“Maggie,” he said to me, “you knew them. You just didn’t know they were gay.”
And that was surely the truth! In our day it was this silent thing, and it had to have been awful for them. I always thought certain guys were just effeminate, or—God help me, this is the word we used then—sissies. [Oh shit, here we go.] And I just never got beyond that. I never knew what we’re finding out now, that you’re actually born gay. I thought you wanted to be gay. Really, that’s what our generation thought. There was one kid I remember from high school—Jim [I guarantee you, now it’s James] I’ll call him since I don’t really recall his name—who I’d pass by occasionally, and he’d have makeup on. [Maggie’s first drag queen!]
I’d say, “Hi, Jim, how you doing?”
“Pretty good, Marge,” he’d say.
Maybe I’d say, “Are you playing ball tonight?” [Oh yeah, just not the kind you’re thinking of, Marge.] But that was really it. I’d wonder why he was wearing makeup, but I honestly didn’t know then that gays sometimes wore it. Later, after I was married, there was a fella that Johnny worked with that people thought might have been gay. He was good-looking, a darling guy, and he came to all the parties. And I remember later, he would bring a guy to some of our parties, and this guy he brought was very, very out. He might have described him as a “buddy” or a “friend.” But he was so cute, I’d always ask if he’d found a girlfriend. I’ll be honest, I was very dumb about gays then.
Better-Looking Than All the Girls
KATHY: Mom, let me ask you something. When I was “dating” Tom Murphy in high school, who is now out and proud and has a nice boyfriend, did you ever think Tom was gay?
MAGGIE: Never. As God is my judge. All I knew was, I always thought he was so cute. Remember when you guys were in that Babes at Sea with all the sailors?
K: Dames at Sea, Mom. So the fact that I was in a musical called Dames at Sea with my boyfriend, who wore a sailor’s suit, and who was better-looking than I was, wasn’t a red flag?
M: I tell ya, he was better-looking than all the girls in the cast! I said to your dad, “I hate to say this, but Tom’s better-looking than any girl onstage!”
K: “Better-looking than all the girls.” You didn’t associate that with being gay?
M: Never.
K: Didn’t your generation have the term “confirmed bachelor”? When you saw someone who was good-looking, in good shape, and hadn’t married, what did you think?
M: That he hadn’t found the right woman, or just didn’t want to be married.
K: Well, both of those things could be true. What about in the movies of your day, Mom? There was always a flamboyant sidekick in those thirties movies.
M: Well, we loved those characters. They were very funny. Like, I always heard Noël Coward was gay.
K: What?? Noël Coward was gay?
M: Ha ha, Kathy. But you see, he was so great, who cared? I didn’t. All I knew was, he was funny as hell.
K: Did you ever hear that songwriter Cole Porter was gay?
M: Now see, I was shocked by that when I eventually found out, because he had a wife. He had . . . what do you call them? Ringers?
K: Ringers? You mean like a cock ring?
M: No! No, no, no. A somebody, a companion . . .
K: A beard?
M: Yes, a beard.
K: How did it go from “beard” to “ringer”? Mom, if you went into a gay sex shop and said, “Give me a ringer,” believe me, they’re not going to give you a single woman.
M: Anyway, as I said, we never really knew what “gay” meant. We certainly didn’t think it meant they would want to marry other men . . .
K: Or flip houses in Palm Springs. So somehow, in your generation, it went from calling them “sissies,” pointing and laughing in church, to hoping to God that if you buy a home, it’s from a gay man. Because you wouldn’t want to buy a house from a straight person, would you?
M: No. There’s been a tremendous change.
As you can guess, it was really through Kathy that I got educated about gays, and only after we moved to Los Angeles from Chicago. I remember when she was performing at the Groundlings in the eighties and she’d tell me about doing a walk for AIDS. “Ma, you’ve got to donate something,” she’d tell me.
“All right, I’ll give you ten bucks,” I said.
“Ten bucks! I need more than that,” she said.
I gave her $25, which she was more satisfied with, but as I got to know some gays through Kathy, it became clear how much more needed to be done. It became very easy to contribute whenever I could, especially as Kathy started to do more benefits for their causes.
I’ve Never Seen Costumes Like That in My Life
KATHY: Okay, Mom, hold it. I want to give you some props here when it comes to gay awareness. Remember when I was in my twenties, and we were living in that Santa Monica apartment, and you came home once and said, “Dad and I stumbled upon the greatest thing.”
MAGGIE: Oh yes. The Halloween parade on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood.
K: Yes! You said, “There were all these guys . . .” and I knew you meant “gay people.”
M: Right. I said I’d never seen costumes like that in my life! They were doing skits and everything.
K: You said some were dressed as cheerleaders, and one guy was running around as Joan Crawford yelling, “No more wire hangers EVER!”
M: Of course. Johnny and I picked out a café and sat there all night and watched the show. It was very enjoyable. I had never seen anything like that before, and I’ve been to a lot of parades. We realized it was their way of showing they were glad to be out. Of course, they could get a little outrageous about it. A little in your face. There was always somebody as a nun.
K: Always a Baby Jane. Always a Cher.
M: If not Judy, there’d be a Liza. The leather stuff I wasn’t keen on.
K: It’s not like you haven’t seen gay guys in assless chaps, Mom. Because you have. Certainly a different scene from the Fourth of July parades in Forest Park, Illinois. Let’s face it, Mom, you actually exposed me to gay pride parades.
M: And then we went a lot after we moved to West Hollywood.
K: You lived three blocks from it.
M: We wanted to support it. Of course, after a while it got pretty crowded and raucous. It became harder to get a good seat, because they’d be taken up so early. But for a long time we went every year.
K: You and Dad went to gay bars, too. I mean, that was the neighborhood.
M: A great bar is a great bar. We’d go to any bar.
K: And your favorite was . . .
M: Rage.
K: Okay, now you see a bar called Rage, and what do you think the name signifies?
M: It could be “We’ve got a rage for this bar!” I never really gave it a lot of thought.
K: Were you regulars at the Mother Lode?
M: I don’t think so. But you know the funniest thing Johnny and I ever did? We did it so innocently. We were looking for a book, and so we went to that one bookstore . . .
K: No!! Circus of Books?!?!?
M: When I think about that, oh my God . . .
K: Okay, now I don’t need to explain Circus of Books for my gays, but for everyone else, it’s so obviously a gay porn bookstore, from the neon sign to the mass of gay hustlers just standing around outside in tight jeans and smoking cigarettes. Mom, what were you thinking when you saw the male hustlers outside?
M: We didn’t know they were hustlers. We just thought they were guys hanging around. But then we were hardly in the door and every book was nudes and poses and all that stuff. They were poses I’d never seen before and never want to see again.
K: Guys in missionary positions?
M: Don’t say “missionary,” Kathy. You’re offending my religion.
K: Sorry, I didn’t know I was going too far while you were in a gay porn bookstore.
M: Anyway, we did laugh about it. Johnny and I just looked at each ot
her and thought, “We’re not gonna find The Catcher in the Rye here.”
K: Well, a different kind of catcher and a different kind of rye. Mom, what did the guy behind the register do when he saw you and Dad come in?
M: He kind of looked like, “What are they doing here?” We actually laughed about it.
K: Do you think he thought you wanted to swing?
M: Probably.
K: Were you each other’s ringers?
M: Maybe so!
K: So he was probably disappointed that he lost your business.
M: Oh God, so after we were laughing, we thought, “Uh-oh, what if, as we’re walking out, our friends drive by and see us?” They’d wonder what in the world Margie and John are doing!
K: Whoa, whoa, stop for one second. In a million years, what were the chances that the remaining friends of yours that were even living were going to drive down Santa Monica Boulevard past Circus of Books with its throngs of male prostitutes, on the way to church, and say, “Hey, there’s John and Maggie Griffin!”?
M: Kathy, it could have happened. Anyway, we’ve been to other gay bookstores. Another neighbor we had, John Morgan Wilson, had a book coming out, and we went to a reading he gave at another one . . .
K: A Different Light?
M: That might have been it. Anyway, that was really nice. Swellest guy you’d ever want to know.
K: Don’t swear, Mom. “Swellest guy.” If that’s not gay, I don’t know what is.
As I got to know more gays, I got to see how different many of them are. If you watch Kathy’s show, you might remember the contest she held in which the prize was for someone to come live at Kathy’s house with her for a weekend. He’d get to see her perform, get wined and dined and shown Hollywood, and be treated like an honored guest. Now, the gays I’d gotten to know were pretty savvy about everything Hollywood. Some of them were so up-to-date with what’s going on, they’d know more gossip than Kathy did! That’s pretty hard to imagine. But at the very least, gays know about people like Bette Davis and all the old stars, but they also know the real young hot new stars! Even a gay who lives in Peoria!
Well, this one young gay who won the contest was from Cleveland, and it was funny, he didn’t know anything about Hollywood! He literally knew nothing about that kind of lively gay style, or gay anything. I think it was very frustrating for Kathy. So I said, “All I know is the difference between a Cleveland gay and a California gay? Worlds apart!”
No one can say all gays are the same, I guess!
Me with those lovely lesbians Ellen DeGeneres and Portia de Rossi.
Take lesbians. I don’t know much about lesbians, but don’t you think it’s kind of a shame we always assume lesbians are kind of husky and mannish-looking? Maybe that’s because that’s what they’re shown as on television. But there are a lot of beautiful lesbians, too! Of course, when people see a couple of girls out together, nobody assumes they’re lesbians. Straight girls are famous for living together, going out to eat together, seeing movies together, shopping. They even call each other girlfriends when they’re really just friends. But when two guys are seen out together eating or at a movie, they’re thought to be gay. And I don’t think it’s right to assume that. Even if they are gay! [Like when Ryan Seacrest goes out to dinner with Clay Aiken. It’s wrong for people to assume anything.]
But what I really don’t think is right is the discrimination and prejudice that gays still encounter. It’s shameful. And the nasty things people do, beating them up and stuff like that. People who do that are cowards, real jerks.
These guys and women who are brave enough to come out, I give ’em a lot of credit. A lot of gays who recognize me on the street and start talking to me will tell me that their parents have disowned them. That’s so sad. Usually it’s the dads. Fathers are apparently more upset, and the mothers come around most of the time, I hear. That’s why I was so excited to be with Kathy last year as a part of the West Hollywood rally against the gay marriage ban Proposition 8, which you might have seen because it was covered on Kathy’s show. I went even though I really don’t like to be in big crowds. But I got to be in a wheelchair at least—I don’t know how Kathy walked as much as she did. [God knows I wasn’t the only one in four-inch heels that day.]
Then, when I saw everyone with signs, I wanted one, too! So I got one to hold in the wheelchair that said GAY MARRIAGE, I’LL DRINK TO THAT! I thought that was funny.
But I was there because I had something to say as a parent. We got up onstage and I told the crowd I wanted to encourage parents to stick up for their gay kids when they come out, and that them wanting to get married is a wonderful thing. Because when I hear these sad stories from gay sons and daughters, I think the parents are the ones who lose out when they shun their own kids.
I could never cut off a kid. It would be my loss.
It’s got to be hard, but at the same time, what these young men and women are doing by coming out is also wonderful. I look at that “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy in the military and I think it’s nuts. I know there’s a lot of prejudice still, and I don’t think gays would go after straight guys in a military situation, but a good soldier is a good soldier. [And a naughty soldier is even better.] What the hell’s the difference?
That’s why it’s so great that the gays have come along like they have, establishing their own places, raising kids, and doing such a nice job at it. I think gay marriage is going to happen. It might take a little longer than the gays want, and it’ll be a fight, but that’s just because it’s a totally different concept for a lot of people—especially from my generation—and it’ll be hard for them to accept at first.
I’ve been asked how I can reconcile fighting for gay marriage when I was raised a traditional Catholic. Well, on one level, it’s pretty simple. We never talked about gays then! You were taught to be a good parent, to be a good wife or husband, not to cheat. Good things, you know? We knew this other gay couple in our condo building, each of the men had been married before and had kids. Then they came out, because they had to do the natural thing, and now the kids they’d had from their marriages were in high school. Well, when you’d talk with them, they’d discuss their worries about the kids getting with the wrong crowd, or into drugs, how they wanted their male kid—who’s straight—to meet a nice girl, and not one of these flibbertigibbets [read: whores], and how they wanted to put their kids through college and how expensive it was, but it was the right thing to do. And I listened and thought, “Gee, I feel like I’m talking to regular parents.” The same concerns, the same worries we all have.
Anybody who’s a good parent, I’m all for.
Kids have been damaged enough by all the divorce and cheating and stuff that goes on. Maybe it’ll be a lot better for them if gays get to marry. Being new at it, just being allowed to do it, gays and lesbians might treasure it a lot more, because it’s something they will have fought for. They’ll be on their best behavior, probably!
I still have friends who wonder why I feel this way. I don’t try to convince them, really. I know some wouldn’t mind it, if it wasn’t called marriage. A union, maybe. Nobody bats an eye at “He’s my partner” or “I’m her partner” anymore. But see, the words are different. And a lot of gays won’t accept that, because it makes them different once again. But don’t try to convince me we shouldn’t have gay marriage because straight ones are automatically better. Not with the amount of divorces I see.
Younger people accept the idea of gay marriage more, I notice. And that’s where it’ll have to be won. It may sound morbid, but it will be a lot better when our generation dies off!
So keep tipping it, gays and lesbians!
Olde-Tyme Gays vs. Modern Gays
Now that I think of it, when we were growing up, gay people existed. They were around, but we just thought they were more colorful than other people. I love my modern gays but things were much different back in my day . . .
Olde-Tyme Gays
Much ni
cer mustaches, carefully groomed and often waxed into fanciful shapes
Used to wear bright colors like pink and purple and often had gorgeous patterns on their clothes, like paisley or a big houndstooth or even a bright gingham or checkerboard. Take Liberace, for example, that man knew how to put an outfit together. Of course, many of them always wore a neckerchief.
Gays not only wore more colorful clothes, they always got dressed up, but then again so did everyone.
A lot quieter about being gay, that’s probably why we never knew they were gay.
Used to be married to women, and they liked it.
Used to be much funnier. We had Paul Lynde and Charles Nelson Reilly. Those two were a hoot and a half!
Speaking of Bruce, gays used to all be named Bruce or Irving, so you knew they were going to be colorful fellows just by their names.
Modern Gays
Don’t really wear mustaches at all, or just have a carefully maintained coat of stubble, which looks kinda dirty if you ask me.
I miss neckerchiefs.
I miss men wearing hats and ladies wearing dresses.
Wear shirts with gay slogans printed right on the front!
I’m all for marriage equality, but there are some very nice girls out there who are trying to find a husband, like that sweet Tiffany.
Now we’ve got that weirdo Bruce Vilanch, but at least his mom supports him.
Now they have names like Mike and Robert and Dave. It’s a little confusing.
Maggie-isms
[Kathy here. If you watch Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List, you’ll know that people are immediately drawn to my mom but whenever they get up close, there are a few terms she uses they aren’t familiar with right away. Here, I’m providing a helpful glossary of those phrases, with my own very helpful explanations for what those terms really mean.]
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