by David Peace
That’s right.
He was a well-known man for the women, of course?
Harold Wilson said, Yes. I think he got around a little bit …
Bill Shankly laughed.
And I think if he’d been in one of your football teams, you’d have been onto him about the hours he kept.
Yes, said Bill Shankly. I think I’d have had somebody, a detective, watching where he went at night-time.
Harold Wilson said, I think, if he had lived today, he might be in the Scottish football team. Better not say that …
Well, it’s a well-known fact, said Bill Shankly, that in his day, if a man committed fornication, he was reported to the local minister. And the minister sent for the man and he sat him in front of the congregation in a seat called the cutty stool. And he humiliated him in front of all the congregation. This was a well-known thing. Now it would appear that Burns was so often there that he had a season ticket.
Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, Yes. It’s what you call a sin bin in football.
That’s correct, said Bill Shankly. Burns was in the sin bin. But, nevertheless, a fantastic man. Er, Huddersfield, Mr Wilson?
I was born there …
Yes, yes.
I was at school there until I was sixteen. And then I came to Merseyside …
Your background in Huddersfield, which I know well, of course. I was there five years.
Well, I know, yes. You were manager there.
And I used to play up at Oaks, said Bill Shankly. At the top of the hill there. And at the back of the field we started playing five-a-side football. On a Sunday afternoon. And it started off about five-a-side, then when it finished up there was about fifteen-a-side.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, My grandfather and grandmother were married at Oaks. Oaks Chapel. I was there until I was sixteen. Of course, I played football, but was never good enough. I used to go to watch Huddersfield Town every week. I played a bit of rugby league. But not professionally, of course. Then I came to Merseyside because my father lost his job, got another job on the Wirral, and I went to Wirral Grammar School, Wirral County School as it then was, and where I had to play rugby union. And I came to like that as well. But a lot of my formative career was spent on Merseyside as well as in Yorkshire.
Well, I think that, you mention rugby? I think it’s a very good thing for character. I think that the rugby boys are good boys.
Harold Wilson laughed. And Harold Wilson said, Well, soccer is, too. It’s a good thing for character. And bad character sometimes.
I think that rugby union, said Bill Shankly, I mean, at school, I think it’s a good thing for boys.
Yes. Well, I played it for two years. I was captain of the school team and a future England international was in the team when we played our first match and got beaten seventy-four–nil …
Bill Shankly laughed.
Well, it wasn’t bad. We were thirty-seven–nil at half-time and we didn’t deteriorate.
Who were you playing for, asked Bill Shankly. Everton?
No, we were playing for our school. You see, it was a young school. A new school. Only a year old. I was the only boy in the sixth form. And we asked one of the neighbouring schools to give us their fourth team. And they were suspicious. So they gave us their second team and they overwhelmed us.
Ah, yes. That was a form of cheating, wasn’t it, said Bill Shankly. And Bill Shankly looked down at his clipboard –
Er, it’s down here that you went to the Wirral Grammar School, and that was strictly rugby, was it?
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, Strictly rugby. Well, at one point, the then headmaster, who was an excellent man, got worried that the boys had got nothing to do at lunchtime. So, as school captain, I said I would organise some healthy sports. And we played football every lunchtime. After lunch. Soccer. And I rather enjoyed playing soccer with ten-foot posts.
Aye, laughed Bill Shankly again. I bet you did. Because you had every chance of scoring a goal!
Harold Wilson laughed. And Harold Wilson said, Get the long shots in, yes. Well, I also did a lot of running. I ran for the Wirral Athletic Club. I got their youth championship. And then I ran in the Liverpool and District and we got the bronze, my team.
You were cross-country champion of Merseyside schools?
Harold Wilson shook his head. And Harold Wilson said, No, just the Wirral. I ran all sorts of other sports there. I once ran in the Northern Counties Athletic Championship, behind the man who set the record that year and was the English captain. And I got a good back view of him when we set off.
This cross-country, Mr Wilson? This is really a souldestroying job, isn’t it?
I’d never done much. I was short- and middle-distance. And then I went out to train at our cross-country headquarters and they asked me to run in the championship because they had a good runner who they, you know, wanted to give a chance. And somebody hadn’t turned up. And I just stuck to him and beat him barefoot.
But this all leads up to the fact that you are prime minister of Great Britain. And you’ve played football, you’ve played rugby. You were cross-country champion. Now, I’ve run all distances …
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, So have I, really. I could never decide what my distance was.
But the cross-country one is really soul-destroying?
Well, it is. And if you get a bit of a stitch. Or have the wrong thing to eat or drink beforehand …
You don’t want to give in, said Bill Shankly. Do you?
No, no. You don’t …
You want to go on until you die, said Bill Shankly.
Well, actually, that’s good for politics. I remember when I was up and coming, really, one of the greatest journalists, now dead, said, Watch this man. He’s a long-distance runner …
Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes!
A long-distance runner who gets there in the end …
Yes, said Bill Shankly again. That’s what I said at the beginning of the football season …
And keeps on running.
When they said, Who is going to win the League? I said, Listen. This is a marathon. This isn’t a short sprint.
Harold Wilson said, It’s very tight at the moment between the top ones. I heard you, actually, last season. Oh, I should think ten or a dozen matches before the end, saying Derby County were going to win. I heard you on the radio say that.
Well, I had seen all the teams then, Mr Wilson.
You were quite positive about it. And it was a near thing. But you were right. You were right.
Well, I think that they only used the bits they wanted to use.
Harold Wilson asked, Did they?
In actual fact, my first bet was Liverpool. And Derby County was my saving bet. And they edited it so that I was Derby County.
Harold Wilson smiled. And Harold Wilson said, Oh, I gave you credit for it then, you see.
Well, I did back Derby County. I had seen Derby at Liverpool. I’d seen all the teams. And I felt that Derby had enough class.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, Your Liverpool team was one of the greatest I’ve ever seen.
Oh yes …
It still is, of course.
Oh yes, said Bill Shankly again. Yes, yes. They’ve got character. And they are never beaten. They last the game. The game that we did play, it was geared to bring everybody into the game. And simplify it. Consequently, you didn’t have more to do than me, if you were on the same team …
Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, Yes, I know. Well, my theory about this is the same with politics. I often use the analogy. In fact, people say I get boring …
No, said Bill Shankly. No.
… the way I use analogies in the House of Commons. But it helps you understand it. So I always say, No team is going to win the Cup or the League unless it’s got good reserves.
Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes.
And I’ve paid as much attenti
on to building up my reserves. As I say, after being out of office for thirteen years, I reckon that if my first team got under a bus, my second team could take over. And my third team shows in some ways more promise than any of them.
Yes, said Bill Shankly. This is true. This is true.
And you’ve got to give them responsibility young.
Exactly, said Bill Shankly. And if I had a well-known player, unable to play through injury, which would be a terrible blow. Some teams, if they lose a key player, that’s them gone, you know? And the pessimistic will let that get them down. But when I had a key player injured, I used to say to the boy apprentice, Now listen, son. You’re a better player than him. You see? And have a little bit of psychology.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, But I don’t have the problem of temporary substitution. I have the problem of taking people off the substitutes’ bench, like you do. I mean, for a very long time, you had five or six world-class forwards …
Oh, we did, said Bill Shankly.
And your problem was who to leave out.
We did.
Harold Wilson said, And they were always disappointed, whichever one was left out.
But our football was a form of socialism, said Bill Shankly.
Well, I think you know, you have the great advantage here – and it’s true of certain other parts of the country – of tremendous schools’ football. I mean, how often have my own constituents’ boys gone on to the national championships, schoolboy championships, different parts of the constituency, different parts of Merseyside – and I’ve seen those kids playing and you’ll find that kids of about ten or twelve are getting watched by the scouts.
Well, I’ve seen a few eleven-year-olds and twelve-year-olds recently. And there’s a few of them can play, I can tell you.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, Yes, well they’re born with it, they’ve got the gift, as long as they work at it.
They’ve got it, said Bill Shankly. And if they’ve got the ability, then a breakthrough is going to come out. And I’ve got my eyes on them, you know? So this is the thing. Er, back to the running. The grit that you showed in your cross-country. This is your character. And this is why you rose to be prime minister.
Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, Well, you talk about Robbie Burns. But one of my favourite songs is from Harry Lauder. Keep Right on to the End of the Road.
Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes.
If you’ve got a problem to solve, you’ve got to keep at it. You’ve just got to keep at it. And with us – again I’ll take your football analogy – in politics timing is everything. People will nag you. Why haven’t you done it? Why don’t you get on with it?
Yes, said Bill Shankly again. Yes.
I was nagged all the summer about the anti-inflation policy. I knew what I wanted. And I was confident I’d get it. But it had to be the right time. So I had to get kicked in the teeth and everything else. Because I seemed to be complacent and lazy. But there’s a time. And you know when that time is, you know when’s the time to hit that ball. And it’s the same thing …
And only you know that, said Bill Shankly. Only you.
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, And only you know that. If you’re a professional. And if you’re not, you’d better make way for somebody else.
And only the manager knows of a football club, said Bill Shankly. What he’s got to do. And when to do it. This is the thing.
Exactly. And how he’s going to shape them …
And the man who’s willing, said Bill Shankly, he takes the stick if it goes wrong.
And how you’ve got to bring this man on, and perhaps disappoint another, sometimes breaks his heart.
And he’s not going to be told by somebody else when to bring him on, said Bill Shankly. He brings him in. The same as you bring your men in at the right time. And you make your statements at the right time. As you say, it’s all timing.
And football managers. Politicians. Get it wrong sometimes …
Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. It’s the simplest thing in the world.
And don’t we hear about it?
Well, said Bill Shankly. It’s a loud bang when a football manager does something wrong. But when you make a larger boob, with you then it’s a bigger bang, of course.
Mind you, we have the right to answer back. In Parliament.
Sure, said Bill Shankly. Sure, sure.
Harold Wilson sat up in his seat. And Harold Wilson said, Our parliament, I think, is the greatest thing in the world. The Americans have got nothing like it. Nothing like it. And I don’t know a lot about the Continentals. But it is democracy. The minister, whatever he’s done, he’s got to answer for it, to a pretty hungry crowd of experts. People who are out to either get him down or support him. And you can’t touch it, you can’t dodge the responsibility …
No, no.
If you’ve made a mistake, say so. And I’ve always had Question Time. And I was once told Macmillan, who was one of the greatest prime ministers – I didn’t agree with him on a lot of things, nor he with me, but I respected him – and I was told that he used to be almost physically sick before questions, twice a week. I know how he felt. And when a prime minister isn’t worried about questions, then democracy is in danger. But I’ve suddenly changed my psychology. I used to think of it like cricket, you know? If you are supposed to be a top-class batsman, they mustn’t take your wicket. And it makes you a bit defensive, you know?
Yes, yes.
And I suddenly said, a fortnight ago, I’ve got it all wrong. I want to treat questions like football now. If they want to score a goal, let them score a goal, I’ll go out and try and score two. And it’s slightly changed my attitude. And it’s also making the Question Time more exciting.
And you think this is advantageous?
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, I think, if you think in sporting analogies, it helps you in other walks of life. You have a problem I don’t have in the same way. But the jobs are similar in many ways. I went into the dressing room after a Huddersfield match. Huddersfield had won. They had played very well. So had the others, too. And I saw the manager talking to them. Although they’d won and he said they played marvellously, but he said, That marking was wrong. He said, Those little ones, you should mark the little ones. And let the big ones mark the big ones. I’ve often wondered what was said in dressing rooms. It was the first time I’d ever been in one. And I was in the Scottish one just after Frankfurt, you know?
Yes, said Bill Shankly. Ah yes.
In the World Cup. I went to see them when … well, I hoped they were going to pile up all the goals they needed, and they didn’t. But it must be hard when your team has done badly and they know it, and you know it, to know exactly what to say to them.
Oh, it’s a terrible feeling, said Bill Shankly. I mean, you know what it’s like in politics if something goes wrong? I mean, it’s a terrible feeling if you’ve had a bad day and you’ve got beaten.
Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, And the first minute when you go in there, what do you say?
Oh, the first minute after it, said Bill Shankly. I mean, you may have something to say …
You can’t chew them up too badly. Or you’ll break their hearts.
No, no, said Bill Shankly. No. It’s all psychology. I mean, what you have got to do is, you’ve got to know your Cabinet. You know all of these men in your Cabinet. You know their strengths and their weaknesses. I have got to know all these players. And I deal with them the way I think. One needs to be spoken to strongly, one needs a little handling. You know all your Cabinet and I know all my players.
You know what they’ll take …
You know what is best for them, said Bill Shankly.
I think another thing with your job and mine. You’ve got certain people. Some are very, very good at this particular thing or that particular thing. And so I sometimes alter the system of governm
ent, the machinery of government, to make sure that a flyer of this particular kind can really develop on that side, so to speak, just as if you’ve got – well, let’s not talk about any local footballers – but we were chatting the other night about Ray Wilson, who went from Huddersfield to Everton. Now if you’ve got a Ray Wilson there, you will develop, I guess, a particular style of play and tactics to make the greatest use of him …
Great, said Bill Shankly. Great.
If you’ve got somebody like Leighton James of Burnley – who, I think, he’s a real, good old-fashioned winger of the kind I was brought up to respect and admire and cheer – then, in his case, I can imagine Burnley would build their tactics round a man like that, whereas, if they didn’t get him, they’d be doing different tactics.
Mr Wilson, laughed Bill Shankly, you’re going to be a manager of a football team soon …
Harold Wilson shook his head. And Harold Wilson said, I don’t think I’d do it very well.
Because your tactics are right!
I’d rather be an amateur watcher of it.
But you played yourself at what level, Mr Wilson?
Oh, I was a goalkeeper in Huddersfield. I was a goalkeeper. I wasn’t very good. I had a year off then because I had typhoid fever. And they didn’t have the cures for it that they have these days. And then I went onto the wing. But shortly afterwards, as I say, I went to a rugby school. And the only thing I could do was run fast. And if I got the ball, I’d make for the goal line. Sometimes successfully …
Well, said Bill Shankly. I mean, there’s another piece of your character coming out. Cross-country, the typhoid …
Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, I was camping at a Boy Scouts’ camp. We had a local one, you know? We lived in the kind of textile valley. And it was up on the moors. We had an arrangement with the farmer who owned it. And I bought some milk from a local farmer, a milkman, who turned out to be a typhoid carrier. Twelve people got it. Six of them died. And I nearly did. And I lost nearly a year of my school.
You didn’t die, said Bill Shankly. You didn’t nearly die at all. Because you didn’t. Because you weren’t going to die …
Well, I didn’t know how bad I was, actually.