太宗问：铁蒺藜和行马，听说是太公所创制的，是吗？
李靖答：是的，然而那只是用以拒御敌人而已，用兵作战重要的是击破敌人，不仅是为了拒止敌人。太公《六韬》所说的铁蒺藜、行马是防守的工具，不是进攻所使用的。
Part 3
Question 3.1
Tang Taizong said: “Jiang Ziya’s ‘Six Strategies’ mentioned: ‘When infantrymen engage the chariots and cavalrymen in battle, they must take advantage of the hills, tomb mounds, rugged steeps and defiles.’ But, in Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’, it is said that the ‘army forces should not be situated in places like ravines, hills, tomb mounds and old abandoned cities.’ These seem to disagree; why?”
Li Jing replied: “The key in controlling the troops in battle is to unify the whole army, and the key to unification of minds in the troops is to prohibit superstition, and dispel doubts. If the commanding general has doubts, the morale of the troops will be sapped, and once the morale of the troops is sapped, the enemy would take this opportunity to act when we are off guard. Setting up camps and holding positions must be convenient enough for the army to maneuver. Terrain with precipitous cliffs, with torrents running between, deep natural hollows, confined places, tangled thickets, quagmires and crevasses are not convenient for an army to maneuver. Therefore, strategists tend to stay away, and try to avoid such places, so as to prevent the enemy from taking advantage to attack. As for the hills and tomb mounds, these are not places that are too dangerous to approach, and these places are strategic and beneficial for us. Why should we stay away from these places? What Jiang Ziya said is one the most important principles in military operations.”
太宗问：太公说：”用步兵对战车和骑兵作战，必须依托丘陵、基地以及险峻阻绝的地形。”孙子又说：天隙之地和丘陵、基地、以及无人居住的城池废墟，军队不可停驻。[两种说法不同，] 为什么?
李 靖答：用兵作战，在于统一意志，统一意志，在于禁止谣言，消除疑忌。假使主将有所疑忌，那军心就动摇，军心动摇，那敌人就会乘隙而来了。安营札寨，据守阵 地，应当便利军队的行动。如绝涧、天井、天陷、天隙、以及天牢、天罗等地形，都是不便于军队行动的，所以用兵时应当避开它，以防止敌人乘隙攻我。至于立 陵、墓地和城池的废墟不是很险阻的地方，我得了对我有利，那怎能放弃而不利用呢。太公的说法是用兵最重要的原则。
Question 3.2
Tang Taizong said: “I think there is nothing more violent and dangerous in the whole world than war; once we discover an act that could be beneficial for our side in a war, how could we be hesitant only because of Ying Yang divination? From now on, if any of our generals are still confined to the theories of Ying Yang divination, and lose the best timing in combat, you should warn and exhort them repeatedly.”
Li Jing bowed and said: “According to Wei Liao Zi: ‘Huang Ti rules the land with benevolence and kindness, while using armed forces against the enemy.’ This is the ‘punishment and benevolence’ referred to in military theories, but not the auspicious theories regarding time and days according to Yin Yang methodologists. However, we should make people use the method of deception, but not allow them to understand why they should do it. In later days, some incompetent generals commonly confined themselves with the theories of Yin Yang divination; this is why they suffered so many defeats. This is a lesson from which we must learn. I will immediately announce Your Majesty’s sage instructions to all the generals.”
太宗说：我想天下凶恶的事情没有超过战争的，作战时只要有利于军队的行动，那能因为避讳阴阳术数而犹豫不决呢。今后诸将如因拘泥于阴阳木数而失去机宜的，你当再三地告诫他们。
李靖再拜谢说：我按《尉缭子》所说：”黄 帝用仁德安定天下，用武力讨伐敌人”兵家所说的刑与德就是这样，不是阴阳家所讲的天官时日等迷信说法。然而诡诈之道，可以使人去做，但不可以使人知道为什 么要那样去做。后来平庸无能的将领往往拘泥于阴阳术数，因而多有失败，不可不以此为戒。陛下的刘海。我立即宣示各将领。
Question 3.3
Tang Taizong asked: “In war, sometimes there is a need to divide the forces, while other times we need to merge the forces. It depends on the actual needs, based on changing situations. Having examined all the records in the past, who excelled at the tactics of dividing and merging the forces?”
Li Jing answered: “Fu Jian had an army of a million people but was finally defeated at the Feishui River. This was because he only used his forces together in a combined way and never divided them. When General Wu Han of the Eastern Han Dynasty was on a punitive expedition against Gongsun Shu, he separated with the adjutant general Liu Shang, and they camped their forces twenty miles apart. When Gongsun Shu attacked Wu Han, Liu Shang reunited with Wu Han and defeated Gongsun Shu in a pincer attack. This is the result of an army dividing and reuniting. Jiang Ziya also mentioned that ‘An army that should divide but does not, is an entangled army; an army that should be united but does not is an isolated army.’”
Tang Taizong said: “Yes, when Fu Jian appointed Wang Meng, who knew a lot about commanding an army, he ruled the mainland. When Wang Meng died, Fu Jian was defeated at Fei Shui as expected. This is due to the army being entangled. Wu Han was trusted by Emperor Guang Wu and was not remotely controlled by the government to command in the battle; therefore, Wu Han was able to suppress the Shu region. This was because the force was not isolated during that battle. The history records of victories and losses should be used as reference in the future.”
太宗问：兵力的使用有分散有集中，必须各得其当，从过去的事迹来看，谁运用得最好？
李靖答：前秦苻坚统率百万大军，被谢玄击败于把水，这是用兵能合不能分的结果。汉光武命吴汉讨伐公孙述，吴与副将刘尚分处扎营，相距二十里，当公孙述进攻吴汉时，刘尚出兵合击，大败公孙述，这是用兵分而能合的结果。太公说过： “当分散而不能分散，就是被束缚的军队；当集中而不能集中，就是被孤立的军队。”
太 宗说：是这样。苻坚最初因为任用深知兵法的王猛，所以取得中原，王猛死后，苻坚果然在淝水失败，这是军队被束缚住的缘故啊！吴汉受到光武的信任，用兵作战 不受朝廷的牵制，所以吴汉果然平定了蜀地，这是军队未陷入孤立境地的缘故呀！前代这些得失的事迹，很可作为后世的借鉴。
Question 3.4
Tang Taizong said: “I observe that of the innumerable sentences and words in all the military books, none has gone beyond the statement ‘use various methods to cause your opponent to make mistakes.’”
After a long while, Li Jing said: “Yes, it is exactly like Your Majesty has said. Generally, in any military operations, if the enemy does not make any mistakes, how can we defeat them? It is just like playing a chess game where two players are equal in strength; if either one of them makes a mistake and he loses the whole game, then there will be no way to save the situation. In fighting for victory, most wins and losses are determined by a single mistake, not to mention many mistakes!”
太宗说：我看了很多兵书，千章万句，没有超出”使用多种方法以造成敌人的错误”一句话。
李靖考虑了很久说：确如陛下所说的。大凡用兵作战，若是敌人没有错误，那我军能取得胜利呢。譬如下棋，双方势均力敌，若一着失误，则全局无救。威信争胜负，大都是由于一着失误，又何况多次失误呢。
Question 3.5
Tang Taizong said: “Attacking and defending are actually two methods used for the same purpose; there are methods of ‘warfare’ to obtain victory in a war. Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’ mentioned: ‘One who excels at attacking makes the enemy unable to know where to defend; one who excels in def
ending would make the enemy unable to know where to attack.’ But it did not mention if the enemy is taking an attack position; our side must also take an attack position. If our side takes a defensive position, the opponent also takes a defensive position. In such a way of both sides assuming mutual attack and defense positions, what techniques should we employ in order to obtain victory?”
Li Jing said: “There are many cases in history of both parties in a war taking mutual attack or defense positions. In all these cases, people would claim that ‘One takes a defensive position when his strength is inadequate; whereas one attacks when the strength is abundant.’ Assuming that ‘being inadequate’ also means weakness and ‘being abundant’ means great strength is the sign of one who does not really understand the essence of the attack and defense method. I follow the saying in Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’: ‘When one cannot conquer the enemy, take the defensive position; when one can conquer the enemy, take the attack position.’ It means that, when there is no chance of defeating the opponent, I will temporarily assume a defensive position; when the conditions that will create my victory have surfaced, we will attack. It is not solely depending on the weakness or strength of the force. Later generations failed to understand the true meaning of this theory, therefore, when they should defend, they attacked and when they should attack, they defended. When they have infringed the principle of attack and defense, they are unable to unite both methods into one.”
Tang Taizong said: “That is true. People have assumed that ‘being abundant’ and ‘being inadequate’ are also equal to strengths and weaknesses. They did not understand the principle in defending: that it is to appear in the eyes of the enemy as weak and with inadequate strength. The principle in attacking is to pretend to be abundant in strength. If we appear in the eyes of the enemy as weak, the enemy will definitely take the attack position. Pretending to be abundant in strength will definitely make the enemy assume the defensive position; this will make the enemy unable to assume the right position in war. Attacking and defense are both methods in acquiring victory; but in spite of our army and the opponent’s, they are separated, and each side in the war will assume either a defense or attack position. If we use our position wisely, the enemy will be defeated. If the enemy uses their position wisely, we will be defeated. The outcome of the war will determine which of us is using the right strategy in the war. Attacking and defense are merely approaches to obtain victory. If we could master these methods, that could help us in obtaining victory and we could win in every war in which we are involved. Therefore ‘If you know yourself and your enemy, you will never lose a battle’ means we need to understand the true meaning of the attack and defense methods.”
Li Jing bowed again and said: “The military strategies of the sages are very profound. Attack is the transformation of defense, while defense is the means of attacking; both ways are approaches to defeat the enemy. If in attacking we do not know how to defend, and in defending we fail to attack, we are not only separating both methods completely from each other, but isolating the application of defense and attack. Even though one could recite the words from Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’, if he could not understand how to apply these methods in practice, and set attack and defense against each other, how can he get to know the mysterious subtleties of both attack and defense?”
太宗说：进攻和防守两件事情，其实都是用以致胜的方法罢了。《孙子》说：”善于进攻的，能使敌人不知道在那里防守才好；善于守的，能使敌人不知道从那里进攻才好。”但是不曾讲到，敌人若来攻我；我也进攻故人；我若防守，敌人也进行防守。这样相攻相守，要想取胜应采用什么方法?
李靖答：从前相攻相守的战例甚多，他们都说”防 守是力量不足，进攻是力量有余”。认为兵力不足便是力量薄弱，兵力有余便是力量强大，这是没有领会运用攻守的方法。我按《孙子》说：”不能取胜时，就采取 防守；可以取胜时，就实施进攻。”也就是说，还没有战胜敌人的可能时，我就暂时防守；等到创造了取胜的条件，然后再进攻，并不是专就力量强弱来说。后人不 了解这种意义，应当进攻反而防守，应当防守反而进攻，既然违反了攻守运用的原则，便不能把进攻和防守的方法统一起来。
太 宗说：就是这样。有余或不足使人怀疑为力量的强弱。那里知道防守的原则要对敌假装力量不足，进攻的原则要对敌假装力量有余。对敌假装力量不足，敌人必然要 来进攻，这是使敌人不知其不当进攻。对敌假装力量有余，敌人就必然采取防守，这是使敌人不知其当防守。进攻和防守本来都是致胜的方法，但从敌我双方说来就 分一攻一守两个方面了。我若运用得当，敌人就会失败；敌若运用得当，我就会失败，从得失成败的结局看就可以分出敌我运用的好坏了。攻和守不过是致胜的方法 而已，掌握了这种致胜的方法，就能百战百胜。所以说：”知己知彼，百战不殆。”就是说要懂得攻守之法的道理。
李 靖再拜说：圣人的兵法是很深奥的。进攻是防守的转化，防守是进攻的手段，两者都是为了战胜敌人。若攻不知守，守不知攻，这不仅是把攻守截然看作两回事，而 且是把攻守的运用各自孤立起来了。虽然口诵孙、吴兵法，但不能理解其运用的奥妙，而把攻守对立起来，他怎能知其所以然呢！
Question 3.6
Tang Taizong said: “The ‘Methods of Sima’ stated that ‘even though a state is large, it will definitely perish if it is constantly involved in war’ and that ‘even though a state is at peace, it could be endangered if it is not prepared for war.’ Is this also a theory regarding attack and defense?”
Li Jing said: “Whenever a state and home territory are involved, they definitely involve attack and defense. Attacking is not restricted to attacking the enemy cities or battle formations. It also includes the way to defeat the enemy’s strategic intention and further shake the morale of his troops. Defending, does not only involve perfectly intact city walls and solid formations, but also needs the high spirit and morale of the troops, as well as waiting for the best opportunity to defeat the enemy. Speaking in big terms, these concepts of attacking and defending are the concepts that a ruler should understand, and in small terms, are methods that generals ought to master. To be able to defeat the enemy’s strategic intention and shake the enemy troop’s morale is the so-called ‘knowing the enemy’ and to be able to keep the spirits high of your own troops is the so called ‘knowing yourself’.”
Tang Taizong said: “That is true! Whenever I was about to prepare for a battle, I would compare the strategy of the enemy’s with ours and see whose is more prudent, then I would understand his strength better. I would also compare the enemy troops’ morale with the morale of our troops and see whose morale is stronger. With that, I would understand the strength or weaknesses of our troops. Therefore, understanding the enemy and yourself is an important principle in military matters. The generals nowadays, even though they are not able to understand their enemy, if they are able to know themselves, how can they still be defeated?”
Li Jing said: “What Sun Tzu meant by: ‘First, create the conditions that would make your troops unconquerable’ is knowing yourself; ‘Wait for the opportunity where you can defeat the enemy’ is knowing the enemy. He also mentioned that ‘being unconquerable depends on one’s self, while being able to win lies with the mistakes made by the enemy.’ During battle, I never dare to go against this strategy.”
太宗问：《司马法》说：”国虽大，好战必亡；天下虽安，忘战必危。”这也是攻守的道理吗?
李靖答：凡是有国有家的，何尝不讲求攻守之道呢！进攻，不仅是攻打敌人的城池和冲击敌人的营阵，还必须有瓦解敌人军心的方法。防守，不仅要有完善的壁垒和坚固的营阵，还必须保特旺盛的士气，持机破敌。[以上、所说的]，从大的方面讲，是为君的应该懂�
�的道理。从小的方面讲，是为将的应掌握的方法。瓦解敌人的军心，就是所谓的知彼；保持我旺盛的士气，就是所谓的知已。
太 宗说：是这样。我每逢临敌作战，必先判断敌方的策划和我方的策划谁比较周密，然后敌方的虚实就可以知道了；察明敌方的士气和我方的士气谁比较旺盛，然后我 方的强弱就可以知道了。所以知彼知已是兵家的重要原则。现在的将领，即使不知道敌人情况，如果能够了解自己的情况，怎么还会失利呢。
李靖说：孙武所谓”首先造成不可被敌战胜的条件”，这就是知已；”等待可以战胜敌人的机会”，这就是知彼。又说：”不可被敌战胜，在于自己的主观努力，可以取得胜利，在于敌人是否产生缺点和错误。”我用兵时一点也不敢违背这一教诲。
Question 3.7
Tang Taizong asked: “According to Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’, the way to make the enemy’s troop loses their morale is ‘In the morning, the spirit of the enemy is high; in the afternoon, the troop becomes indolent; while at dusk, it may be exhausted.’ Therefore a smart commander should avoid the enemy when they are high in morale and spirit, and attack them when they become indolent or exhausted in morale. “What do you think about this statement?”
Li Jing said: “All soldiers would fight their enemy with great courage and would not fear death; this is the great effect of controlling morale and spirit. Thus a good commander must start with observing the morale of his troops and encourage them to fight and to win victoriously; then we could start attacking the enemy. Among the vital points according to Wu Qi, morale is placed at the foremost. There is no other way. If you can raise the morale of the soldiers and make them eager to fight, then the whole army would become unbeatable. The saying of ‘spirit is high in the morning’ is not only restricted to the timing, but is using the beginning and the end of a day as an analogy. If the enemy’s morale has neither declined nor depleted after three assaults, how can you make it indolent or exhausted? People who study the military strategies and principles are only reciting the words and text from military books; as a result, they will be tempted by the enemy in a war. If a general is able to make the enemy lose their spirit and morale, he could be entrusted to lead troops and command military operations.”
Military Strategy Classics of Ancient China Page 54