by Johnny Satan
A: I was in the back seat of somebody’s car.
Q: Do you remember anything else about that experience?
A: The police were shaking me and waking me up.
Q: Did they take you off to jail?
A: They carried me off, one of them had me under both sides of my arm and they were dragging me.
Q: Did anything happen to you in jail that you remember?
A: I had a fight.
Q: Do you know why?
A: Three guys jumped on me and they said I was crazy, and I was insane; that’s why they beat me up.
Q: Did you get any injury in that fight?
A: I cut — they cut my eye; one of them cut up my eye pretty bad. I had to have it sewed up.
Q: Do you remember what jail you were in when this occurred?
A: I found out later it was Van Nuys.
Q: And do you remember what month this was?
A: April, I believe.
Q: Do you have any idea what the belladonna that was being brewed up by Paul Watkins and Brenda was to be used for?
A: I know after that I heard that Charlie kept talking about putting it in the water tanks of this city.
Q: Was that in connection with helter-skelter, if you know?
A: Something in that — something to do with it.
Q: Did Manson say anything more about helter-skelter during this period of time?
A: That’s all that was talked about during this whole period of time, during the whole period of time it was helter-skelter; and like the more acid we took, the more helter-skelter it would be.
Q: Well, did he say when it was going to start?
A: Any second.
Q: Is that what he would say?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did he tell you what the dune buggies were to be used for?
A: Yeah, after helter-skelter came down, that’s how we’d get out of the city.
Q: Did you believe in helter-skelter?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you believe in revolution?
A: Very much so.
Q: How about the bottomless pit?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there any portion of the Manson philosophy that you disagreed with?
A: No, I agreed with it all.
Q: Did he tell you what you would have to do during helter-skelter?
A: No, it was just that I remember we were the only ones that were going to be saved, because we didn’t have any fear.
Q: Was fear a big thing with Manson?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Did he talk about it a lot?
A: All the time. This is what the acid would do, and plus Manson’s philosophy.
Q: What did he say about fear?
A: He said that we had already experienced — we were experiencing now all the fear that you could have, and that he would take us on wild dune buggy trips and wild car trips while we were on acid; and the acid and his philosophy and him scaring us all, with the animals and stuff, would pull out all our fear until we had no fear at all; and then he’d talk about the people down in the city, how they were afraid to die and that we had already experienced death and that we were experiencing death at the time, and pretty soon we were dead mentally.
Q: Were there any demonstrations by Manson during these sessions where death was talked about?
A: He would always make out like he had – somebody was sitting in a chair on the other side of the room, and some person that had a lot of fear, like one of the persons down the hill or something, and he would pretend like — like we were just sitting there with no fear and we could just see the fear in this imaginary person that was sitting there, and he would be talking to them and telling them how not to be so scared or anything and don’t worry and everything would be alright, all he wanted was for you to sign all their possessions to him and after they’d do this he’d just scare them to death.
Q: Did he use animals in demonstrating fear?
A: Yes. He would bring animals into the room and he would take an animal, like a cat, for instance, and he would start throwing it up in the air and squeezing it and pulling on it and the cat was crying at first, I remember, and then when he got through with it, the cat didn’t even — never would make a noise again and it was still walking around alive.
Q: Did he give the cat any drugs or anything of that nature, if you know?
A: No, no drugs at all. He would do us the same way. He would take us into his arms, on acid trips, and he called it the movement or the flow, or something and he would take all our stiffness out of our body, until we would just float right with him.
Q: How would he do that?
A: I don’t know how he would do it. He just put his arms around you and take you and caress you and start moving you in all different directions and taking all of your fear out of you and all you are and the rest that you had in you out of you, until there wasn’t anything, until you and him were one body.
Q: You would move when he moved?
A: It was the same movement, the same body. There was no push or there was no pull.
Q: If you would lift your arm up, it would just drop down immediately?
A: Yes, because he would take it and he could move you in any direction you wanted to move.
Q: And you didn’t resist; is that correct?
A: There was no push or no pull, no resistance, just like one, being one body.
Q: I think you told us you started to use — you used belladonna for the first time in April of ‘69; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did you use it again while you were at the ranch?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How often would you use it?
A: Not very often. About once a month or a little over.
Q: What effect would it have on you when you use it?
A: About the same effect all the time.
Q: What was that?
A: Well, the blackout and then waking up and having hallucinations and being completely away from reality and talking to space people that would come down out of the sky and you could see their space ships.
Q: Did you ever do that? Talk to space people?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: Where, do you remember?
A: Well, several times out at the ranch and one time in jail the first time.
Q: Was that what led to the fight in jail?
A: That was some of the things because I was making strange noises back at the space people.
Q: How long would a trip on belladonna last?
A: It would depend on if you got woken up. If somebody woke you up, you would start having a lot of hallucinations. I know it took about 18
hours before you could walk around on your own with it and then if you took speed with it then you could move around.
Q: Did you ever take belladonna and speed at the same time?
A: Yes. That was one of the things to take belladonna and then when you woke up to get your energy going and to — you would have a lot of energy from the belladonna and the belladonna would give you so much energy that after you woke up, it would give you so much energy that you just wouldn’t know what to do. You would be bright red, kind of red, and your whole body would be dehydrated to where you wouldn’t be anything but muscles and bones.
Q: When you say the body was bright red, did you actually turn red or did you imagine that you were red?
A: Well, I looked red from my eyes. I don’t know how I looked to other people.
Q: Did you ever look at yourself in the mirror under belladonna?
A: No, not that I can recall.
Q: I think you told us that when you were there, when you were at the ranch between September and December, you used LSD and no speed; is that correct?
A: Used what?
Q: You didn’t use any speed between September and December of 1968?
A: That is correct.
Q: When you got back in this period you are talking about, February or March of 1969, was speed av
ailable at the ranch?
A: It started being available in a little tablet, Charlie used to give it to us all the time, all the guys and some of the girls too, to be able to stay up and work on the dune buggies.
Q: Do you remember what the tablets looked like?
A: It was a round tablet with a cross in it and then we run out of those and then he had a baggie, a white powder that was methedrine.
Q: How would you use methedrine?
A: Sniff it.
Q: Who kept that supply? That is methedrine.
A: The girls would keep all of the supplies.
Q: Did you ever have any of your own?
A: I knew where the speed was but I didn’t take any unless Charlie or the girls would bring it to me to take to work on the dune buggies.
Q: Is that what you were doing primarily during this period of time?
Working on dune buggies?
A: Yes, working on dune buggies. Eventually I got so high and out of control on speed that I didn’t work on any dune buggies any more that much.
Q: What did the girls do in this period of time?
A: The girls, I know the girls that were around me so I could work on the dune buggies more. They would go after screw drivers and parts and wash parts off to help me out so I wouldn’t have to do that.
Q: Were there other chores being performed by the girls?
A: They would cook and do the things that girls did on dune buggies.
Q: What did the girls do on dune buggies?
A: They put a lot of fur on Charlie’s dune buggy.
Q: How about garbage runs? Were there any things like that going on?
A: Yes. They went on garbage runs everyday.
Q: What was the purpose of that?
A: To go behind grocery stores and get the vegetables and fruits and anything that they could find to eat.
Q: Is that what you lived on at the ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: What did that mean?
A: That meant to, that is another way Charlie would take the fear out of you. He would take you out at night and just walk up and down the beach and get close to people’s houses and stuff, you know, to experience the fear of being around things.
Q: Did you ever go into a house and take anything while you were with Manson?
A: No. I did not.
Q: Did the girls do that, if you know?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Were there credit cards around the ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know where they came from?
A: I know the girls on two or three times I can remember, the girls went out and got credit cards. I remember one time or two times they were hitch-hiking and the guy would take them home with him and they would end up leaving with his credit cards.
Q: Then would you use them around the ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Were all the girls around the ranch pretty much of the same order; that is, would they all do pretty much the same thing?
A: Pretty much the same thing.
Q: Was there any one girl who seemed to be a little closer to Manson than anybody else?
A: Brenda, seemed like she was always pretty close to Manson.
Q: Anybody else that you can think of that was close to Manson?
A: I don’t know — all of them was, they were all, you know, his girls.
You know, that was understood, that they were his, you know.
Q: Well, was there any one girl that gave any more orders than any other girl, if any of them did?
Mr. Kay: Well, that assumes a fact not in evidence, that any of them gave orders.
Mr. Bubrick: I said if any of them did, in his presence.
The Court: Overruled. You may answer.
Witness: What is the question, again?
Mr. Bubrick: Would you read it back, please Mr. Reporter?
[Record read.]
A: I don’t say any orders were given to any girls it would have been from — by any girls, it would have been from Brenda or Squeaky or Sadie.
Q: [By Mr. Bubrick] Were they the oldest members of the family, as far as you know?
A: Yes, nearly all of the girls were — was all members older than me, had been there a lot longer than I had.
Q: What sort of a person was Sadie?
A: Her and Charlie were always — Charlie was – her and Charlie was always kind of having trouble together because she would kind of tell people what to do. She was kind of an authoritative like girl.
Q: Did Charlie disapprove of that?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: And how did he demonstrate that disapproval?
A: He’d beat her up in front of everybody.
Q: Did you see him do that to any of the other girls?
A: I saw him beat on some of the other girls, yes.
Q: About the same time?
A: Well, through the periods I was there, all the time, I guess.
Q: Did you ever meet Linda Kasabian?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Do you remember when?
A: Around July ‘69.
Q: Do you remember when you first met her?
A: Her and Gypsy were walking up to the ranch one afternoon and I was out standing on the grounds of the ranch and they came walking up to me.
Q: Were you introduced to her?
A: Yes, her and her little girl.
Q: Did Linda have a baby with her?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk with her for some while?
A: No, they just kind of passed by me — was introduced to her, and then they went on about their business, you know.
Q: Did you see her anymore that first day?
A: Yes, I was standing at the end of the boardwalk and she came walking up.
Q: Did she still have the baby with her?
A: No, she didn’t.
Q: About what time of the day or night was it when you met her this way?
A: I know it was —the sun was still up.
Q: I take it you didn’t have watches out there, is that right?
A: No watches or nothing like that.
Q: What happened between you and Linda?
A: I know I put my arms around her and we went into a back shack and made love.
Q: How long did that take?
A: I don’t have any idea. I know that some girl came and got us because it was time to eat, time for everybody to eat and Charlie was getting everybody together, you know, to eat.
Q: Where did you eat on that occasion, if you remember?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Did you talk with Linda at all that evening?
A: Yes I did.
Q: What did you talk about, if you remember?
A: Well, she was interested in the family.
Q: What did she ask you?
A: I remember the main question she asked me was how did we live and how did we get our money, things like that; just how we got along, you know.
Q: Did you tell her?
A: Yeah, I told her that everybody who came to the ranch gave up all their money and possessions and everything .
Q: Do you know of your own knowledge whether Linda ever brought money back to the ranch?
A: Yes, about $5,000.
Q: Did you send her for it?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you tell her to get it?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Were you around when she brought it?
A: I saw it, but I didn’t — I saw the money there but I wasn’t around when she came back with it.
Q: Do you know who she gave it to?
A: No, I do not.
Q: It wasn’t to you, was it?
A: No, it was not.
[Possible missing testimony]
Q: Do you remember what you continued to do during the month of July around the ranch?