[The question was put, and the petition rejected, with scarcely any opposition.]
The house then entered upon the consideration of the bill, and when the report was made from the committee, and the blanks filled up, sir William YONGE spoke, in the following manner: —
Sir, the bill has been brought, by steady perseverance and diligent attention, to such perfection, that much more important effects may be expected from it than from any former law for the same purpose, if it be executed with the same calmness and resolution, the same contempt of popular clamour, and the same invariable and intrepid adherence to the publick good, that has been shown in forming and defending it.
But what can we hope from this, or any other law, if particular men, who cannot be convinced of its expedience, shall not only refuse to obey it, but declare their design of obstructing the execution of it? shall determine to retire from the sphere of their authority, rather than exercise it in compliance with the decree of the senate, and threaten, in plain terms, to call the country in to their assistance, and to pour the rabble by thousands upon those who shall dare to do their duty, and obey their governours?
Such declarations as these, sir, are little less than sallies of rebellion; and, if they pass without censure, will, perhaps, produce such commotions as may require to be suppressed by other means than forms of law and senatorial censures.
Nor do I think that, by rejecting the petition, we have sufficiently established our authority; for, in my opinion, we yielded too much in receiving it. The bill before us whatever may be its title, is, in reality, a money bill; a bill, by which aids are granted to the crown; and we have, therefore, no necessity of rejecting petitions on this occasion, because the standing orders of the house forbid us to admit them.
They then proceeded to the amendments, and when the clause for limiting the wages of seamen was read, sir John BARNARD rose up, and spoke to this effect: —
Sir, we are now to consider the clause to which the petition relates, which I have now presented, a petition on a subject of so general importance, and offered by men so well acquainted with every argument that can be offered, and every objection which can be raised, that their request of being heard by their council cannot be denied, without exposing us to the censure of adhering obstinately to our own opinions, of shutting our ears against information, of preferring expedition to security, and disregarding the welfare of our country.
It will not be necessary to defer our determinations on this clause for more than three days, though we should gratify this just and common request. And will not this loss be amply compensated by the satisfaction of the people, for whose safety we are debating, and by the consciousness that we have neglected nothing which might contribute to the efficacy of our measures?
The merchants, sir, do not come before us with loud remonstrances and harassing complaints, they do not apply to our passions, but our understandings, and offer such informations as will very much facilitate the publick service. It has been frequent, in the course of this debate, to hear loud demands for better expedients, and more efficacious, than those which have been proposed; and is it to be conceived that those who called thus eagerly for new proposals, intended not to inform themselves, but to silence their opponents?
From whom, sir, are the best methods for the prosecution of naval affairs to be expected, but from those whose lives are spent in the study of commerce, whose fortunes depend upon the knowledge of the sea, and who will, most probably, exert their abilities in contriving expedients to promote the success of the war, than they whom the miscarriage of our fleets must irreparably ruin?
The merchants, sir, are enabled by their profession to inform us — are deterred by their interest from deceiving us; they have, like all other subjects, a right to be heard on any question; and a better right than any other when their interest is more immediately affected; and, therefore, to refuse to hear them, will be, at once, impolitick and cruel; it will discover, at the same time, a contempt of the most valuable part of our fellow-subjects, and an inflexible adherence to our own opinions.
The expedient of asserting this to be a money bill, by which the just remonstrances of the merchants are intended to be eluded, is too trivial and gross to be adopted by this assembly: if this bill can be termed a money bill, and no petitions are, therefore, to be admitted against it, I know not any bill relating to the general affairs of the nation which may not plead the same title to an exemption from petitions.
I therefore desire that the consideration of this clause may be deferred for two days, that the arguments of the merchants may be examined, and that this affair may not be determined without the clearest knowledge and exactest information.
Sir Robert WALPOLE spoke next, to this effect: — Sir, the petition, whether justifiable or not, with regard to the occasion on which it is presented, or the language in which it is expressed, is certainly offered at an improper time, and, therefore, can lay no claim to the regard of this assembly.
The time prescribed, by the rules of this house, for the reception of petitions, is that at which the bill is first introduced, not at which it is to be finally determined.
The petition before us is said not to regard the bill in general, but a particular clause; and it is, therefore, asserted, that it may now properly be heard: but this plea will immediately vanish, when it shall be made appear that the clause is not mentioned in it, and that there is no particular relation between that and the petition, which I shall attempt —
Here sir John BARNARD, remarking that sir Robert WALPOLE had the petition in his hand, rose, and said: — Sir, I rise thus abruptly to preserve the order of this assembly, and to prevent any gentleman from having, in this debate, any other advantage, above the rest, than that of superiour abilities, or more extensive knowledge.
The petition was not ordered, by the house, to be placed in the right honourable gentleman’s hand, but on the table; nor has he a right to make use of any other means for his information, than are in the power of any other member: if he is in doubt upon any particulars contained in it, he may move that the clerk should read it to the house.
Sir Robert WALPOLE laid down the paper; Mr. PELHAM rose, and said: — Sir, I am so far from thinking the rules of the house asserted, that, in my opinion, the right of the members is infringed by this peremptory demand. Is it not, in the highest degree, requisite, that he who is about to reason upon the petition should acquaint himself with the subject on which he is to speak.
What inconveniencies can ensue from such liberties as this, I am not able to discover; and, as all the orders of the house are, doubtless, made for more easy and expeditious despatch, if an order be contrary to this end, it ought to be abrogated for the reasons for which others are observed.
The confidence with which this petition was presented, will not suffer us to imagine that the person who offered it fears that it can suffer by a close examination; and I suppose, though he has spoken so warmly in favour of it, without perusing, he does not expect that others should with equal confidence admit —
Sir John BARNARD observing that sir Robert WALPOLE leaned forward towards the table, to read the petition as it lay, rose, and said: — Sir, I rise once more to demand the observation of the orders of the house, and to hinder the right honourable gentleman from doing by stratagem, what he did more openly and honestly before.
It was to little purpose that he laid down the petition, if he placed it within reach of his inspection? for I was only desirous, sir, to hinder him from reading, and was far from suspecting that he would take it away. I insist, that henceforward, he obey the rules of this assembly, with his eyes as well as with his hands, and take no advantage of his seat, which may enable him to perplex the question in debate.
Then the PRESIDENT spoke thus: — Sir, it is, undoubtedly, required by the orders of the house, that the petitions should lie upon the table; and that any member, who is desirous of any farther satisfaction, should move that they be read by the clerk, that eve
ry member may have the same opportunity of understanding and considering them; and that no one may be excluded from information, by the curiosity or delays of another. But the importance of this affair seems not to be so very great as to require a rigorous observance of the rules; and it were to be wished, for the ease and expedition of our deliberations, that gentlemen would rather yield points of indifference to one another, than insist so warmly on circumstances of a trivial nature.
Sir Robert WALPOLE then desired that the clerk might read the petition, which being immediately done, he proceeded in the following manner: —
Sir, having sat above forty years in this assembly, and never been called to order before, I was somewhat disconcerted by a censure so new and unexpected, and, in my opinion, undeserved. So that I am somewhat at a loss, with regard to the train of arguments which I had formed, and which I will now endeavour to recover. Yet I cannot but remark, that those gentlemen who are so solicitous for order in others, ought, themselves, invariably to observe it; and that if I have once given an unhappy precedent of violating the rules of this house, I have, in some measure, atoned for my inadvertence, by a patient attention to reproof, and a ready submission to authority.
I hope, sir, I may claim some indulgence from the motive of my offence, which was only a desire of accuracy, and an apprehension that I might, by mistaking or forgetting some passages in the petition, lose my own time, and interrupt the proceedings of the house to no purpose.
But having now, according to order, heard the petition, and found no reason to alter my opinion, I shall endeavour to convince the house that it ought not to be granted.
The petition, sir, is so far from bearing any particular relation to the clause now before us, that it does not, in any part, mention the expedient proposed in it, but contains a general declaration of discontent, suspicion, apprehensions of dangerous proceedings, and dislike of our proceedings; insinuations, sir, by no means consistent with the reverence due to this assembly, and which the nature of civil government requires always to be paid to the legislative power.
To suspect any man, sir, in common life, is in some degree to detract from his reputation, which must suffer in proportion to the supposed wisdom and integrity of him who declares his suspicion. To suspect the conduct of this senate, is to invalidate their decisions, and subject them to contempt and opposition.
Such, and such only, appears to be the tendency of the petition which has now been read; a petition, sir, very unskilfully drawn, if it was intended against the clause under our consideration, for it has not a single period or expression that does not equally regard all the other clauses.
If any particular objection is made, or any single grievance more distinctly pointed at, it is the practice of impresses, a hardship, I own, peculiar to the sailors; but it must be observed that it is a practice established by immemorial custom, and a train of precedents not to be numbered; and it is well known that the whole common law of this nation is nothing more than custom, of which the beginning cannot be traced.
Impresses, sir, have in all ages been issued out by virtue of the imperial prerogative, and have in all ages been obeyed; and if this exertion of the authority had been considered as a method of severity not compensated by the benefits which it produces, we cannot imagine but former senates, amidst all their ardour for liberty, all their tenderness for the people, and all their abhorrence of the power of the crown, would have obviated it by some law, at those times when nothing could have been refused them.
The proper time for new schemes and long deliberations, for amending our constitution, and removing inveterate grievances, are the days of prosperity and safety, when no immediate danger presses upon us, nor any publick calamity appears to threaten us; but when war is declared, when we are engaged in open hostilities against one nation, and expect to be speedily attacked by another, we are not to try experiments, but apply to dangerous evils those remedies, which, though disagreeable, we know to be efficacious.
And though, sir, the petitioners have been more particular, I cannot discover the reasonableness of hearing them by their council; for to what purpose are the lawyers to be introduced? Not to instruct us by their learning, for their employment is to understand the laws that have been already made, and support the practices which they find established. But the question before us relates not to the past but the future, nor are we now to examine what has been done in former ages, but what it will become us to establish on the present occasion; a subject of inquiry on which this house can expect very little information from the professors of the law?
Perhaps the petitioners expect from their counsel, that they should display the fecundity of their imagination, and the elegance of their language; that they should amuse us with the illusions of oratory, dazzle us with bright ideas, affect us with strong representations, and lull us with harmonious periods; but if it be only intended that just facts and valid arguments should be laid before us, they will be received without the decorations of the bar. For this end, sir, it would have been sufficient had the merchants informed their representatives of the methods which they have to propose; for the abilities of the gentlemen whom the city has deputed to this assembly, are well known to be such as stand in need of no assistance from occasional orators. Nor can it be expected that any men will be found more capable of understanding the arguments of the merchants, or better qualified to lay them before the senate.
That every petitioner has, except on money bills, a right to be heard, is undoubtedly true; but it is no less evident that this right is limited to a certain time, and that on this occasion the proper time is elapsed. Justice is due both to individuals and to the nation; if petitions may at any time be offered, and are, whenever offered, to be heard, a small body of men might, by unseasonable and importunate petitions, retard any occasional law, till it should become unnecessary.
Petitions, sir, are to be offered when a new bill is brought into the house, that all useful information may be obtained; but when it has passed through the examination of the committees, has been approved by the collective wisdom of the senate, and requires only a formal ratification to give it the force of a law, it is neither usual nor decent to offer petitions, or declare any dislike of what the senate has admitted.
We are not, when we have proceeded thus far, to suffer pleaders to examine our conduct, or vary our determinations, according to the opinions of those whom we ought to believe less acquainted with the question than ourselves. Should we once be reduced to ask advice, and submit to dictators, what would be the reputation of this assembly in foreign courts, or in our own country? What could be expected, but that our enemies of every kind would endeavour to regulate our determinations by bribing our instructers.
Nor can I think it necessary that lawyers should be employed in laying before us any scheme which the merchants may propose, for supplying the defects, and redressing the inconveniencies, of the laws by which sailors are at present levied for the royal navy; for how should lawyers be more qualified than other men, to explain the particular advantages of such expedients, or to answer any objections which may happen to rise?
It is well known that it is not easy for the most happy speaker to impress his notions with the strength with which he conceives them, and yet harder is the task of transmitting imparted knowledge, of conveying to others those sentiments which we have not struck out by our own reflection, nor collected from our own experience, but received merely from the dictates of another.
Yet such must be the information that lawyers can give us, who can only relate what they have implicitly received, and weaken the arguments which they have heard, by an imperfect recital.
Nor do I only oppose the admission of lawyers to our bar, but think the right of the merchants themselves, in the present case, very questionable; for though in general it must be allowed, that every petitioner has a claim to our attention, yet it is to be inquired whether it is likely that the publick happiness is his chief concern, and whether his private
interest is not too much affected to suffer him to give impartial evidence, or honest information. Scarcely any law can be made by which some man is not either impoverished, or hindered from growing rich; and we are not to listen to complaints, of which the foundation is so easily discovered, or imagine a law less useful, because those who suffer some immediate inconvenience from it, do not approve it.
The question before us is required, by the present exigence of our affairs, to be speedily decided; and though the merchants have, with great tenderness, compassion, and modesty, condescended to offer us their advice, I think expedition preferable to any information that can reasonably be expected from them, and that as they will suffer, in the first place, by any misconduct of our naval affairs, we shall show more regard to their interest by manning our fleet immediately, than by waiting three or four days for farther instructions.
Mr. SANDYS answered to this effect: — Sir, the merchants of London whether we consider their numbers, their property, their integrity, or their wisdom, are a body of too much importance to be thus contemptuously rejected; rejected when they ask nothing that can be justly denied to the meanest subject of the empire, when they propose to speak on nothing but what their profession enables them to understand.
To no purpose is it urged, that the bill is far advanced, for if we have not proceeded in the right way, we ought to be in more haste to return, in proportion as we have gone farther; nor can I discover why we should expedite, with so much assiduity, measures which are judged ineffectual, by those who know their consequences best, and for whose advantage they are particularly designed.
That we have already spent so much time in considering methods for manning the fleet, is surely one reason why we should endeavour at last to establish such as may be effectual; nor can we hope to succeed without a patient attention to their opinion, who must necessarily be well experienced in naval affairs.
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