“I had hoped that wasn't necessary,” said Kennedy. “Maybe somebody wants us to use troops, but, uh-we're not anxious to-”
“I can assure you,” Wallace said quickly, “I do not want to use troops. I can assure you there's no effort on my part to make a show of resistance and be overcome…”
Kennedy replied crisply, “I'm glad to hear that, governor.”
“I mean to stand,” continued Wallace, “as I said in the campaign for governor, because I believe we've got to wake the people of this country up to the fact that this business of the central government, every time you turn around, moving in with troops and bayonets. I believe the people don't like it. I believe all over this nation-” Incredibly, only four months after he had been sworn into office, there were already glimmerings of a larger hankering. “-we get thousands of letters from Michigan and former Southerners in California, in Michigan-automobile workers-” The litany was already forming, that early “-who say, 'We gonna stand with you people in the South.'”
“I don't blame people for not liking it, governor,” said Kennedy in an almost inaudible whisper. “I don't like it myself.”
Wallace quickly, gently, bizarrely proposed again, “Well, why don't you use your good influence in the Justice Department to persuade these people who want to integrate school systems, especially in the Deep South-why can't you be patient and hold off and let things evolve? And-why don't you? I've been trying to get some new industry, we've gotten one hundred and fifty million dollars' worth of it in the past five or six months since I was elected governor… That's the most important thing you can do for the Negro people, is enhance their standard of living… We're trying to do some real things for them, but all this agitation and all this business of Martin Luther King- who's a phony, and a fraud-marchin' and goin' to jail and all that, they just livin' high on the hog-”
“Purely a commercial venture,” Trammell interposed.
“It's a commercial venture,” echoed Wallace. “I would- why don't they organize an industrial-development committee and go sit down and say, let's bring some industry to Atlanta and Montgomery and Birmingham, we got people out of work? We just don't get a bit of help from them-do we, Mr. Reid?”
There was a long pause. Finally, in resignation, Kennedy said, “Well, I appreciate your seeing me, governor.”
“Well,” said Wallace, “I appreciate you comin' to see me. I wish we could-I wish that you could feel that you could use the influence of the Justice Department to stop the integration movement-” There was only a stunned silence from Kennedy. “-of course, I'm against integration at any time, but at least for the next ten years, at least.”
Trammell again injected, in a hushed and stealthy voice, “Use some persuasive powers and not force. per-suaaa-sive powers on both sides. This thing can't be overcome overnight.”
“Well, of course, let me say this,” Wallace added rapidly, “let's be gettin' it straight now. 'Course, I'm not for usin' persuasive powers on us to persuade us to integrate. I'm against integration-”
“So just use the persuasive powers on the other side,” said Kennedy, giving a short laugh.
“That's right,” declared Wallace solemnly. “I think integration is bad. I don't think it's good, and you don't have any bona fide integration in this country, we know that. In fact, you don't have it in Washington. Everybody's fled to Virginia. Why don't the government make all them officials come back from Virginia and Maryland and go to school in Washington? Wouldn't that be a-they flee integrated schools. I sorta feel like that's sorta a mockery of the situation, and our image is not good in other parts of the world… Looks to me like Congress can push anything else across they want to, it'd look like they'd push home rule-but there's another item of high-pocrisy…”
“Would you be in favor of home rule in Washington?” inquired Kennedy.
“I think it would be good to have home rule in Washington, yes, I think it would be good to have an example set for the world and the nation what happens to a good city and a big city when you turn it over to colored control. Now, it may turn out to be a model of perfection. It may turn out to be the finest city government in the whole world and, on the other hand, it may turn out to be the right opposite. I think the American people should have a right to look at the city of Washington bein' controlled by its local inhabitants, and therefore, because I would just like to see what would happen, I think you ought to have home rule.”
Kennedy spoke with a curious low, dull uncertainty, as if not quite sure that he was actually engaging with the governor of Alabama in the kind of discussion about the kind of question he seemed to be engaged in. “I've seen a lot of cities throughout the world, governor, that aren't controlled by white people that are doing pretty well.”
“Not controlled by white people? But they're not controlled by Negroes-”
“Oh, yes. I've seen a lot of those.”
“Oh, have you?”
“Yeah.”
“What-name some of them,” Wallace demanded.
“Well,” said Kennedy, “any place on the Ivory Coast-”
“You think they're model cities?”
“They're very impressive cities,” asserted Kennedy.
“You know, two-thirds of the world is colored, but it's not Negro,” Wallace offered. “In other words, the Japanese and the Chinese people-Listen,” he said suddenly, “I have nothing against people of opposite color, I believe that God made all of them, and I believe that anybody who hates anybody because of their color, I feel sorry for them. I'd hate to die hatin' people because of their color. I just don't believe in social and educational mixin'… It creates disorder, and we're tryin' to keep order…” And then, once again, he submitted with a kind of deathless optimism, “I wish it were possible to have those folks in Washington to say, we're gonna side with you Southern folks for once, and we're gonna ask 'em to slow up on this integration business. But there's no chance for that, is there?”
Kennedy replied, still a little numbed, “Well, I think I've made it clear, governor, that what's involved is the integrity and orders of the court…” He was clearly ready to end it now and leave. “Could we just decide perhaps what we might say outside that would be satisfactory to you? That we paid a courtesy visit, and that we discussed some of the problems involving, uh, uh, some of the-uh-” There was a long, dangling silence. “Well, I don't know how we'd describe it-” He gave a nervous and awkward laugh. “I think it's-what do you say, Ed?” He turned to his press aide, Ed Guthman, who along with Wallace's press aide, Bill Jones, had now been called into the room. There was a general flurry of recommendations.
“Well, we had a frank talk,” said Wallace. “But, uh-”
Trammell quickly inserted, “Don't lead, we don't want to lead the people to any fallacious thinkin' as to what may have come out of this…”
Wallace suggested a simple statement that “Governor Wallace still stands in the position that he held the time he ran for governor, and you still stand in the position that you held all the time. Seems like that's the way it is, isn't it?” he said.
“That's it,” said Trammell.
Kennedy said, “I'd rather not get into what your-you can speak for yourself-”
“As far as I'm concerned,” said Wallace, “you can say anything you want to, Mr. Kennedy…”
“Yeah,” said Kennedy, “it would be a mistake to create any controversy. Whatever I say, I want to make sure that you approve of…”
Wallace then innocently mused, “Of course, it depresses me and makes me very sad to think that we-we have these strained relations between the states and the federal government, but it's that way, and we feel very strongly about this matter… In fact,” he added casually, “according to yawl's attitude, of course, it's we may have to send troops and jail you as governor of the state-”
“We never said that, governor,” Kennedy said quietly and rapidly. If it had not been clear to Kennedy in the beginning, when he walked into the offic
e and discovered that Wallace had set up a tape recorder, that any agreement was hopeless before the discussion even started, that Wallace had consented to it only on the chance that he might come out of it with a threat to further dramatize his stance-that was clear to Kennedy now. For Wallace, the conference existed only for that purpose. And he had almost managed to pull it off. He and Trammell had snagged Kennedy just by the cuff of one pants leg, as it were, and they were reluctant to let him go; they sought to induce him further into the trap.
“No,” said Wallace, “we didn't say that you said that, but we do feel that-”
“That's what's been attempted in one state,” Trammell almost whispered, “and this situation is very little different-”
“Since he's gonna have a press conference-” Wallace added.
“I'm gonna walk out,” said Kennedy with an edgy laugh. “I'm not planning on a press conference, I just thought I'd-I can't get out of here without saying something.”
“Well, what do you have in mind to say?” Wallace asked curtly. “Go ahead, let us hear it.”
Kennedy said something about a mutual exchange of views, and Trammell interrupted almost abjectly, unctiously, “The people are very interested in this thing, they've got to know, they're entitled to know…”
Kennedy protested, “I don't think that what I think is going to help any if we got into any kind of controversy-I leave here and say something, and you leave here and say something, and then we start the next two months discussing what we said to each other…”
“I continue to stand as I've always stood,” Wallace relented for a moment, “and let's let it go at that… The people in this state talk to you folks who have so much charm, and wit, you know, out of Washington, you know, and they [the people in Alabama] feel like they [the people out of Washington] gonna get you [himself, Wallace] in a compromisin' position. Of course, I don't intend to compromise on anything.”
“I understand,” said Kennedy. “Why don't we just leave it, I'd speak for what I said and not get into what you said, and you could get into what you said and what your position is, without getting into what I said.”
“I agree,” said Wallace. “I can speak for myself and you can speak for yourself.”
But Trammell gently, officiously persisted, “Well, well, I think, though, I think you're entitled to your opinion and so is Mr. Kennedy-”
“Oh, sure,” said Wallace.
“-as to what the opinion of this conversation is.”
“Well, I don't think it would be helpful to get into an analysis of it,” repeated Kennedy.
Trammell continued, “You don't want the people to be led into thinking maybe that Mr. Kennedy agrees with the governor-”
“There's no agreement,” said Wallace.
“Well,” proposed Trammell, “I think that the people of Alabama and the South should know-”
Wallace picked up his cue. “Let's get it straight, now. You will not use-”
Kennedy wearily reiterated, “I will hope and expect that the orders of the court-there's no plan or idea of using troops. I think as you said, these are going to be resolved in the courts….”
Wallace suddenly ambushed Kennedy by asking him why he had men taking pictures of the University of Alabama campus, if it were not in anticipation of the use of troops. “We'll give you a picture of the school if you ever want one. I mean, you won't ever have to-uh-” He ended with a small laugh.
“I understand that,” said Kennedy. “It could have been handled better.”
“Well, I'll say this,” Trammell doggedly tried again, “the governor has made his position very clear, and he's asked what your position would be, whether or not troops would be used-”
Kennedy replied quickly and testily, “I don't plan to. You seem to want me to say that I am going to use troops-” Trammell hurriedly and gently protested. “No,” said Kennedy, “but that's what you seem to think and that's what you seem to want-” He gave an incredulous little laugh, a faintly harried and cornered little laugh, recognizing that he was faced by a kind of implacability that was beyond both his understanding and all his rational references. “You're pushing it so much, I sort of get that opinion. In any case, so we understand each other, we haven't the use of any force prepared, we haven't the use of any troops prepared… So I want to make sure that we don't get out of here-I mean, I didn't say anything to the contrary, and I don't want to have any inferences about-”
For the last time, Trammell whisperingly insisted, “Just that one statement in there that you would use whatever powers the central government had to carry out the court order-”
“Well, that's the implication,” Kennedy said. “I mean, you can decide whether the federal government is going to use troops, and that's your decision.”
“Well, past history-” Trammell began.
“Yeah, but don't apply it to me or any statement that I made here in this room, now.” Kennedy's voice now was cold and brittle. “That should be understood with Mr. Jones, too. So that we all understand each other, I think that would be most unfair-”
“Well, then,” said Wallace, “we can say that you're not going to use troops in the-”
“I have no plans to,” replied Kennedy.
“Well, that's fine,” said Wallace. “You're in charge-” He then thought it meet to confide, “Let me tell you something, I'm not trying to trick you, and, uh, of course, I wouldn't want you nor anyone else-'course, I know you wouldn't want to trick me.”
“Well,” said Kennedy, with the tape recorder still humming, “that was why I wanted to have this conversation.”
“We not trying to trick anybody,” Wallace kept on. “But of course, we do know that troops were used in Mississippi, and they were used in Arkansas, and we do know that you took photographs of the University of Alabama, and for what other purpose I can not comprehend than the use of troops' ingress and egress, and you did say, Mr. Kennedy, that you would use the full power of the federal government to enforce the order of the court and to protect the integrity of the court. And the full power of the federal government necessarily means military power also.”
“You can reach that conclusion,” snapped Kennedy. “Anybody's entitled to a conclusion, but I didn't say that. Based on what I said here today, you can say for a long line of reasons that you've reached the conclusion that the federal government's going to use troops. I think you're mistaken on it, but I just want to make sure as far as my statement and our conversation here today-I don't think that that's very helpful for the state or the federal government or our relationship with one another. Did you-” He turned now to Ed Reid. “-did you get the impression I said I was gonna use troops?”
“No,” said Reid, “I didn't get that impression.”
Wallace, who may have assumed he had effectively neutralized Reid with his earlier subtle little pleasant tugs, now turned on him. “But he did say that he was gonna use the full power of the federal government to enforce the court order, didn't he?”
“But he said he hoped and assumed that that wouldn't be necessary,” replied Reid.
“He said, he hoped,” barked Wallace. “But he didn't say he would not use troops…” But with that, Wallace relinquished the point: he had almost managed it, but not quite. Now, again assuming that outrageously hopeful, wistful air, which must have been maddening to Kennedy, he remarked, “Well, you feel it would weaken your political position if you talked to these people who are trying to get into the school here at the University of Alabama, and asked them to withdraw their applications in view of the attitude and demeanor of the people and the state government here? Would that-uh-anything wrong with that?”
Kennedy briskly repeated that it would neither be proper nor possible for him to do that.
“If you as the Attorney General would say,” Wallace wheedled, “this Martin Luther King is doing things he shouldn't do, and he's advocating lawlessness, and that you call upon him to obey the law like anyone else, and be emphatic about
it-” But he finally surrendered even the pretense of that possibility, and satisfied himself with the rueful observation, “Yawl make an easy little statement, and then the President talks to Mr. King over the telephone, and all those kind of things-” He chuckled.
The conference then ended. Kennedy, as he turned toward the door, said, “I don't know how I'm going to do out here. Will you go out and stand with me?” There was an explosion of laughter.
But as Kennedy left the capitol in a cab, he muttered to a newsman riding with him, “I suppose I can understand the governor's position politically. But that Trammell is a son of a bitch. He wants somebody killed…”
Wallace's staff had already journeyed up to Tuscaloosa, where, with grave and momentous deliberation, they had selected a doorway. Al Lingo, Wallace's head trooper, had made the mistake of ordering that press coverage be limited to members of the Alabama capitol press corps. As Bill Jones, Wallace's press aide, puts it, “Lingo misunderstood the governor's plan to dramatize his position to the nation.” Adjustments were quickly made. The Attorney General made a last-minute call from Washington to Montgomery, but was informed Wallace was not available. Instead, Wallace's executive secretary, Cecil Jackson, put him on the phone with John Kohn, after telling Kennedy, “He is one of the governor's leading counsel…” Kohn informed Kennedy, “Well, first, for the record, this call was not initiated down here-it was initiated by yourself, and I am just repeating that for the record, and I don't think any human being can tell what is going to, in all reasonable probability, going to happen.”
Before the event Wallace seemed filled with a kind of twittering exhilaration. It was something like the air of a small boy about to embark on a colossal mischievous prank. Waiting for Assistant Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach to appear on the campus, says one of Wallace's aides, “he was wisecracking all over the place.” He chuckled to the general of the Alabama National Guard, when it was federalized, “Now you sonuva-bitches are on the other side, ain't you?” Only an hour or so before his public confrontation with Katzenbach, as his staff was standing in the hall outside his hotel room waiting for him to emerge, he called out, “Say, boys, I don't feel so good. How about one of yawl goin' out there and handlin' this?”
Wallace Page 18