by Paul Zollo
Yeah, I liked that one. We played that one quite a bit during that period. It was fun.
Do you remember writing “Change Of Heart”?
I was trying to write an ELO kind of song. I think the inspiration was “Do Ya.” [Sings chordal pattern.] I was a fan of ELO. And I knew of Jeff Lynne when he was in The Move. We used to listen to The Move. We’d get the records imported from England. Benmont would get them.
So I actually wanted Jeff Lynne to produce our second record, You’re Gonna Get It. I don’t know why it never happened. I think it was that he was too busy, and he didn’t do outside productions at the time. But I wanted to bring him in then and do a record with him. I always had this hope that we could get to work with him.
You sensed that coming.
Well, I guess I did. I certainly wanted it to happen. And then it just happened by accident, long after I’d forgotten about it.
I loved the way [Jeff Lynne] used chords. So I was trying to write my own kind of riff like that [on “Change Of Heart”]. [Sings riff] And I think the words came later. I don’t think I had the title till later.
“Change Of Heart” begins and ends with a big crunchy guitar, and you said you considered doing it live, but you and Mike said you didn’t want to go back to that place where the song came from.
We didn’t want to do it live. But we did play it live. We played it so much in those days. And we did do it live later. We did it just out of the blue when we did The Last DJ shows. For the encore we did a few oldies for the people for sitting through the new album. So that just came out of the blue one night and we played it. I think it just kind of took us back—as Mike said, ‘It feels like I’m in Germany’—we played it through Europe, we were playing it every night, and we got really sick of it, and ended up not playing it anymore. But, yeah, I think I wanted it to sound like “Do Ya?” [Sings crunchy guitar chords] I wanted to do something that had that kind of guitar, and that was the kick-off point. Not one of my great songs. But it’s a good rock song.
You wrote the song “Finding Out” with Mike. Another one with great drums.
Yeah, great drums. Stanley played really good on that album. I remember Howie doing harmonies, and he sang some really good harmonies on that.
It’s got some good lines, “I don’t think pain is so romantic/I’m just a working man/I feel each day go by…”
Yeah. Well, [pain] is not that romantic. Though it’s certainly been romanticized. In songs and in literature. Sometimes the idea that you have to suffer to create a good piece of art is a really dangerous idea. It’s not true. I don’t think so.
Many songwriters have said when their life turmoil, that’s when they write their best work.
It’s not necessary. You don’t want to best yourself up just to write a song. Even if I’m writing a sad song, I’m usually happy when I write it. When you’re sad, you don’t feel like writing. I don’t. There are probably people who are different. But I tend to write when I’m really up. And not when I’m down. I don’t even like playing music when I’m down.
That song ends with, “I have to thank you baby/honey I must confess/You have pulled me from this river of loneliness. …”
Yeah. The song is about finding out, and finding something you didn’t know. So maybe that was the punch line. It’s about self-realization.
How about the song “We Stand A Chance”?
I wrote it on the piano, though strangely enough I wound up playing the guitar, the only guitar on the track. And if you listen closely, that’s me on this really distorted guitar. And Mike played the organ on it. Jimmy Iovine was really keen on that song, and we thought it might be the one that people focused on, but it turned out to be “You Got Lucky” instead.
“Straight Into Darkness” is a powerful song.
That’s a good one, yeah. That was in that same period. I remember it really came to life when we turned it over to the piano. We let the piano take it.
It’s got a beautiful piano intro.
Yeah. We were trying to do it more guitar-based, when we first started recording it. When it got turned over to the piano is when it really started to show what it was about.
Sometimes it really takes a lot of work. To me, the song’s as good as the record. If I can’t make a good record of it, I’m not interested in it. Sometimes the songs won’t reveal themselves to you until you find the right sound and the right recording of it. And that was one like that. You couldn’t really get everybody grooving the same way until we went over to the piano, and then everybody instinctually found what to play. But that’s part of working with a group.
That was always my idea with The Heartbreakers: Good or bad, we keep the same people together and that way we’ll create a thing that’s unique to us. We don’t hire five new guys for each record. Sometimes that has its faults. And it’s a little bit of a struggle. But that was when that song came to life, when the piano took over.
It’s a dark song, about darkness of course, but it ends optimistically: “I don’t believe the good times are over/I don’t believe the thrill is all gone.”
Yeah, there’s some hope in it. It wasn’t just a downer. [Laughs]
“The Same Old You” is another Mike Campbell collaboration.
It had a good beat and a good groove. Not a real serious thing, just a good time. You wrote “Between Two Worlds” with Mike. It’s got a cool intro: Before the drum kicks in, the piano hits chords on every beat, and then the guitars are woven in, and then the drums enter.
That’s a good example of The Heartbreakers as a live group, just finding their way. We cut that at the old RCA studios on Sunset Boulevard. That was where [the Stones] cut “Satisfaction.” A lot of great records were cut there. We cut “Between Two Worlds” and “We Stand A Chance” there. And that was a totally live track. And that intro just kind of happened. It wasn’t rehearsed or planned. It just happened. And it was a killer intro. And I actually played some lead guitar on that track. That sold going out at the end is me. Which was really rare for those days. And I remember playing the riff at the beginning. I’m playing through a very little 10-inch amp that was really over-driven, so it had this particular distortion. I think I played on both those tracks with that amp. That intro was just something that happened. And that’s the kind of band we are. If you let us have our way, sometimes we can just stumble into something great.
The song “A Wasted Life” is a very tender song, with a really sweet melody.
[Sings song.] Yeah, that was another one where the record turned out to be an entirely different arrangement than what I came in with. I can’t remember exactly what it was. I did a demo at home, and it just wouldn’t work, the way I had first sort of realized it in my mind didn’t translate. And really late in the session, somebody just said, ‘Let’s play it completely different. Let’s look at it in an entirely different way. Let’s just start to play and see what happens.’ And that’s what happened. We just played it once, with Benmont out in front. And that’s the way it came out.
It’s an affirmative song: “Don’t have a wasted life/I love you too much.”
Yeah, it’s very positive. There again, it has something to say. It’s a friendship song, just kind of being sweet.
southern accents. 1985
“Rebels,” from Southern Accents, is a classic, and has that great visceral feeling of moving from the I chord to the VI chord, the C to the A minor. How did that one come together?
That is a good progression. You can do a lot with that. That was a tough song to record. We really struggled with that. The horns on it. I had this idea that it should have horns on it. And that was new ground for us, and it was hard, Finding room in the arrangement for the horns. And I think that the demo I made, with nothing on it but me and the guitar, was much better. And then there’s the whole story of me smashing my hand, which we’ve discussed.
It has some beautiful lines in it: “Even before my father’s father/They called us all rebels/While they burned
our cornfields/And left our cities leveled/I can still feel the eyes/Of those blue-bellied devils/Yeah, when I’m walking ‘round at night/Through the concrete and metal”
I did like the lyric. I really did. I liked “one foot in the grave/and one foot on the pedal…” And there’s the whole story about the guy getting picked up in jail by his girlfriend. I had this whole little movie of it in my head.
Some people have seen “Rebels” as a song about history. Some critics said it was a muddled history.
I don’t see why. It isn’t, really. It’s a story song, about a guy being arrested for being drunk and disorderly. And his frustration at basically what a screw-up he is. And he’s trying to blame it on his heritage. And it’s not really working. And in the last verse, it talks about the cornfields and the cities being burned. And They were. And in the South, to this day, there’s a little bit of that grudge still being carried.
If you think about Atlanta, it was certainly burned to the ground. Even in the album, I wasn’t trying to cover the entire South and its story. I was trying to use it as a jumping-off place. It’s a well-written song. But it wasn’t meant to be the theme of the South or anything. It was just a story, really, that dealt with this person who had problems and was trying to lay it on his heritage. You know, I only got two or three minutes to get it all in. So I think I did a pretty good job of it.
Yeah, it’s a very powerful song.
It’s another one Bugs won’t listen to.
Why?
Because we worked on it for a year. I was never happy with it. I never felt it came out good. I felt I could have done a much better vocal than I did. I have a demo that’s much better than the record, because I sang it better. I sang it clear. And I think cocaine was popular at that time. And I think we were taking cocaine. It was one of the only times in the studio that we were on drugs. But there was cocaine going around, and I think it affected my judgment. I don’t think I sang that song as well as I could have.
The horns work nicely on “Rebels” but they are mixed very low. As opposed to “The Best Of Everything,” also on Southern Accents, in which the horns are really bright and prominent in the mix. And you had the late Richard Manuel singing harmonies on it.
He was one of my favorite singers. But I wasn’t there when he did it. Robbie [Robertson] did that.
You originally cut “The Best Of Everything” for Hard Promises?
Yeah. There wasn’t space for it on that album. We usually cut more than we needed. I’m glad we didn’t use it, because I think it was a much better record after Robbie Robertson got a hold of it. I think he really made a much better record by the things he added to it.
It may be one of the best songs I ever wrote. It’s a really good song, and he really did it justice. I’m still quite proud of that song. We had the song, and Robbie was the musical director for a film, The King of Comedy, and he asked me if I had something, and I told him I had this real good song which would be perfect for it. He said, ‘Well, would you mind if I took it and added some horns?’ And I said, “Sure, give it a try.’ ‘Cause I always liked The Band’s horn arrangements. And he took it, and he edited it down a little bit. There was one more verse, which was kind of superfluous. And it came out great. I was really pleased with it.
So he finished the whole mix and all without your input?
Yeah. He didn’t even want me coming in the studio. I gave it to him with the understanding that he could take it away and finish it. And then by chance one night I was working across the hall from him. And I was gonna walk over and look in, and he actually barred the door. He said, ‘No, no, no, don’t come in. Stay away until I’m done. Then if you don’t like it, we’ll change it.’ And I didn’t change a note. When I heard it I thought, ‘Damn, this is great.’ [Laughs] I wish they were all that easy.
He actually edited the song down a little bit. I don’t remember what he cut out, but he made the song a little more concise. I don’t think he took any lyrics out, but he made the song a little shorter. And then he had that beautiful arrangement of how he did the horns, and had Richard Manuel sing that verse with me in harmony.
Did you like that sound, of your voices together?
Oh, it was a dream come true. I really looked up to him as a singer. I’m kind of glad I wasn’t there, because I might have screwed it up. [Laughs] Robbie did a great job. I’m in his debt.
It’s amazing to me that within the period of craziness which was ensuing that you wrote the title song “Southern Accents,” which is such a gorgeous and spiritual song.
I remember writing it well. It was around 4. Really, really late in the morning. Or early in the morning. I was all alone in the studio, everybody had gone, and I was playing the piano. And boom, here’s this song.
In F.
In F! Yeah, on the piano. One of the best songs I ever wrote. It just appeared. I did it all real fast on the piano. And I had a cassette deck, and I remember I taped it on the cassette deck. And I couldn’t go to sleep, I was so excited about it. [Laughs] So that was a lot of fun. I got Jack Nitzsche [arranger/composer], who’s one of my heroes, I got him to do the strings. That was the first time we ever used an orchestra.
Beautiful string part.
Yeah. And that was a track I was really happy about. I thought it came out really well.
Some people have said it’s your “Let It Be.” Have you heard that?
No, but that’s a pretty good analogy for that one.
It’s got that beautiful bridge. The bridge is great.
I loved the bridge. The bridge was what made it for me, when I found that. I hit those chords. Sometimes you have a lot of tries for a bridge. I actually just hit those chords on my first pass through. I just went, ‘Oh boy, I got it!’ It was such a great feeling. That’s what makes you keep doing this. You get something like that. So that was a really, great, great moment for me, when I wrote that song. I remember it really well. I don’t remember a lot of them, but I remember just playing that cassette over and over, and I stayed up all night. I couldn’t possibly go to sleep. I was so excited. I wanted to play it for somebody. [Laughs]
You were in your home studio?
That was in the home studio. I couldn’t wait for the guys to come over. It was like, ‘Wow, I’ve really got this thing down.’ That was exciting, man. Everything was taped on cassette in those days. And I had a little cassette player that sat on the piano. And luckily I just turned that on and got it all on the cassette. So we made the record the following day. We made it right there in my studio. I think it’s Ben and me on the piano. He liked the way I played it. Because I have this kind of primitive way of playing the piano. So I have my own way of doing it. I think on the bridge, that’s me on the piano. Because he said he liked the way I played the bridge, and he wanted me to do the piano. But I wanted him to do it. So the compromise was we did a pass with Ben, and a pass with me. And then they used my pass just for the bridge. And there’s not much else on it. There’s a bass and side-stick on the drums. And that’s about it.
It’s one of the things that makes the album great.
Oh yeah. You couldn’t have done the album without it. You had to have that.
Did you have that title before you wrote the song?
[Pause] I think when I started working on it, I had the title. Because that’s what got me off on that trip, that title. I thought, ‘Ah, this is a great idea, because the South is so rich. It’s just this mythic kind of place.’
It’s one of my better songs.
I love the line about the drunk-tank in Atlanta.
I’d be lucky to write even one more on that level. That song really came to life when I heard Johnny Cash’s version. The “drunk tank” line. I really believed it when I heard him sing it. [Laughs] “Think I might go work Orlando, if those orange groves don’t freeze…” Cause that used to put people out of work, when the frost came in.
It was just one of those magic moments, writing that song. It’s really gratifying, if
you’re a songwriter, to get one of those. It really does make it all worthwhile. To me it did. This is a pay-off for me.
The song has the dream about your mother appearing. Did you really have that dream?
[Pause] No, I don’t think so. Maybe it was. I don’t think so.
How about the song “Make It Better (Forget About Me)”?
I hate that song. It’s just trash. It was Dave just trying to get me to knock a song out. Just write a song for the sake of writing one. And I think that’s what it sounds like to me. It’s one of the few that I just don’t like. I like a lot of our work. I’m pretty proud of most of it. That one was the result of some misguided people. We didn’t really know what we were doing.
Yet you included it on the album.
Yeah. A mistake. There were better songs that should have been on the album.
How about the song “Spike”? It’s a funny song.
I like that one. I assumed the identity of a really kind of ignorant redneck guy who is kind of shaken up when he sees a punk rocker. I sang it from that point of view. When you do that, you’ve got to be really careful, because there’s a certain part of the audience that really thinks it’s you and your point of view.
They don’t get that you slid into a character.
Unless you’re Randy Newman, and you do it in every song.
Yeah, he does that a lot. And I’ve done it some. But not as often as he does it. But I thought it worked in that instance.
A very late-night session on that one. I remember we cut that very late at night, really stoned. We were all pretty high. [Laughs] Higher than we would normally be. And so it has that kind of feel to it. But it’s a funny song. “Hey Spike… You’re scarin’ my wife… tell me about life…”
It’s low in your register.
Well, I was trying to be a different guy. So I went down low for it.
You have a number of different voices and different tones that you use. You have an Elvis quality that you use sometimes.