As always, family and friends gave great support, from my girlfriend, Kate, to my brother, Stephen, and my parents, Ray and Denise Reilly. And of course, my little furry writing buddy, Dido.
To anyone who knows a writer, never underestimate the power of your encouragement.
AN INTERVIEW WITH MATTHEW REILLY
SPOILER WARNING!
The following interview contains SPOILERS from The Four Legendary Kingdoms. Readers who have not yet read the novel are advised to avoid reading this interview as it does give away major plot moments in the book.
Okay, Matthew, you just put the two biggest heroes from your Jack West Jr and Scarecrow series in the same novel! Take us through it all. What inspired you to do this, how did you plan it, and what were you trying to accomplish by doing it?
Very often over the years I’ve been asked by fans, ‘Can you please put Jack and Scarecrow together in a book?’ What many of those very kind people may not have realised was that this had been on my mind, too. I just needed the right story.
To me, the Jack West Jr books are quite different to the Scarecrow novels. Largely this is because of Lily. It was Lily who softened and humanised all the gung-ho military characters, from Gunman and Zoe to Pooh Bear and Jack himself. Those stories also usually take place over a long period of time. In contrast, the Scarecrow novels (at least, to me) are a bit harder-edged. They usually take place over a short time period and the characters are very, very intense—from what Scarecrow has endured with Gant to the rampaging presence of Mother.
When I conceived the story of the Great Games of the Hydra, however, in which each king would choose a few champions to represent him, I realised that I had the chance to bring Scarecrow into Jack’s world.
One thing was very important: The Four Legendary Kingdoms is a Jack West Jr book. The characters of Scarecrow and Mother (and to a lesser extent, Astro) would just make a special appearance in it. From the outset, I said to myself, ‘This book is part of the series that began with Seven Ancient Wonders and continued with The Six Sacred Stones and The Five Greatest Warriors. First and foremost, it has to appeal to the fans of those books. It must be about Jack and his larger journey through a world filled with ancient places and myths, giant galactic-scale danger, and, of course, booby traps.’ I was simply going to add some cool characters to it.
And so I thought about how I would do this.
I didn’t want to just toss Scarecrow in there. He had to be threaded into the story slowly. Early on, we read about a Marine with reflective glasses. Then we glimpse him and his large female companion in the Third Challenge. By this stage, I figured keen readers of my novels would know exactly to whom I was referring (mind you, I was also aware that in this age of social media, word that Scarecrow was in 4LK would get out pretty fast).
To explain his entrance into Jack’s world, I used the common link between the two series of books: the character of Astro, who appeared with Scarecrow in Hell Island and with Jack in 6SS and 5GW. I decided that the best way to bring Scarecrow into Jack’s world was to have poor Astro inadvertently suggest his name to someone looking for a champion.
Then the fun began.
It was tremendous fun for me to write the scene where they meet for the first time. What would these two heroes say to each other? What would Scarecrow make of these ancient challenges and shadowy kings? I figured Scarecrow would be very wary. I also liked the idea that Mother would have met Jack at some point in her career . . . and would naturally greet him in her usual way!
And then came the biggest scene . . .
You made them fight to the death. What inspired that?
When I see a crossover movie like The Avengers, a cool story which brings together heroes from different series, I’m always wondering what the storyteller will do to make it interesting.
When I decided to put Jack and Scarecrow in the same book, I asked myself, ‘What would I, as a reader, want to see?’
The answer was simple: I’d want to see them fight! I’d want to see who’d win a fight between Jack West Jr and Shane ‘Scarecrow’ Schofield. More than that, what if that fight was a fight to the death in front of an audience where one of them had to actually die.
I love the moment in 4LK when Jack steps up onto the combat stage and sees that Scarecrow is his opponent. That was one of the first scenes I conceived for this novel.
As a story, The Four Legendary Kingdoms is very large in scale, even by your standards. Why is this so?
Mainly because, in addition to seeing Jack and Scarecrow fight, I also wanted to see them team up. Now, over the course of seven novels and one novella, Jack and Scarecrow have separately done some pretty big things. I wanted to see what they could achieve as a team. This was the reason for making the Great Games so big and huge, with so many villains like Hades, Chaos, Fear, the Hydra and Mephisto, not to mention Dion, Zaitan, Brigham and the other champions. If you’re gonna have two major heroes team up, then you have to have a supersized story for them to do battle in.
What was the genesis of the idea of four kingdoms ruling the world from the shadows?
I love conspiracy theories, I really do. And when I look at the world, I often wonder if there is something else going on in the background.
The notion of four powerful rulers controlling world affairs from the background is something that I’ve pondered for a long time (as quite a few fans have noted, I first mentioned ‘four kings seated on thrones in front of five warriors’ back in The Six Sacred Stones, which I wrote way back in 2006).
Maybe it comes from the profound dissatisfaction I feel when I look at politicians these days. I rarely get political and I won’t do so here; it’s just that I find politicians and political parties don’t seem to care about representing people anymore: they’re just in it for themselves and the pursuit of temporary power. My notion of the four legendary kingdoms is perhaps my way of saying, ‘if you think our politicians are shallow and venal, you’re right. They’re not actually in charge anyway. The four kingdoms simply allow them to think they are in charge.’
When I announced the title of this book earlier this year, I watched the responses of fans on Facebook and online, watched them speculate on what the legendary kingdoms might be. None anticipated four ‘shadow kingdoms’, so I was kinda pleased about that. I pride myself on coming up with new stuff that keeps my readers guessing!
Tell us about the idea for the Great Games. Where did that come from?
It’s no secret that I enjoy themes of competition in my novels. Contest had it. So did Hover Car Racer. The Tournament, even though it was ultimately about a gifted young girl and her wonderful teacher, also had the chess matches going on in the background.
Competition is fun to watch or read about because it is intrinsically dramatic: two characters want the same thing—to win—and that is the essence of good drama. (This is why legal and hospital shows are so popular on television: in a courtroom, you have two sides who both want to win the case; similarly, in an emergency room, you have a team of doctors trying to save ill or wounded patients; in essence, they want to defeat death.)
With the Great Games I wanted to come up with the coolest, most insane challenges imaginable and hurl my unknowing hero, Jack, into them. It was imperative to me that Jack enter the Games entirely unprepared, not knowing a thing about what is going on. This is why the book starts so quickly, with Jack waking up in the dark, with his head shaved, having been kidnapped . . . and then a minotaur attacks him with a knife. He is on the back foot from the get-go. (I also loved dressing him in a Homer Simpson t-shirt and depriving him of shoes.) This becomes important when the tide turns, and Jack starts surviving against the odds: the people who kidnapped him disrespected him when they did that; and so when Jack dines with Hades in his t-shirt and bare feet, he gets his revenge by disrespecting them.
If The Four Legendary Kingdoms is similar to a
ny of my previous books, the closest is probably Contest. But Contest—written when I was 19 and much less experienced in the ways of the world—does not have the breadth of backstory or cultural relevance that 4LK has. Contest was a good old-fashioned fight to the death. It is a lean, mean thrill-a-minute machine. That’s what it was designed to be. 4LK, on the other hand, is ultimately about ruling and being ruled.
And this leads me to one of the major themes of the book: should a small group of privileged people place themselves above everyone else? In our present-day world, where we see a small subset of the population owning so much wealth, are we creating a world of the elite and the rest? The haves and the have-nots? If the haves own too much, will the have-nots eventually riot?
(That Anthony ‘Tony’ DeSaxe is a super-wealthy mining and shipping magnate whose wealth goes back generations is very deliberate. There are clusters of superwealthy individuals in the world today—from the more reclusive Rothschilds to the well-known modern billionaires like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Mark Zuckerberg. I wanted to suggest that the ones with real power might be the ones you never hear about, the ones who are very quiet about their wealth and influence.)
And connecting the Games to the Labours of Hercules? What inspired that?
I’ve always enjoyed reading about ancient myths and stories, from Hercules and Achilles to tales of Atlantis and fire-breathing dragons (hello, Great Zoo of China). And I love the idea that mythological characters like Hercules, Hades or Zeus were once real people, but that their stories have been distorted over time. The Greek philosopher, Euhemerus, mentioned in the story was a real guy.
Having said that, over the years, I’ve particularly enjoyed reading about the Twelve Labours of Hercules, especially the part where Hercules defeats the Nemean Lion which was famous for its impenetrable hide. (Hercules defeated it, skinned it using its own claws and then used the Lion’s pelt as his own impenetrable armour.) I wanted to re-interpret the Twelve Labours in a modern and interesting way.
And so I re-imagined the Labours as something different: that Hercules was actually a guy overcoming a series of challenges—the challenges of the Great Games. Further to that, he became globally famous because he was the only winner of the Games to win every single challenge.
I particularly enjoyed re-imagining Eurystheus, the cowardly king who sent Hercules on each of his daunting tasks. I made Eurystheus the Lord of the Underworld of that era. This would explain how a cowardly king could boss around a warrior as great as Hercules.
Tell us about the minotaurs.
Just as I’ve enjoyed reading about Hercules over the years, I’ve always been fascinated by the legend of the Minotaur. A man with the head of a bull, lurking inside a labyrinth on Crete, has always just, well, intrigued me.
As with Hercules, I decided to create a real explanation for this legend. My idea was that, firstly, a minotaur was actually someone in a bull-shaped helmet. This isn’t exactly earth-shattering. But the second element would be quite different: my minotaurs would be Neanderthal men in masks.
I like the notion that Neanderthals—a variety of hominid that preceded homo sapiens—walk among us today. It’s entirely possible. I also like the idea that Neanderthals aren’t stupid brutes; they can be as bright as any modern human, if they are allowed to be. And I love the idea that a small group of them has been living in a secret kingdom in a remote corner of India and has never made contact with modern man; such a group would be pure Neanderthals. And I just wanted to have an army on hand that could go on a rampage!
You included a mention of four kings way back in The Six Sacred Stones. Are there any other story elements in The Four Legendary Kingdoms that we should look out for in future novels?
Of course! First, I think it’s pretty clear that the next book will be about Jack’s search for the three secret cities (hmmm, could be a good title there . . .).
Truth be told, one of the reasons it took so long for me to produce a fourth book in the Jack West Jr series (The Five Greatest Warriors came out in 2009) was that I wanted to plan ahead and set up the last three books in the series. So, yes, there are a lot of things mentioned in The Four Legendary Kingdoms that will come back in future books: the three secret cities, the Omega Event, the Trismagi, even some unusual trees . . .
This book is designed to set the scene for three massive books to come. That’s the challenge I set myself and it’s why it took so long to conceive and write it.
Are there any other interesting things in the book that you’d like to share?
Over the years, I’ve been asked by charities to put up a character’s name for auction at fundraising dinners. A few characters in The Four Legendary Kingdoms acquired their names in this way.
Tony and Colleen DeSaxe were the winning bidders at a lovely charity golf day put on by Vivienne Freeman, so of course, I made Tony the Lord of the Underworld. Who wouldn’t want that? (I figured.) George Khalil was the underbidder at the same event, so while Tony became Hades, George became a drunken young prince.
Conor Beard’s parents, Allyn and Julie Beard, successfully bid at Smokey Dawson’s wonderful Charity Challenge Ball, as did Mark and Michelle Finn, who in an original twist, asked me to include their two dogs’ names in a novel. This is how Ash and Roxy got their names (I had been thinking of giving Jack a poodle for a while, so that worked nicely!). And Greg Batman’s name appears in this book after his brother, Gary Batman, bid on his behalf. I did my best, but in a world of superhero movies, it’s hard for an author to name a character Batman (even if you do pronounce it Bat-mun)!
And a very special mention must go to Tim Bowles, a trooper from the Australian Army. Tim has waited for a long time to see his name in one of my novels and I really must publicly thank him for his incredible patience.
At a charity dinner in 2011 in aid of the Welfare Trust (which supports the families of soldiers killed in the line of duty) Tim bid for a character name. He asked me especially if he could be in a Scarecrow novel and fight alongside Scarecrow. Two things conspired against Tim: first, I had just released Scarecrow and the Army of Thieves, so I wasn’t planning a new Scarecrow novel for some time; and second, he made his bid when I was going through a bit of a tough time, so I wasn’t even thinking of writing a book at all. And so he waited patiently. I released The Tournament, but it wasn’t right to put him in that. Then I wrote The Great Zoo of China, which didn’t feature Scarecrow. I asked Tim if he would mind being in a Jack West novel, and he said sure. I didn’t tell him that he would get his wish and fight alongside Scarecrow but in a Jack West book!
As the book was about to go to print, I did tell him, so Tim was one of only a few people outside a very tight inner circle who knew Scarecrow would be appearing in this Jack West book. I even gave him what I think is one of my cooler call signs: Tomahawk. He has only a brief role in this book, but rest assured, when Scarecrow returns, Tomahawk will be with him. Thanks for your patience, Tim.
In early 2015, you moved to Los Angeles. How is it going there? Any movies on the horizon?
It’s been great, thanks, and just what I needed. I wanted to find a new place to live and explore, and to immerse myself in a world of storytellers, which is exactly what L.A. is.
I’ve met some fantastic people already, from brilliant producers and directors to successful screenwriters. I’m constantly doing meetings about film or television adaptations of my novels (The Great Zoo of China has been optioned by Sony; I myself wrote the screenplay for The Tournament and I have met with a top screenwriter about turning the Jack West books into a TV series). If a few pieces fall into place, we could be all systems go, but you’ve got to be in it to win it.
Any final words?
As always, I just want to show people a good time. This was a really fun novel to write. For a long time, fans have asked me if I could put Jack and Scarecrow in the same novel and it was a challenge I threw myself into
. I hope I have delivered the goods in an unexpected and original way that has left those fans and all my other readers feeling satisfied.
It is my job to entertain. So, as I always say, in the end, I just hope you enjoyed the book.
Matthew Reilly
Los Angeles
July 2016
About Matthew Reilly
Matthew Reilly is the internationally bestselling author of the Scarecrow novels: Ice Station, Area 7, Scarecrow, Scarecrow and the Army of Thieves and the novella Hell Island; the Jack West novels: Seven Ancient Wonders, The Six Sacred Stones and The Five Greatest Warriors; and the standalone novels Contest, Temple, Hover Car Racer, The Tournament, Troll Mountain and The Great Zoo of China.
His books are published in over 20 languages, with worldwide sales of over 7 million copies.
Also by Matthew Reilly
CONTEST
ICE STATION
TEMPLE
AREA 7
SCARECROW
HOVER CAR RACER
HELL ISLAND
SEVEN ANCIENT WONDERS
THE SIX SACRED STONES
THE FIVE GREATEST WARRIORS
SCARECROW AND THE ARMY OF THIEVES
THE TOURNAMENT
TROLL MOUNTAIN
THE GREAT ZOO OF CHINA
MORE BESTSELLING TITLES FROM MATTHEW REILLY
Contest
The New York State Library. A brooding labyrinth of towering bookcases, narrow aisles and spiralling staircases. For Doctor Stephen Swain and his daughter, Holly, it is the site of a nightmare. For one night, this historic building is to be the venue for a contest. A contest in which Swain is to compete – whether he likes it or not.
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