by Greg Prato
ANN WILSON: They were portrayed as sex kittens or dragon ladies, but always from an extremely hyper-sexualized standpoint. That seemed to be the only arena that was open to women on MTV, then and now. It was kind of like that old Marilyn Monroe movie, where she gets stuck in the porthole. She's stuck because her hips are too big to get out, so she has to stay in this tight little place. She has to stay there, flop around, and look gorgeous.
MARTHA DAVIS: The whole "women" issue is interesting, because I'm a child that grew up in Berkeley, California, and saw the whole '60s thing, watching women fighting for their rights. And then, all of a sudden, it's back to a Girls Gone Wild kind of situation. Especially with the big hair bands, there was definitely the gratuitous sex, which hasn't gone away since. I guess maybe gratuitous sex is here to stay. I have no idea. I think it's all everybody's comfort level. It doesn't bother me...but it's not something that I would do. I don't know if it's "forward" anything, but it's rock music. It's about sex, basically. So I think it's all good.
DAVE MARSH: Women didn't exist. "Girls" existed, to start with. I mean, maybe there would be a mom once in a while or an older school teacher. There weren't any "women." It was basically a world of teenaged sluts. The Whitesnake videos, the ZZ Top videos, Duran Duran videos. There was a cluster of them. There were bands that prospered on the basis of doing sort of sub-Penthouse video shoots. And the problem with it wasn't that young women were being "sexualized." Young women do a fine job of sexualizing themselves, or even that they were being stereotyped. The problem was that it was so one-sided. Very few female artists, for instance. And absolutely no female perspective, unless you count Nina and Martha...and that would be ridiculous.
FEE WAYBILL: Compared to today, they were treated much better back then. Today, it's a bunch of misogynists. If you look at rap videos or stuff like that, it's a bunch of hookers. There was an R-rated version of "Girls on Film," the Duran Duran video, and then they did the tame version for MTV. Compared to today, it was pretty tame. Women were treated pretty decently. Now...of course it depends on the genre, but it's a lot more misogynistic now.
LITA FORD: They sure weren't portrayed like they are now, with all the money and the gold and the shaking their booty around in their bikinis. I mean, even wearing a bikini...like if I were to slap on a bikini and got on MTV, that would have been a big no-no. People wear bikinis every day, so it's a normal thing. But, for some reason, I believe they wouldn't have allowed it. They would have said, "Can you put on a dress over it or something?" They just didn't really want that back then.
TONI BASIL: I didn't think about it, because they were being portrayed how they were in commercials or anything else. I didn't really analyze it, because if I wasn't interested in the music, I didn't watch the videos. If the videos didn't have dance in them, I didn't really watch them. Even now, I'll just surf. If I see dance, I'll stop. If I don't, I don't stop.
KATHY VALENTINE: Probably pretty much how they wanted to be. That's kind of the band's call, or the artist's call. I don't know [if] the artist can be portrayed in a video in a way other than they want to be. You can say, "No."
CHUCK D: There hardly were any black women in it as far as women were concerned. It was just like, "Get as much make-up and hair as possible."
ORAN "JUICE" JONES: They were dogged down, man. They were dogged down. What amazes me is how a lot of young men think that they have to solidify or maintain their manhood by being — as far as women are concerned — acting crazy or being barbaric. At that time, women — especially black women — were portrayed...I mean, they had tits and ass, you had to be in the street. It was a particular type of woman. It wasn't the type that you'd bring home or you'd introduce to your mother. It was the type you go out, and you have a good time. You spend some money, and you get freaky with her. One reporter told me that she was particularly thankful that we came up with "The Rain." It still got the point across, but it allowed women to maintain their dignity. Which I thought was very interesting. I've always been happy or proud of the fact that you could still get your point across, a man could still get his point across, and you don't have to beat up, act like a fool, or act crazy. There's ways to do it more cleverly, with more wit, with more class. And get your point across, and still allow her to retain her dignity. At least that's what one reporter told me about "The Rain," and I was particularly proud of that. But as far as black women were...not were, still are, still now, women aren't really given a fair shot as far as...even in hip-hop, female rappers don't really last that long. They come; they go. But they don't have the same impact as their male counterparts. Which I think is unfair. But that's the world we live in. Hopefully, it will change.
JOE ELLIOTT: Probably like they were portrayed before the suffragette movement. I mean, you look at the "Photograph" video, and it's one of the many examples where there are hot chicks caged up with torn clothes on. [Laughs] It was before the full-PC thing kicked in. So, it wasn't exploitive in the sense of...look, we didn't shove them in there against their will. They willingly took the money to be paid to do it. And it wasn't prostitution. It was role-playing. It was tragically sad by today's standards. But you see, it's such a macho-fucking-business. Let's think about it — throughout the whole MTV thing, other than Pat Benatar, I'm scratching my head to think of another female that was actually...Janet Jackson came much later. I never saw that much of Joan Jett. I mean, she was great, but I didn't see her videos as much as I saw Billy Idol's, you know what I mean?
PETE ANGELUS: That was a very sexual time, really. Listen, I know that there were a lot of videos that portrayed women in a very negative light, but not any more so than how some of the women are portrayed in rap videos to this day. I remember when we did "Hot for Teacher," getting a phone call that some organization — I can't remember what it was — but females were appalled, disgusted, insulted by the fact that these "teachers" were dancing on desk tops and that the classroom had been turned into a strip club. But listen, this is meant to be humorous. We are certainly not trying to degrade that woman in that role. Those were attractive women. I can't speak for all young men, but I can tell you that I personally had a lot of those fantasies when I was in school. I didn't think it was such a far stretch, and it certainly wasn't done with the intention of being insulting, by any means. It was speaking more towards those kids' fantasies and thoughts. I can understand why some people got upset, but here's the bottom line. People are always upset about something, no matter how you handle it. At the time, I remember there was a lot of media about how those women were portrayed in "Hot for Teacher," but in reality, it just garnered more attention to the band and to the video. I've seen some things on MTV where I was like, "Wow, that's going pretty far with that woman there." And is it necessary? Probably not. I mean, basically, she's fucking the television. Is that good for younger people to see? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what the message is of all these asses in the camera, but apparently, these people are trying to send a message...and I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is. MTV was an art-form. It was a blank canvas, and some of it was handled well. And some of it, the paintings just weren't that attractive.
MICHAEL SADLER: Generally, they were portrayed — especially in Whitesnake videos or Ratt or Cinderella or Poison, that whole genre — as "the groupie," as the subservient fan that would do anything for the band. And, generally, that was the case. Maybe art imitating life, I don't know. But I know that that was the lifestyle with those kinds of bands, the "hair bands" of the time. But they were portrayed as a lot of them...unfortunately, that was not that factitious. That was pretty much what was happening at the backstage doors and hotel rooms.
MARK WEISS: I think they were the way it should be in rock n' roll — girls with big boobs and scantily dressed and sex. To me, that's the way they were designed for in the '80s. I mean, the '70s, there was the groupies, and in the '80s, there were the bimbos. Everyone used to hang out with the rock stars, and you took it
to the max. I used to pull girls out of the crowd all the time and photograph them — naked, half-naked. I'd say, "Do you want to take a picture with the band?" And they'd take their top off and have their backs to the camera, whatever.
JOHN DOE: It was just as revolting as it is now. But that was why the hair bands succeeded and punk rock bands didn't, because they were willing to play that game. They were willing to play that card, and not be mentally challenging. And that played into MTV. Pretty antifeminist point of view. The kind of rap artists and urban artists, that came later...maybe not. I don't remember Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five videos. I do remember Kurtis Blow, but that was kind of shots of the street, as far as I remember.
JELLO BIAFRA: I think it was a deliberate throwback. I mean, how many of those videos were ever directed by women? It's the same old Hollywood we've had for decades, where generation after generation of hypertalented female actresses can't get a job because of the way they look. Remember, Jane Fonda was ordered to get a bunch of her teeth pulled, because Hollywood didn't think her face was skinny enough, and she resisted. I mean, that still goes on, only we have boob jobs, nose jobs, and thanks in part to “eMpTyV” and American Idol, now we have aspiring L.A. chicks getting boob jobs from their parents as a high school graduation present. I have very, very deep objections to this whole way the "fashion police" beat up on people — both guys, but especially, young girls. Where no matter how smart, creative, or interesting you are, what you really have to worry about is you're too fat, or you don't look enough like Britney Spears, or your friends might not like you, or somebody might think you're weird, and, "Oh my God, you're an ugly duckling unless it's the 90210 world or Dawson's Creek for you." Both of which I think were pitched at MTV viewers, and the influence crept in on those, too. Granted, I did watch the "prom" episode of 90210 with a room full of drag queens all in prom dresses once. I thought that was pretty amusing. The pin-up girls of the '40s and '50s could never get jobs in Hollywood today, because they're not emaciated enough. "We want a bulimic body with a great big boob job on top, or you don't get on camera. Because the only roles we're going to bother writing for you in our stupid movies and our stupid TV shows...the guys can play characters, but you're going to play the girl." And there are a few over the years that have been able to break out of that, but considering how few of them have been able to establish themselves, a la Meryl Streep, Julia Roberts, Rosie O'Donnell, or Sarah Silverman, versus how many guys can break out of that, it's still "Exhibit A" on how far we have to go in the way that women are treated not only in culture but also in daily life. A friend of mine who worked in that scene in L.A. had a great term for what they do with women in a lot of videos. She called them "wiggle girls."
JOE ELLIOTT: But with the women thing, I don't think there was ever a sexist stance. I just don't think that generally that many women got into it. I wish the Runaways would have started seven or eight years later. I would have loved to have seen them do a video for "Queens of Noise" or "Cherry Bomb."
LITA FORD: I had to change lyrics. I had to change a few things — clothes. Especially being a woman, women can be extremely sexual...as well as a man. But for some reason, they have to pick on the women. I did get some attitude from the record company. "Lita, don't wear so much make-up," and "Maybe you should cover yourself up a little bit," or "Don't wear black nail polish." I was always being told what to do and what not to do. I never listened to any of them. I just went ahead and did what I wanted to do. If they wanted to sign somebody like Britney Spears, then they should have signed Britney Spears if they didn't like me. But I didn't want to change. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be one of the first to do what I do. Being a female guitarist, the sexuality thing is part of the act. Sex attracts. And that's what I wanted to get across. It wasn't the fact that I was just trying to be a sex symbol or anything. I was just trying to sell records. Kmart, Target, Wal-Mart, all those kind of stores refused to put Out for Blood in their stores because of the guitar being broken in half, with the guts hanging out and stuff. I was wearing a g-string. I don't remember what I wore in the video...I personally think it's decent. Women wear a lot less these days than they did back then, and that was an issue, because of the things that I was wearing...or not wearing. I remember having to do re-do the album cover, so I didn't look so "undressed," and holding the guitar in front of my crotch, so you didn't see the g-string so much. Just stuff like that I had to deal with. I went ahead and did a lot of it anyway. How many times are they going to tell you, "No, no, no"? Because each time they do, it costs them a ton of money. So I just tried to stick to "Lita." That's who I am, and that's who I wanted to portray. I didn't want to put on some pink dress or whatever. It really was an issue, and I had to fight it.
JELLO BIAFRA: Even after the Go-Go's broke, women were completely commodified in the eyes of the major label machinery. There was a really talented, kind of a melodic post-punk band from here, called the Contractions, who were three women, and I believe it was their manager who told me at one point, when she was knocking on doors of major labels trying to get them a deal, what they came back with was, "We've already done the Go-Go's. Girl bands are dead." As if gender was a novelty. It would disqualify everybody else of the same gender. And this was definitely more of a "women's band," that wrote about issues of women who worked in downtown San Francisco. It was a completely different thing, but, "Oh no, one Go-Go's is enough. That trend is over. Bye."
KATHY VALENTINE: I still see "women in rock" issues and books come out. I think that there's a mystique still, for some reason, maybe because the rock n' roll pioneers were men, that it's such a wedged-in thing, that it's always going to seem a little bit special and unique. I don't know if it will change. It's still here. I'm not saying I don't like my "guy rockers," but if I see a band and they have a girl bass player, that's where my eye tends to go more. I don't know why.
ANN WILSON: I guess it's a story to tell. It makes it more interesting. It makes it less threatening to people who maybe are afraid of women. If you go, "Wow, there aren't very many. There's only a few, so don't worry!" Also, I think rock n' roll has traditionally been invented by men to get girls and impress girls. So for women to come in and find a way to take up the dialogue themselves, they've got to be really original. I think Annie Lennox was really original. And we have always tried our damnedest to be authentic and to go by the question of "Why aren't there more women in rock? Because women aren't strong enough?" If you want to do it, you can do it. That's the answer. Look at Patti Smith or Debbie Harry. She was amazing on MTV. And she looked like herself.
DEBORA IYALL: There's always got to be a frame. And the frame can either be one that you totally jive with, or it leaves too many people out. It's funny, because there's a "women in rock" compilation LP that came out, that had myself, Pat Benatar, and Olivia Newton-John on it. [Laughs] It's like, "Yeah, we are all women. You've got the ovaries right." It was kind of hilarious. As music fans, we saw ourselves more in camps of our intentions, our music, and what was driving that, rather than just being women. Although I do have to say I totally enjoyed the Go-Go's. We got to play a party for them after they played, at Mabuhay Gardens in San Francisco. And I was totally thrilled, to have a band full of wild girls. I always had lots of girlfriends I'd hang with, and it only seemed like a natural thing to get the girls you hang with to learn songs and start to make some noise.
MARTHA DAVIS: It doesn't matter if you're a woman or a man. It matters if you write great songs. It should be about your art. It shouldn't be about your gender. I never thought about it. I never approached it that way, and thus, I don't think I ever felt it. I think some of that stuff, you create your own situation. It was the one question that got asked every five minutes back in the day. It was like, "What does it feel like to be a woman in rock?" I'd say, "I'm just a musician trying to make good music. That's all. It doesn't really have to do with that."
Kiss Unmasks on MTV
ALAN HUNTER: That was an amazing
day [September 18, 1983], and JJ [who was the host of the segment] was really excited. He was good friends with Paul Stanley. I thought it was pretty major. Again, it was another example of how MTV was a platform for any kind of announcement that a band wanted to make. Kiss decided to "unveil," and they chose MTV. Of course, there was no other choice. There was nothing else to do it on. They weren't going to do it on late night television or The Today Show. JJ was pretty pumped. I remember hanging on the edge, watching. I remember everybody from the office of MTV came down. Whenever something big happened, all the secretaries and everybody came down from the office. [Laughs] It was like, "What are you all doing down here?" "We want to see Kiss unveiled!" So the hubbub and the entourages and the publicists and the record company people — it was just packed. The pressure was on. And I remember we only really had one shot at it. It's not like a drawing, you couldn't screw it up. And I remember JJ would get very sweaty under those circumstances. As much as a pro as he was, he'd get real tight and nervous.