And I felt so terrible they were hurt and had to think of a rationale. I said, “Mom, listen: by being a politician, this is the way you get to be a judge!” Aha, you see the notion of the judge is something they understood! The judge wears a robe, the judge sits up high and looks down at the people he’s working with—it was always a he in those days. And so she said, “OK, not so bad. Not so bad, he’s thinking more intelligently than I thought. He’s going to use politics to get to be a judge.” Well, years later, after a couple of tries, I won an election. In the [1982] primary I defeated Ed Koch, and it looked like I might have a good shot to go all the way. And so somebody got at the mic on election day and said, “In addition to everything else, Mario Cuomo will be the first Italian American governor in the history of the state of New York!” And I looked down at my mother standing next to me, and I said in Italian, “Ma, what do you think of your baby now?” And she looked up at me and said in her wonderful broken English, “This is no so bad, but when you gonna be judge, Mario?”
WO: The talk is already started that your son and heir Andrew may run for president, that he could go all the way with his gifts. So say people who’ve seen him on the stump. Do you think you will live to see Andrew in the White House?
MC: The most significant thing I have said this morning, Bill, is how I feel about all of this ceremony we are having about his ascending to the governorship. He has many gifts, no question about it. And if he performs well as governor, then one shouldn’t be surprised that his name will almost automatically be thrown into the hopper. They’re talking about [George E.] Pataki, a good man who was governor for three terms, and he’s thinking about being president. We’re a big state and a leadership state. That’s why they called us for a long time the Empire State, So, yeah, there is always that possibility here in New York. However, I think we should be looking for better ideas. Now, we are not sure what the Republicans stand for. We are not sure what the independents want. We are not sure what Obama’s so-called liberals want. And we should be clear about what we want and need as a nation. We should be very clear. What are we going to do about our economy? What are we going to do about Afghanistan? How do we get out of the Middle East without killing another 6,000 Americans in a war that can’t be won? And so I think it’s the issues that matter most. And if Andrew, with his bright mind, comes up with good ideas and is able to implement them, then, of course, he ought to be considered for a higher place. I think it should depend upon what he produces. That’s the way we should be judging our politicians.
I think his answers should be plain and very simple. We need jobs; our economy is weak. And this is the way you make jobs: you do this with our infrastructure. I am looking for a lot of simple, clear, commonsense ideas that will produce jobs.
Our biggest population is the middle class. People who work for a living because they have to, not because some psychiatrist tells them it’s a good way to fill the grim interval between birth and eternity. And they need jobs. They need a good health-care plan. Is the plan that was passed [the Affordable Care Act] a good one? Well, that’s going to be up for grabs. But everything should be clear. Everything should be common sense. Everything should be plain. And that’s the way we should govern from here on in. Forget the ideology.
WO: Governor, you want simple answers. But they say it’s the label Barack Obama can’t shake, that he’s an “elitist,” that he’s like a college professor. You, with your words and your passion, demolished a shining city on a hill. Is Barack ever going to get it?
MC: Barack Obama is probably one of the brightest presidents, in terms of sheer intelligence. An IQ test would show he is one of the brightest we’ve ever had. There are other presidents who have been thought of as highly intellectual and intelligent. He’s also probably the best orator we’ve ever had as a president. And for most of his life, he was able to succeed using those two gifts. Being a senator, you use your intelligence in deriving positions and you use your eloquence in describing them. That’s all he needed. And a lot of money!
And so he came into the presidency relying on those two great gifts, his high intelligence and his eloquence. But sometimes you need more than eloquence. I was the one who said you campaign in poetry, but you govern in prose. You campaign in a lot of flowery and perhaps flamboyant rhetoric, but when it comes time to function as a president, then you do it in prose. Hard, plain, clear language that works. Then your communications have to be purely pragmatic, not designed to stir the soul and move people. It has to be designed to educate people. And that’s what Obama has to start doing now, going beyond the gifts he has. Is there a time and a place to use his intelligence? Yes, every day. But to use his eloquence? There is a special time and place for that. But starting today: talk to me plainly: I’m a guy who didn’t graduate college, I’m a hardworking guy with four kids and I’m in trouble because I can’t pay the tuition for any of them and because I’m worried about my health care. Talk to me. But talk to me in a language I understand. That’s what he is going to have to do, starting today.
WO: Governor, you’ve got me confused for a moment—which is my usual lot. But how can you not use your eloquence to explain things? I mean your simple, plain eloquence. Why can’t simple be eloquent?
MC: Well, did you ever describe somebody’s attire as elegant?
WO: I have.
MC: What’s the difference between elegant and nice?
WO: Sometimes less is more.
MC: Just think about that, O’Shaughnessy. When you have an answer to that question, I’ll give you an answer to your question.
WO: Oh my God, I think I’m over my head trying to mix it up with you. Anyway, I think I’ll pull back from Washington and just ask you:Did the governor-elect call his father today to check in?
MC: You are not going to believe this, Bill. We have extraordinary work habits. We work all the time. I don’t know what time it was when I left the hotel last night. It had to be midnight or one o’clock, and Andrew was there after me. Well, at about four o’clock this morning I got up, and the New York Times had been delivered. I get it usually at about 4:15 A.M. together with a copy of the Wall Street Journal, the Daily News, and the New York Post. And I went in to my office in the apartment—I had made coffee already—after only a couple of hours sleep, and the phone rang and it was Andrew. Maybe it was five. Incidentally, he scheduled a meeting for ten o’clock this morning for the whole staff. So I feel sorry for the guys who were partying because they had to show up at ten this morning. And he said to me, “How were the papers? Everything all right in the papers? What did they say? Who won? Who lost? What’s big? What should I be looking for?” And I said, “Too early to say. The papers are too early. They’re too early on the comptroller race. They’re too early on a lot of things, so you should have somebody just gather information for the rest of the day and then maybe by tonight, we’ll have a clear picture of everything. But what you have to do now, Andrew, is, as you know, get to work. Finish up your agenda at the attorney general’s office, at the same time you prepare for the toughest job you ever had. And probably the toughest job any governor ever had, starting on January 1, 2011.”
WO: What did Andrew say?
MC: “Call you later!”
WO: One final question: He walked across the stage last night at the Sheraton in Manhattan and kissed his father, and he whispered something; what did he say?
MC: He said, “Don’t tell them what I’m whispering to you!”
WO: Do you remember? Will you tell me?
MC: Yeah, I do remember, but I’m going to keep it that way.
WO: Thank you, sir. Congratulations. We’ve talked in moments of great elation and also during moments of sadness. This is one of the good days.
MC: Have I been clear, Brother Bill?
WO: Very.
MC: Then I’ve been successful. Thank you.
WO: Great stuff. As always.
THE MORNING AFTER: THE 2012 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
We�
��ve broadcast many interviews with Governor Mario Cuomo that have also appeared in my four previous books for Fordham University Press. On the morning after Barack Obama was elected to a second term (which surprised the hell out of my Republican friends!), we again summoned Mr. Cuomo’s wisdom. Then in his eightieth year, the governor retained a keen interest in the great issues of the day. In this delightful—and insightful—phone conversation on November 7, 2012, the man the Boston Globe calls “the great philosopher-statesman of the American nation” had some sage advice for the president as he was about to begin his second term. And as usual, it was accompanied as well by Mario Cuomo’s great wit and charm. Once again I didn’t lay a glove on him, and I couldn’t even get him to talk about his son and heir, Andrew. Or did he? Mario also offered clues on why he didn’t run.
WILLIAM O’SHAUGHNESSY: On this, the morning after the national election of 2012, we repair now to the counsel and wisdom of an individual who almost ran for that job of president of the United States of America: Governor Mario Matthew Cuomo. Governor, were you surprised Barack won?
MARIO CUOMO: Was I surprised? No. I expected he would win, and I was convinced it would be a relatively close race. And it was both those things. He did win. And it was a very close race. I’m not sure it was his best campaign. Notwithstanding, a billion dollars were spent. They didn’t get their money’s worth. I didn’t think there were enough debates. The first one was a knock-out in the first round by [Mitt] Romney, and then there were a couple of other debates which didn’t do much to enlighten the American audience. No, I’m not surprised. I’m pleased at the results, and I’m pleased at how the Republicans have responded so far. Let me not say it that broadly—I’m referring to Republicans in the House, who have said very clearly to the president that they wish to deal with him in a collaborative exercise that will produce the kind of policies both sides know we need. It’s a very good start, and I hope they keep at it until they get it done.
WO: Mario Cuomo, what about the second term? Your friend Bill Clinton had two terms.
MC: Yes. I hope what happens here is what happened in the Clinton years. Clinton’s first four years were a near-tragedy. He made a feint at the question of health care and how to get people the health care they need at a reasonable cost that won’t bankrupt the country. He tried and then had to back off after various interested parties attacked the approach he was taking. And so he got that setback and some other failures, which had people saying we made a mistake electing Bill Clinton. I did not think so, and I was delighted to see I was right in the second half of his eight-year term. In the second four-year term, I’ll tell you what happened and why it happened.
What Clinton wound up getting for the people of the United States of America was 22 million new jobs, an upwardly moving middle class, an upwardly moving upper class. More people achieved tremendous wealth than ever before in the history of the country. Balanced budgets. Sharp decline in the number of poor people. A strengthening of the middle class. All of these things in the second term. And finally, a projected surplus at the end of the eight years of trillions of dollars.
WO: Can Obama do the same thing?
MC: One big word is all you need, Bill. And it’s called collaboration. The difference between the first four years and the second four years is that Clinton did not have a collaborative atmosphere with the Republicans. In the second four years he did, and he went to all the Republican leaders and he did what he had to do to create sufficient confidence by the Republicans so they could work together. And when they worked together, that magic word collaboration gave us all those successes.
WO: Governor Cuomo, great wordsmith that you are—orator and careful linguist—what’s the difference between collaboration and compromise? Is there a difference?
MC: Not really, nuances perhaps. Collaboration and compromise are other ways of saying “common sense.” My mother and father were not given the gift of an education. Not even a grammar school education. But they could make deals. And they had to make deals every day. Because they had very scant resources to live on. They had to be constantly dealing with other people, trading their services for this or that. They learned how to collaborate. Clinton learned how to collaborate. If the Republicans are collaborative, they will have earned our respect and gratitude, notwithstanding they tried to take the presidency from Obama.
WO: Governor, as you get into the Republicans, notice I try to change the subject.
MC: Yes. I don’t blame you, O’Shaughnessy.
WO: You hold up Bill Clinton as an example for Barack. Do you realize that if you had done a few things differently, like order that damn plane to take off for New Hampshire [in 1991]—do you realize you might have been holding yourself up?
MC: Let me end this with you right now; maybe we can continue it another time.
WO: I have a few more questions . . .
MC: Well, maybe these two questions I’m going to give you will be enough for you. Why would somebody who is considering running for president—maybe Hillary Clinton—decide to consider running for president? This would happen because she’s going to obviously leave as secretary of state—get some rest, well-deserved rest. She’s done a terrific job. But let’s assume she and maybe various governors, from various states, are going to consider running for president.
WO: Anyone we know?
MC: Two questions, Brother Bill, they have to answer. Two questions. More for themselves than for the rest of us. The first question is: “Can I win?” Well, that’s the question almost all candidates for the presidency will ask. Can I win? And most of the time they will say yes—because, why not? They are probably people who have experience, etc. And yes, they can win. If Bush Jr. can win, if Obama can win, they could win. So that is an easy question. But here’s the tough one. I think if you want to run for president, you have to be able to look into the mirror, and you have to be able to say that person in the mirror is the best person available to be president of the United States. If you want to be president, to be morally right, you should convince yourself there is nobody better than you are to run the United States of America. Now, I doubt most candidates ask themselves that question. Because if most candidates asked themselves that question, they would probably have a very difficult time saying, “Yes, I’m the very best person who can run this country.” I know I didn’t feel that way.
WO: But, sir, with all due respect, a hell of a lot of people who know Mario Cuomo and respect you, they felt you are worthy and eminently capable, as you say.
MC: Well, I would have concluded they were wrong, Bill. For my own decision was . . . it’s hard to believe that. As a matter of fact, I proved my disbelief that I was the best by supporting John Kerry—not the second Kerry, but the first Kerry who was wounded in action and who I gave money to while I was governor. And when I was asked about it, I said, “Yes, I think he’s the best person on the scene for his ability to make a good president.”
WO: Governor, you mention Hillary Clinton. Are you saying she should look in the mirror? Or are you giving her permission to run?
MC: No, I just used her name because everyone is using her name. I have no idea whether she wants to run. I have a good idea about her abilities. And I think she’s terrific. And she’s proven it over and over again. And she made the most convincing case as secretary of state.
WO: Sir, do you have any idea who else might be thinking like this, looking in the mirror?
MC: I have no idea. How about you? You’re a smart guy, you’re good-looking. Do you see yourself as the best person available?
WO: I’m too young for you. I’m seventy-four. Governor, you said your parents—Immaculata and Andrea Cuomo—had very few gifts. They had the gift of Mario Cuomo, who has been called the great philosopher-statesman of the American nation. We’re very grateful to you for sharing Mario Cuomo with us on the morning after a presidential election. Once again, you didn’t let me take you where I wanted you to go.
MC: Well, let me say so
mething about that last comment of yours, Bill. They—my parents—didn’t think of me as a “gift.” And if they did think of me as a gift, why the hell did they keep hitting me on the derriere when I did something wrong?
WO: Weren’t you a perfect youngster? Even when you were clandestinely and stealthily playing baseball on four different teams using four different names when you’re only supposed to be on one at a time? They didn’t catch you.
MC: No, thank goodness they didn’t know a lot about me playing as “Lava Libretti.” And the umpire over in the New Jersey sandlot league said to me, “Mario, where did you get that name ‘Lava’?” I said, “Lava—always hot!” I was also known for a time as Oiram Omouc. Exotic, right? That’s my name backward.
WO: And didn’t you use other names? Connie Cutts? How about Matt Dente? And don’t forget the immortal Glendy LaDuke, your most famous nom de plume, save A. J. Parkinson. But he didn’t play ball, he merely opined.
MC: Dente—yes, indeed, I used Dente. That’s also true, O’Shaughnessy. And who can forget the immortal Glendy LaDuke?
WO: You see, I did a little research on your blazing career in the sandlot league in Queens, if not as a candidate for the presidency.
MC: Now you’re really getting dangerous and threatening, Brother Bill. So I’m really going to hang up!
WO: Thank you, sir. I still wish you’d just have owned up to the damn name “Mr. President.” . . .
ANDY O’ROURKE
I’ve written often about Andrew P. O’Rourke, the colorful and estimable Republican who served as Westchester County executive and wrote swashbuckling novels.
In a long, distinguished public career he also served as a New York State Supreme Court Justice and an admiral in the New York State Naval Militia (who knew we had a naval militia?).
Mario Cuomo Page 20