Roberts would take over. That was how it should be.
The Sleep of Reason: The James Bulger Case Page 13