So the alternative? There is none. There is, though, changing how we think about this abstraction.
You’ve admitted “‘I’m just a standard bearer of eros. . . .” Would you say that goes back to your first punk gigs as well—and how does it sit in relationship to, say, pathos, or ethos, which many people link to punk?
I suppressed this early on. Like I said, the vibe of all of the D.C. guys who I used to see when they came up to New York was very different and very anti-sex. It took a few years for me to realize this was exactly the last place I want to be in my head and in my heart.
But pathos, or the ethos of pathos, or bathos, well, that’s complicated, and I see post-punk as much more comfortable with its sexuality than punk ever was, so answering your question here is not so easy.
By far, you have one of the most distinct voices in music, which I always felt was akin to David Thomas of Pere Ubu—voice as unbound instrument, not simply a conveyor belt of lyrics. Was your approach, perhaps like Mike Watt, inspired by a punk sense of explore, experiment, and challenge, or something else? John Zorn. . . .
No. I remember telling Biafra about Oxbow before I had finished it, saying, “I just want to capture the sounds that are in my head,” and he sagely responded, “Don’t we all?” Even if the truth is that most singers don’t want to do this. I mean I really like Little Richard, Glen Campbell, and a half a dozen other singers, but my head has me sounding like I sound. And it changes from Oxbow record to Oxbow record, which many would miss if they were not paying close enough attention.
You also seem to convey a true challenge to binary gender roles—your physique might be called hypermasculine, but your performances and narratives, like on “Gal” with its monologue about tears, conveys an alternative masculinity. Do you feel you are at the front lines of gender?
Front lines? [laughs] Not so much, but you do know I have four sisters, and there were only two males born into my family (and I was one) in like a fifty-year stretch. So I grew up with aunts, female cousins, grandmas, great-grandmas, my mom. I spent waaaaaay more time with women my whole life, so despite my really typical masculine pursuits my identification has always been primarily feminine. My typical masculine pursuits—the fighting, the knives, guns, martial arts, and so on—are probably done to protect this identification. I mean, I used to be a bouncer for strippers, and I never bought the whole stripper lie, and I identified with them much more as first performers and of course real actual humans, which sharpened my fury when I had to throw guys out for infractions. Not saying I was not interested in fucking, but saying that my approach is nuanced and not so dictated by the very simple and simplified media approach to it all, which makes for a very confusing Oxbow show—confusing for viewers, not for me at all.
How does the book form serve you differently than a fight space or gig space?
It is a place to articulate. Very different from a fight or a gig.
Are they your multiple selves (author, fighter, singer) finding different forms, or might they present one holistic approach—a unified performance across mediums?
The latter, most assuredly.
You worked with Kathy Acker, too, considered one of punk’s inventive literary forces. Her fiction is filled with a sense of the avant-garde and the aggressive/atavistic, not unlike your own music, yet her narrative on “The Stabbing Hand” is so subdued, even mild. Was that intentional—did you want to channel her more feral side?
Well, I don’t know if you ever met Kathy, but she was a real sweetheart and sort of like me was probably projecting to protect. So, next, to us—what we were doing. It seemed to make sense for her to do as she did. Pussy King of the Pirates was the piece that she appended to “The Stabbing Hand,” and it was perfect in its own way.
You’ve said the nonprofessional fight scene is “where punk rock was at in 1982, ’83 when some people were starting to make real money, but it’s still largely unaffected by the money and driven by passion.” I know you’ve been involved with karate and boxing since 1983, so is untrammeled pure passion what remains singular and pure in both amateur fighting and punk?
Very much not so at this point. That is, you can’t do either without careerist notions at this point. Many people have made huge amounts of money, for good or ill, with punk rock. Keep in mind, largely, I support each and every one of them. Green Day, Rancid, Bad Religion? I’m really really happy with how they’ve made it work for them and succeeded.
America really, despite claims to the opposite, hates winners. Me? I’m OK with winners. Especially thems that share their winnings.
And the same could be said of fighting at this point. But fighting, as with punk, still has people involved for whom their exercise of the art answers some deep emotional needs and really comes closest to being the center searched for than many other pursuits might or have, and they may not make a nickel doing it and do not care at all.
You talked about seeing the Bad Brains and Black Flag as transformative, and you had a Grateful Dead–like devotion to them. In what sense were they different than others?
Walking it like they talked it. I mean you do realize that the self-destructiveness Black Flag sang about, as well as the “rising above,” was built into their DNA . . . their very sort of specific fucked-up DNA. I mean what’s happening with Black Flag now could not have happened any other way, and it’s really amazing when you think about it because they could have been richer and more famous and successful than God at this point, but they voted with their hearts and so . . . destruction of legacy, a steadfast refusal to profit off of it in any sort of meaningful way. All of it.
That being said, I am more impressed with what Rollins, Mugger, and Raymond Pettibon have wrought out of all of that than many others associated with that scene.
And the Bad Brains? Very much sort of the same deal: they have aggressively resisted any and all attempts at being as hugely successful as we know they all could have been, which is a really situation specific kind of “fuck you” that I do not at all have the intestinal fortitude to have pulled off myself.
I know John Joseph (Cro-mags) was equally transformed by the Bad Brains and is now an endurance sport triathlete. Do you feel you share a common path with him?
I know John and have for years and years. Last time we spent any time together was at some cool corporate event in Laramie, Wyoming, for Scion. But his path/deal are very, very, very, different from mine it seems. I used to be a distance swimmer in high school though.
More recently, you configured Black Face with Chuck Dukowski and released a really powerful 7-inch, but the whole thing seems to have imploded.Why? The issue seems murky.
See [my last answer] regarding the Black Flag nimbus of agita. Everything was right about it outside of the fact that, for Chuck, the fact that everything was right about it caused a kind of horror movie concern a la . . . “it’s quiet . . . too quiet.” So, he said there were concerns over the name, which he chose, but which Ian MacKaye presumably came down on him for. And then after that came a very singular and pointed desire to scuttle it—telling the label to change the name after everything was printed, canceling shows, desires to fire various other band members for ill-defined reasons—eventually ending with a phone call where he stated, “I’m just not feeling it.” So, it goes.
I bear no one ill will. It’s like if someone does not want to have sex with you. You have to assume their reasons are valid for them.
Is race one area that punk rock, and American culture in general, has yet to address honestly?
I’d say, “Who cares?” but based on all of the people around me who seem to, well, there might be some fire where there is smoke, but it’s really an American obsession that I find more boring than many others.
And keep in mind that what I am saying is this: America’s race problems are not my problems, even if I get shot by a Klan card–holding cop . . . not my problem. Like people who were encouraging Obama not to run because of assassination concerns and his r
esponse was great: “I don’t even know how to make sense of that.”
I understand that some people may be bothered by your enjoyment of Al Jolson, yet these same people might listen to Jon Spencer and the Beastie Boys, who seem like mimicry, too.
Jolson was a man of his time and one of the first civil rights supporters back before it would have been assumed that he did this for PR reasons. People’s distaste for him might be for symbolic reasons and might be valid, but I never watch Jolson. I just listen to him.
Looking back at Birth of Tragedy, it seems to be one part transgressive literary fanzine and one part John Giorno system style concept. (Your Fear Power God spoken-word album reminds me of A Diamond Hidden. . . . ) What does it symbolize to you today—and did Allen Ginsberg really try to bully you a bit?
It was a great magazine and still has come closest to what I’d like to be doing editorially but which I can’t because it is to mainstream interests what Oxbow is to mainstream interests.
Yes, Ginsberg did try to bully me. So did Samuel L. Jackson. While the Ginsberg thing had us ultimately being friends/friendly, I still think Jackson is an asshole.
Index
A
Acker, Kathy, 1
Albini, Steve, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3
Allison, Mose, 1
Allman, Duane, 1
Alvin, Dave, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6.1-6.2 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10
Alvin Phil, 1 , 2 , 3
Apples in Stereo See Schneider, Robert
Austin City Limits, 1
Austin, Texas, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13
B
Bakersfield, California, 1
Baltimore, Maryland, 1 , 2
Banks, Russell, 1
Bean, Janet, 1.1-1.2
Beat Generation, 1 , 2
T
The Beatles, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14
B
Beck, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3
Becket, Samuel, 1
Beethoven, 1
Berry, Chuck, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Betts, Dickey, 1
Black Flag, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
T
The Blasters, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4
B
Blue Oyster Cult, 1
Boggs, Doc, 1 , 2
Boston, Massachusetts, 1
Bradfute, George, 1
Brand, Ray, 1 , 2
Braverman, Kate, 1
Brecht, Bertolt, 1
Browne, Jackson, 1
Buckner, Richard, 1.1-1.2
Buffalo, New York, 1 , 2
Bukowski, Charles, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5
Burnett, T. Bone, 1 , 2 , 3
Burroughs, William, 1
Butthole Surfers, 1 , 2
T
The Byrds, 1
C
Cage, Nicolas, 1
Cale, John, 1 , 2
Calexico, 1
Can, 1
Case, Peter, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3 , 4
Case, Neko, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2
Cash, Johnny, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4.1-4.2 , 5 , 6
Cat Power, 1
Cayce, Edgar, 1
Celine, 1
Cheap Trick, 1
Chicago, Illinois, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6.1-6.2 , 7
“
“Chicago,” Carl Sandburg poem, 1
C
Chopin, Frederic, 1.1-1.2
Cinerama See Gedge, David
Clark, Guy, 1 , 2
Clay, Joe, 1
T
The Clash, 1 , 2 , 3
The Clean See Kilgour, David
C
Clinton, President Bill, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Cockburn, Bruce, 1 , 2
Colvin, Shawn, 1 , 2
Copeland, Miles, 1.1-1.2
Coltrane, John, 1
Costello, Elvis, 1 , 2 , 3
T
The Cramps, 1
C
Crash, Darby, 1 , 2 , 3
D
De Sade, Marquis, 1
T
The Dead Kennedys, 1 , 2
D
Dean, James, 1
Debs, Eugene V., 1
DeMent, Iris, 1
Depp, Johnny, 1
Dietrich, Marlene, 1
T
The Dils, 1
D
DiPrima, Diane, 1
Dixieland, 1 , 2
Dixon, Willie, 1 , 2.1-2.2
Doe, John, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3
Downey, California, 1
T
The Doors, 1
D
Duvall, Robert, 1.1-1.2 , 2
Dylan, Bob, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16.1-16.2 , 17 , 18
E
Earle, Steve, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4 , 5 , 6
Elephant 6 Records, 1.1-1.2
Eleventh Dream Day See Bean, Janet
Eliot, T. S., 1 , 2
Ely, Joe, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3 , 4 , 5
Ellington, Duke, 1
Elliott, Ramblin’ Jack, 1 , 2.1-2.2
Ellroy, James, 1
Escovedo, Alejandro, 1.1-1.2
F
Faithful, Marianne, 1
Fante, John, 1.1-1.2
Finley, Karen, 1
Flying Nun Records, 1 , 2
Frank, Robert, 1
Freakwater See Bean, Janet
Froom, Mitchell, 1.1-1.2
Fuller, Bobby, 1
G
Galileo, 1
Gano, Gordon, 1.1-1.2
Gardner, Leonard, 1
Gaultier, Jean Paul, 1
Gauthier, Mary, 1
Gedge, David, 1.1-1.2
Gen X, 1.1-1.2
Gene Loves Jezbel, 1.1-1.2
Genet, Jean, 1
T
The Germs, 1 , 2
G
Gilkyson, Tony, 1
Gilmore, Jimmie Dale, 1 , 2
Ginsberg, Allen, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4 , 5 , 6.1-6.2
Gira, Michael, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3
Griffith, Nanci, 1
Gossip, 1
Grapes, Jack, 1
Grateful Dead, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Green, Pat, 1 , 2
Greer, Herb, 1
Guthrie, Woody, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8
Guy, Buddy, 1
H
Haggard, Merle, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4.1-4.2 , 5 , 6.1-6.2
Hancock, Wayne, 1 , 2 , 3
Harper, Ben, 1.1-1.2
Hendrix, Jimi, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4 , 5 , 6
Herzog, Werner, 1
Hiatt, John, 1 , 2.1-2.2
T
The Hickoids, 1
H
hillbilly ballads, 1
Holiday, Billie, 1
Holly, Buddy, 1 , 2
Hollywood, California, 1 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8
Houston, Cisco, 1
Houston, Texas, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8
Hunter, Robert, 1.1-1.2
Hurt, Mississippi John, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3.1-3.2 , 4.1-4.2
I
Idol, Billy, 1
Ireland, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
J
Jarboe, 1.1-1.2
Jason and the Scorchers, 1 See Ringenberg, Jason
Jefferson Airplane, 1 , 2
Jennings, Waylon, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3
Jethro Tull, 1
Johnson, Robert, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Jolson, Al, 1.1-1.2
Joyce, James, 1
Junior Brown, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6
K
Kaplin, Fats, 1
Keen, Robert Earl, 1.1-1.2
Keen, Steve, 1
Kern, Richard, 1.1-1.2
Kilgour, David, 1.1-1.2
Kingston Trio, 1.1-1.2
T
The Kinks, 1 , 2
K
Kiss, 1
T
The Knitters, 1 , 2
K
Kramer, Wayne, 1.1-1.2
L
Lawrence, D. H., 1 , 2
Leadbelly, 1
Led Zeppelin, 1
Lennon, John, 1
Lewis, Jerry Lee, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3 , 4
Los Angeles, California, 1 , 2 , 3
Los Angeles, the album, 1 , 2
M
Mahal, Taj, 1 , 2 , 3
Malloy, George, 1
Mann, Aimee, 1 , 2 , 3
Manzarek, Ray, 1
Masters, Edgar Lee, 1.1-1.2
MC5, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3.1-3.2
McCrary, Regina, 1
T
The Mekons, 1.1-1.2
M
Memphis, Tennessee, 1 , 2
Mexico, 1 , 2
Mingus, Charles, 1
Minutemen, 1
Mohr, Bill, 1
Mojo, 1 , 2
Monk, Thelonius, 1
Monroe, Bill, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3.1-3.2
Missoula, Montana, 1
Morrissey, Bill, 1 , 2 , 3
Morrow, Corey, 1
MTV, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Muldaur, Geoff, 1.1-1.2
N
Nashville, Tennessee, 1 , 2.1-2.2 , 3 , 4.1-4.2 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9.1-9.2 , 10.1-10.2 , 11 , 12.1-12.2 , 13.1-13.2 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20.1-20.2 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 , 26
Nelson, Willie, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5.1-5.2
Neurosis, 1.1-1.2 , 2.1-2.2
New Jersey, 1 , 2
New Orleans, Louisiana, 1 , 2 , 3
New Mexico, 1 , 2 , 3
New York Dolls, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Newton, Isaac, 1 , 2
Nin, Anais, 1
Northern Ireland, 1.1-1.2
Norway, 1
P
Palmo, Tenzin, 1
Pearl Jam, 1
Peel, John, 1.1-1.2 , 2 , 3
Pere Ubu See Thomas, David
Pet Sounds, 1 , 2.1-2.2
Pfahler, Kembra, 1.1-1.2
Philips, Grant-Lee, 1
Piaf, Edith, 1
Pink Floyd, 1 , 2 , 3
Planet Hollywood, 1
Plimsouls, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 See Case, Peter
Popmatters, 1 , 2 , 3
Presley, Elvis, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6
punk music, 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7.1-7.2 , 8 , 9.1-9.2 , 10 , 11.1-11.2 , 12.1-12.2 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 , 26.1-26.2 , 27 , 28.1-28.2 , 29 , 30 , 31.1-31.2 , 32 , 33 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 37.1-37.2 , 38.1-38.2 , 39 , 40.1-40.2 , 41
Mavericks of Sound Page 28