Yeah, I heard that, but then people get tired of being annoyed. I hate it. Then, it’s like, “Oh, right. Well, what is it actually?” And then, they start thinking, “We can’t see it yet? Well now we want to see it.”
Right, right that’s good. Now, in finishing up that portion of our talk, I’m curious as to what are you working on now and what do you have coming out as far as film work goes.
Um… there is Psycho coming out on December 4th. There’s a movie called The Blouse Man that I think is going to be called something else now, Over the Moon or somethin’ else. It’s set in 1969 in the Catskills. It’s kind of an interesting story. Diane Lane plays the main character and she’s really, really good in it. Miramax is going to put that out. I know they are doing some re-editing or something, but I guess the whole reason Miramax bought it was because the reaction to it was really strong. So, I really don’t know what shape the movie’s in or anything other than the people that are in the business that have had a peek at it, like it. That, I think, is coming out in April.
There is a movie that came out in Europe and did well at film festival that I did in Spain that’s called My Brother’s Gun and that may or may not get here. It would be nice if it did. I guess it will probably come here on video, eventually or maybe it’ll come out. That’s an interesting thing. First time director, a guy who is a novelist. Some guy who’s a big success over there. He travels a lot and writes a lot and has a loyal following. Somebody wanted to make a movie out of one of his books which was called Fallen from the Sky or something like that originally. He said, “Nah, those people take books and just screw them up. I’d rather not. I don’t need any reason to do that.” They kept pestering him and, finally, said, “Well, why don’t you direct it? You love movies. You have your shelves stocked with videos. You’re a real movie buff.” He said, “No, I don’t know how to do that. I wouldn’t know how to do that.” They kept saying, “Well, we’ll just help you. What do you need?” He said, “Alright. Well, I want to do it with this cinematographer and blah, blah, blah.” So, he ended up doing it really cheap and kind of an interesting story. No one will believe it. It’s cool. I think that’s all.
Okay, I now want to talk to you a little bit about you, the artist. First, who are the people that take your breath away, I mean artist’s Artists that are out there doing stuff, painters, etc…
You know, I’m sort of ashamed to say it, [but] I don’t really have one artist that I’m crazy about. I just came across a book, a really nice book, from a retrospective show of an artist named Franz Kline. He was from that New York school in the forties-fifties. Contemporaries of his were Jackson Pollack. I kind of like his stuff, but, then again, I don’t really know enough to really… I mean, I’m starting to learn stuff now, [but] it’s just like anything. I guess you start racing bicycles or something and then you start to be interested in who raced bicycles before and who is racing bicycles now, you know what I mean? Just like anything… I have always enjoyed, to a degree, going into museums, but I’ve also been bored when I’ve done that. But, once in awhile, you’re walking around and suddenly, “Oh wow! Look at that picture or photograph.” I have had just that undisciplined sort of scatter-shot way of doing it. [If] I’m in New York City and I have time or I’m in any major city, I’d just as soon look at some kind of local folk art kind of thing. I like finding things in second hand stores. [I] find the most amazing drawings and a few things like that. The people nobody would see otherwise. But yeah… That folk artist I’m looking through and I kind of felt like there wasn’t really anything in that book of his paintings that I didn’t like in some way I guess, not that my shit necessarily looks like his at all, but I just sort of thought it was pretty good. Who do you like?
Me? Personally? Carravaggio, Munch, Klimt, that kind of stuff.
Hmm, well you know, actually, I do like Edward Munch. He’s somebody I can say that, as far as an undisciplined way, whenever I see stuff of his, I like all of it. I’ve seen stuff of his in Norway.
I’m also a big realist fan.
I was just in Italy and I went to the Uffizi Gallery. They have all the renaissance things. It’s incredible the way people did shit, although it was really all about showing the human being, not about flesh, all those tones. It’s a different way of looking at things.
Right. As far as latter day stuff, I’m big Frazetta fan, that kind of stuff. I grew up as a big comic book fan so there’s some of that kind of stuff in there as well. That’s the kind of art that you sort of don’t proudly show.
My son loves that and we make things like that when I’m… He likes drawing all the time.
There are some other artists out there that I really like Dave McKean, Bill Sienkiewicz, and Jon J. Muth. I think their work is just beautiful even though they just happen to be drawing Spiderman or whatever…
Like that guy Williams…
Robert Williams. Yeah, his stuff is real like… I want to use the word ‘mondo.’ There’s an awful lot going on there. It’s a little cartoony for me.
Kind of ham and eggs…
There is some stuff out there that’s absolutely amazing. There’s a guy doing work now that’s fully painted. A guy named Alex Ross and his stuff is really detailed, really amazing. He puts a lot of in-jokes in each panel.
I need to really to educate myself more. You know, it’s like movies or movie actors. There isn’t necessarily a particular person. There are certain paintings that I’ve liked or works of art that I would gravitate towards. In fact, [if I] thought about it more carefully then I’d be more systematic and I’d ask myself, “Well, do I like that or that?” and then I could see some sort of pattern, I suppose.
I know you work in both photograph, and is it oils?
Yeah, acrylics, oils. A mixed media.
Is that because that’s the only way you can achieve your desired affect? Or is it a tactile thing?
I like to paint and I like glue. I like gel, you know? Acrylic gel. It’s fun to play with that and see what that does. I mean, some of the things are things you’re not supposed to mix: oil, acrylics, or water. I just like to get dirty and play with it and see what happens. It’s just fun. Sometimes you get something interesting by accident by coating something with something you haven’t tried coating with before. You just have a hunch that it will do something to it. It will change the texture or alter it somehow, chemically, in an interesting way and change the tone of it. I don’t know. I don’t have a reason really for ah…
Again, it just feels right.
Yeah. I have boxes and boxes of these paint sticks that I like. I have a friend, whose name is Robby from Austin, Texas, and he one time sent me some of these paint sticks, about five or six colors and I was fucking around with making some little things. This was before that movie actually, A Perfect Murder, and I was just making little things with them; flyers, little drawings, paintings, and I really liked the texture, the way they dried really quickly, and the way you can manipulate them. What was interesting is that they were like eighty or ninety cents a piece as opposed to fifteen or twenty bucks, or even thirty with certain colors, when you buy those oil sticks at the art store. I mean, you could get a whole box for less than you can get one stick of another which you can get the same results with. What they are are livestock markers. They’re weather-proof markers that have similar properties. I mean, you can paint with them really well. So, someone sends you something and it works. I basically use whatever is around the house because, all other times, I’ll think of something I want to make and it’s late at night and there’s not going to be an art store [open]. I may think of a specific thing during the day and go get it, but, initially, I kind of use what’s in the house and things [that are] not conventional materials.
“Let’s see what pancake batter would look like…”
Exactly! [both laugh] Lemon juice, yeah. My house has gradually, over the past year and half, turned into this work shed almost. I have moved the furniture aside and there’s dr
op cloths [everywhere]. I just have boxes of these paint sticks and paint stuff so that, if I think of something, I can make it.
You are also doing some gallery showings?
I do have this show… It’s a really good gallery actually. I’m fortunate to have it. It’s at Track 16 in Santa Monica. I’m looking forward to it. That’ll be the 21st of November [through the 9th of January]. I wish I had another year to make shit but I probably have enough stuff. There will be a lot of photographs in there and a lot of newer ones.
How did all of that come about? Was it a result of your film work?
Well, I had done a couple of shows of photographs before which I don’t know if you had seen them or not but they were curious about seeing this stuff I had. They came over to the house and looked at the painting and looked at stacks and stacks of photographs I had lying around. They liked it enough to take a chance on it I guess.
Do you think that since you’re an actor, and by definition you have to be empathetic, that that helps you be more in tune with what it is to be human (or like in The Prophecy’s case, not human.) Do you think that quality sort of dovetails into your being in tune as an artist?
To paint you mean? I don’t know. I’m not sure. I mean, I don’t think that it can hurt. Part of my job description is finding out ways… There are people who act and it’s just more about their personality. They might not put, or need to put, that much thought into what they’re playing. I like to get to know the characters and I have never played a character, no matter how hideous his actions were that I didn’t really like the person I was playing somehow or feel a bond with this character in a sense. I think that certainly this painting thing that I dove into a year ago now, more or less in earnest, and I’ve kept going because of not knowing what I’m doing. If I stop and think about too much, I just won’t do anything. I have to make these things and be tolerant of my own mistakes and be open to people’s criticism or whatever. Just make them and throw them out there. It’s not like I have the luxury to sort of start from zero and just jump into it without a lot of thought and that probably will be helpful in acting. [You can’t] be so hard on yourself. Just, I don’t know, just do what you can and move on.
Years ago, there was flap about Robert Mapplethorpe’s work and whether it was ‘art.’ Do you think that art can go too far and is there some art that shouldn’t?
No. I mean, God why…? I think going too far is if you grab people off the street and force them at gun point to go into [a gallery] or a [theater] and make them look at your shit or your pathetic fucking drawings or your photographs of children being tortured. It doesn’t matter what… It’s not even about the artist, it’s about whether someone is free to look at your shit or not. I understand that people are concerned in terms of TV, because that’s something that is in your house if you choose to have it. I don’t but… And then how do you monitor what your kids watch? There are commercials and shows and then, when they get to be teenagers, they start to watch shit whether you like it or not when you’re not around. You know that’s kind of a tough one… I think some of it has to do with how much time you spend with your kid in the first years and how much you talk with them about that stuff. Ideally parents [wouldn’t] let their kids watch TV until they’re several years into their lives. Just try to take an active interest in what they are fucking being exposed to. As far as art of any kind, I think you can go too far only if you make people watch shit [they don’t want to watch]. Some people would even say, “Well, what are you talking about? It’s a performance if you create a traffic jam, take off your clothes, and force people [to watch].” Maybe that’s a statement, I don’t know.
It’s a fine line between making a statement and just being a pain in the ass.
Yeah, exactly. But I do think that to actually march someone at gunpoint into a gallery, I think that’s going too far. But as far as what the subject matter is or the materials or where you should put the stuff, as long as it’s not going to threaten someone’s life you know… I mean, if you have a gigantic guillotine that you build with a hair trigger mechanism on a freeway overpass. Obviously, that could kill someone.
I think that as long as everyone involved, the artist, the gallery, and the audience, is there of their own will, I agree with you. But, a lot of times, there are so many people out there doing stuff not because they feel like they have to do but more just to get noticed.
I find that’s true. I find that to be true in poetry. You know, I have nothing against a certain sense of competition among artists, like in sports or many other things like science. It’s not necessarily bad if it’s something that motivates you. You know, “I was going to sleep a little more but I’m going to get up and work on this thing. I want to solve this thing. I want to make this beautiful painting.” There is nothing wrong with that. But if that becomes your only reason for making the shit, then there is an emptiness. A lot of that poetry that’s loud and in your face and really not performed in an interesting way… You know, you read this shit and it’s like mostly not good writing and I wouldn’t want to read it again. The same goes for musicians and a lot of things that people do to get attention. It’s not that trying to get attention is wrong. I think that if that becomes the overriding reason for that particular performance or work of art to exist, the “I’m going to beat you” kind of mentality, if that becomes the reason for it… [Although], sometimes interesting things come out of that anyway. I mean, man, it would be interesting if a person would have a show in a gallery where the artist had to promise that the reason they painted those was because they are trying to get back at someone, another painter. “Fuck you. I can do that better than you.” If they are honest enough to say that. “Well I made this painting because Duchamp did this painting and it really pissed me off and I thought I would show people I can do better.” If people were honest enough to say that, that would be an interesting exhibition. But, anyway, I do think most that most of that stuff, that shit is shit. In the end, it doesn’t hold up over time. It’s just an end form. In movies, anything, it’s just something, a gimmick really. It’s not coming profoundly out of your subconscious in some way. You’re not really trying to connect with people. You’re just trying to only get them to look at you. You’re not really interested in communicating with them. It’s a one-way conversation, whereas a good painting or good movie is a two-way conversation, an exchange.
Each side of the fence brings something to the table
Yeah. The audience is invited to get to know something, if that makes any sense.
It makes perfect sense. So, this gallery opening is going on and you’re going to have this show going through January…
Yeah. If people express interest, we may be doing something in New York with photos, I don’t know.
Okay. And then, for you, it’s just business as usual as far as working as an actor…
Well, unless people buy everything at this show. I don’t [know] if I can really make a living doing this, but maybe… Who knows, but I don’t anticipate that so… I’ve got to find a job pretty soon. [laughs]
[laughs] However, how many times, as an aspiring actor, did you say, “I don’t know if I’m ever going to make money at this…”
I had certain doubts about it, I suppose, when I first started out, trying it out. If I’d realized it was going to take as long as it did to make a living… But that goes for a lot of things, that goes for life in general, I suppose. If people said, “Now look, you’re going to break your legs. You’re gonna get your heart broken. You’re going to say and do things to people that you wished you didn’t. You’re going to be mean and people are going to be mean to you. You’re going to see awful things. You’re going to be deathly ill. I mean at death.” Even the luckiest, most sheltered person in the world, if they really, consciously, had to make a decision, they would maybe not want to get involved in the first place. They’d just say, “Nah, I’ll just go back.” [sarcastically] Like if that is possible. But, with acting, I don�
�t know the amount of compromise and big and small moments of embarrassment, humiliation, all that frustration, self-debasing, kind of moments… I don’t know if I would have been so willing to pursue it. It was just one of those things I had an interest in. I kind of started something and it got a life of its own. It started telling me what to do, whether [it was] a certain part or certain thing, working with a certain person would teach me something or send me sort of bouncing in another direction. And, lo and behold, all these years have passed and I’m still doing it. If it was only for the money, then I wouldn’t have [kept going] because there were several years that I didn’t make enough money to pay the rent or whatever.
OK…one last question and then we’ll be done. In twenty years, would you rather be remembered as an actor who painted or a painter who acted?
I don’t know. I…uh…I really don’t give a fuck. [Laughs]
[laughs]
I’d like to know that I was honest. I was myself as far as just being an artist and being an actor or poet or photographer or painter or whatever the hell. A pebble stacker, whatever the hell you end up doing, that’s art. Being an artist is being an artist. So just be. If you only do acting, you’re still an artist. I’d just like to know that I actually challenged myself. I hope that twenty years from now I could, if I made a drawing, I could look at it and ask myself, “Am I really happy with that? Is that good enough?” I suppose Picasso that, at a certain point, he could take a shit on a napkin and probably sell it for a hundred thousand dollars, I would guess. I don’t know, but would he feel like he made something up to his standards or what he knew at that moment was true to himself? I mean, I just hope that I can have some perspective if indeed I keep doing it. I don’t know. I have no idea where I’ll be or what I’ll be doing twenty years from now or where I’ll be doing it. I would like to be around, but beyond that…
Carpe Noctem Interviews - Volume 2 Page 16