Herbert in turn was at work when I interviewed Judy in their architect-designed home in the Brentwood section of West L.A. In the interest of organization, I have shuffled material from the two interviews and have edited my transcripts to avoid duplication.
• • •
HERBERT: I’ve read enough psychology to have an idea of most of the reasons people are supposed to dig oral sex, but I’ll be damned if know of a theory that fits me. I don’t honestly know why it’s always been a big thing with me. I’m tempted to say that I like it because it’s so great, but that’s just like saying the sky is blue because that’s what color the sky is. Bad example—the smog’s so thick today I couldn’t tell you what color the sky is, or even if there’s sky up there through all that. To get back, I just can’t buy this bit that I like to be eaten because deep down inside I’m a fag. Or that I like it because I have a secret desire to perform the act on other men. If you listen to the shrinks, everything means its opposite, and you can just go around in circles forever that way and prove anything you want.
I never had a homosexual experience as a kid, and if I ever wanted to I never thought about it. As a matter of fact, I’ve had homosexual experience twice since Judy and I started swinging. Both times we were with bisexual couples and got talked into it. The first time I had a certain reluctance but was also interested in finding out what it was like to perform fellatio. I didn’t honestly expect to enjoy it but I wanted to know just what it felt like physically for a woman when she went down on a guy. I wasn’t disgusted—swinging does tend to make a person open-minded—but got no pleasure out of it whatsoever and resolved afterward not to repeat the act.
JWW: But you did perform the act a second time?
HERBERT: Yes, several months later. We met a similar couple and the husband wanted to go down on me. I told him I’d rather he didn’t, that it wasn’t my scene, and that I had tried it once with another man and hadn’t gotten anything out of it. He said something to the effect that nobody likes olives the first time, either. As it happens, this was just after our meeting with that square Midwestern couple, and I remembered how the girl had disliked the whole thing at the beginning of the evening and changed her mind later on. So I tried again, he and I did 69, and halfway through I stopped and said I couldn’t go on with it, I just found it very boring and unpleasant. He was very understanding, but that ruined the spirit of the evening.
JWW: When were you first interested in oralism?
HERBERT: Almost as far back as I can remember having any feelings about sex. I learned what it was about long before I had any firsthand experience with any kind of sex. A kid at school had a collection of dirty pictures. Men and women screwing in different positions and one of a long-haired blonde eating a guy. It just turned me on, that’s all. I couldn’t get it out of my mind, and that was close to twenty years ago, and I still remember exactly what the picture looked like, every detail. I always thought about it when I masturbated, and had fantasies of different girls in my school going down on me. I had other masturbatory fantasies, too, because I was nineteen before I first had real sex with a girl and that meant a lot of years of beating the meat. But fellatio was the thing that really excited me.
JWW: Did you have a similar early interest in cunnilingus?
HERBERT: Not at first. I didn’t learn of its existence as early as the other. Also I didn’t have that clear an idea of what a girl’s genitals were like. No playing doctor as a child or anything, and I had the idea that a girl’s pussy was dirty. It’s hard to believe that I ever felt that way, isn’t it? Later on, though, I gathered from other boys’ conversation that cunnilingus was the most foolproof way to get a girl hot. I had masturbatory fantasies of driving girls wild by eating them, and afterward they would be grateful and perform fellatio in return. But at the time it was the idea of being eaten that really got me.
• • •
JUDY: I sucked my thumb so much as a child that my mother threatened to cut it off. I had to wear braces on my teeth for four horrible years before they straightened out. They say today’s thumbsucker is tomorrow’s cocksucker—I’m sorry, I suppose I shouldn’t say that, should I?
JWW: Say anything you like. I haven’t blushed in years.
JUDY: But you’ll have to change it when you write this up, won’t you?
JWW: I doubt it, but don’t let that concern you. Say whatever seems natural to you—it probably won’t be necessary, but I can always edit the interview when I transcribe the tape.
JUDY: Where was I? Thumbsucking. Well, maybe that was a clue to my sexual nature, but it was a clue I never knew about. I didn’t have oral fantasies when I played with myself. Oh, except that I tried to kiss my own breasts, but at that age they weren’t big enough for me to reach. Aside from that I didn’t even know about it. I had heard words like suck and eat and french and blow job but wasn’t too sure what they meant. I didn’t masturbate very much, and when I did it was mostly just rubbing my clitoris and thinking about being in love and kissing a man or dancing with him. Pretty tame fantasies. I never had an orgasm from masturbation.
JWW: When did you first become interested, then?
JUDY: When I was sixteen. A year before that the braces came off and the breasts grew, and all of a sudden boys discovered I was alive. I didn’t suddenly become Paula Popular, but I began dating regularly and went steady a couple of times. In my crowd going steady meant starting off with closed-mouth kissing and gradually working up as close to screwing as you dared, and then you generally broke up and went with someone else and started in again at the beginning. I remember that french kissing really got me passionate. The first time a boy put his tongue in my mouth I just started sucking on it without even knowing what I was doing, and got carried away and hurt him. I was known as a wild kisser, so I suppose that was part of the start of it.
The fourth boy I went steady with was a senior and I knew that he had gone all the way with the last girl he went with. All the way—God, how many years has it been since I used that expression? As it turned out, he was very fast. By our fourth or fifth date we had reached the state of handling each other’s genitals, which was as far as I had ever gone before. Then we went through a long battle that almost broke us up, because he wanted to go all the—oh, to hell with that, he wanted to fuck me, and I was determined to save the magic circle for my husband.
He told me that when a man was used to steady sex he couldn’t do without it. Steady sex—he’d had intercourse maybe three or four times in the backseat of a car, that’s how steady his sex life was. I kept offering to take care of him manually, and he let me do this, but he kept saying that it was kid stuff and wouldn’t satisfy him.
JWW: Did he suggest fellatio or did you think of it yourself?
JUDY: It was his idea, but he took his time letting me know about it. He started hinting that there was “another way” to make him happy, and I didn’t want to look stupid but didn’t know what the hell he was talking about. At first I thought he meant a way to screw that wouldn’t risk pregnancy, like pulling out ahead of time, and I wasn’t interested. Then finally he pushed my head down there and whispered that I should kiss it. I didn’t realize that this was his famous “other way” but I started kissing the tip of it while I was jerking him, and then all of sudden it seemed to me that his penis was the most beautiful thing in the world and that I loved it. Not just that I loved him, but that I loved his cock. I took it in my mouth and what I did was just instinctive, but I guess I have strong instincts in that direction. The thought came to me that it was like french kissing, but much better. I got totally involved in what I was doing, it was like a dream, and then all of a sudden he came and pulled my mouth from him and I got a present all over my face and even in my hair, and that brought me down fast. But then I looked at him and saw the expression on his face, just complete and utter satisfaction, and the sight made my heart just melt with pride and happiness and everything.
JWW: I gather your relationship impr
oved from then on?
JUDY: It should have, but as it turned out the fathead had a pretty bad hang-up. He loved to be sucked but he thought any girl who did it was disgusting. You know Groucho Marx’s line about not being willing to join any club that would accept him as a member? That’s how he was. I didn’t know this at first, and so we went on dating, and every time we were together I would blow him. And I got over the idea that it was bad to have him come in my mouth. I would still spit it out afterward, I didn’t swallow it until after Herb and I were married, as matter of fact, but then I would say that even among swingers who love frenching most women don’t feel comfortable about swallowing a man’s ejaculation.
JWW: You were explaining about your dating relationship. In the course of it, did the boy perform cunnilingus on you?
JUDY: No.
JWW: Did you want him to?
JUDY: As matter of fact I suggested it to him. I had started thinking about it and wanted to know what it was like, but I wasn’t that dead set on it. Just doing it to him was enough for me. When I brought it up, he was really revolted by the whole idea. He said it was dirty, and that boys who would do it were disgusting and not real men. I didn’t mind that much that he wouldn’t do it, but I must say I was put off to think that he considered my genitals disgusting and unclean while regarded his penis as the greatest work of art outside the Louvre. But what really tore it was that he lost respect for me, and I found out that he was telling his friends what we did. When I heard that was I was furious, and we had a fight, and in the course of it he told me I was really nothing but a filthy little cocksucker and I would never be a real woman and would probably wind up a whore. And that was the last time this Juliet ever saw that particular Romeo. Wherever he is now, I’ll bet he’s married to some frozen bitch who never does anything with her tongue but lick stamps, and spends a fortune getting whores to go down on him. I hope one of them gives him trenchmouth of the cock.
• • •
HERBERT: While my big interest was fellatio, my first experience was cunnilingus. My first year in college I was dating a girl a year older than myself. I went through the motions of trying to score with her, but she made it plain she didn’t intend to and since I was a virgin myself I didn’t push it. We did have a pretty passionate thing going for awhile, though, and she suggested that I go down on her. I’m sure she’d done this before, because she was able to reach orgasm very quickly this way. I enjoyed it very much, not just the act but especially the way she responded to it. Like every virgin male at that age, I felt very anxious about my virility, and the fact that I could make her come with such ease was welcome reassurance.
JWW: Did you ask her to fellate you?
HERBERT: Never. When I think of what a stupid kid I was I feel like taking a trip back in a time machine and giving myself a good swift kick in the ass. I’m sure she would have done it, but at the time I was scared to suggest it. I would eat her for a half hour and go back to my room and jerk off thinking about her blowing me. I was hoping the idea would come to her out of the blue. It probably did, and when I think of each of us waiting for the other to say something—
JWW: When did you first experience fellatio?
HERBERT: A little less than a year after I broke up with that girl. I spent the summer after my freshman year as a camp counselor. I dated a batch of girl counselors and went down on two of them. One didn’t like it at all and that cooled our relationship. The other absolutely loved it. After I first brought her to climax that way she said, “Now I think you deserve a reward,” and pulled me on top of her. We had coitus, the first time for me but certainly not for her. This happened about three weeks before camp ended for the summer. We were together every chance we got, which wasn’t too often because of night duty, but I suppose we had intercourse a dozen times before the season was over. She liked me to eat her but preferred me to stop before she climaxed so that she could have her orgasm in coitus. I wanted her to return the oral favor and suggested it.
JWW: But she refused?
HERBERT: Not exactly, but she might as well have. Her idea of it was to give me a couple of tight-lipped pecks on the head of my penis and then lie back and wait for me to mount her. I gave her an idea of what I had in mind, even sucked her finger to show her what I wanted her to do, but she said it seemed silly to do that when we could have so much more fun doing the real thing—by which she meant vaginal intercourse.
The following winter somebody gave me the address of whorehouse in the nearest large city, which was about fifty miles from the campus. I drove there all by myself and couldn’t have been much more nervous if I’d still been a virgin. I was desperately afraid that a prostitute would be insulted and disgusted if I asked her to perform orally. Of course the girl wasn’t. She wasn’t even surprised and asked me if I wanted trip around the world for twenty-five dollars. The ordinary rate was ten. I didn’t know what a trip around the world might be, so told her I just wanted a blow job. I was afraid it might be a letdown after the way I had built it up in my mind, but that whore knew what she was doing. She didn’t rush it, either. It was, well, fantastic. And that’s the perfect word for it, because it was straight out of fantasy.
After that I was regular customer. I stopped masturbating finally. I went there once every two weeks, although it was a hell of a long drive and my budget couldn’t really stand the strain of spending five bucks a week on hookers. I went on dating during this time, naturally, and had several sexual relationships that included coitus and cunnilingus, and two of the girls involved fellated me as well. I don’t think they particularly enjoyed it but did it to please me. It was exciting for me, but their technique was so inferior to my hookers that there was no comparison. So I still had this dream of falling in love with a girl with a mad passion for fellatio, but didn’t really believe it could happen. I thought that the only way to get it done right was to go to a prostitute. Incidentally, I finally found out what that hooker meant by a trip around the world—it was a tongue bath of the whole body, with oral caresses of the anus and scrotum and finally fellatio. The night I found out about it I only had ten dollars with me, so for the next two weeks I skipped lunches and economized in other areas until I felt justified in springing for the twenty-five bucks. Never was money better spent.
I figured this was a pattern that would go on forever, love affairs with girls, eventually marriage to one of them, and the special treat of professional fellatio now and then. But at the start of my senior year I had my first date with Judy, and from then on everything was different.
• • •
JUDY: From what other french-loving girls have told me, I was very lucky I didn’t wind up with a really terrible reputation. After the big fight and the break-up, I was suddenly the most popular girl in school, and every boy who took me out had the same idea in mind. All I would have to do was go along with it and that would have been the end. But fortunately the guy had brainwashed me and for a period of time I actually believed oral sex was unnatural and perverted, so I turned all the guys down, and by the time I got over this reaction the rumors about me had died down and everyone decided my former steady was a liar.
JWW: When did you next perform fellatio?
JUDY: Not for a long time. Not at all in high school, and in fact not until the summer after my first year of college. During summer vacation I had a few dates with a boy whom I had known in high school but had never gone out with. He later turned out to be homosexual, incidentally. Maybe he was one all along. We were necking up a storm in his car, and he had my bra off and was sort of nuzzling my breasts while he fingers me under my panties. I said, “Suck it, suck it,” meaning my nipple, because the nuzzling around was making me nervous. It turned out to be one of those groovy misunderstandings. He stopped and looked at me and said, “Is that what you would like me to do?” I said sure, why not, and the next thing I knew he was crouched on the floorboards of the car pulling my panties down. I had never suspected that cunnilingus could be that wonderful
. I had had orgasms before from being fingered by boys but they were nothing like this. When he finished he didn’t even have to ask me, I grabbed him and wouldn’t let go. When he came I spat it out and started it all over again and got him hard almost immediately. It was the most wonderful sensation the way it was soft at first and then got hard in my mouth. While I did it he fingered me and I came almost the same instant he did.
JWW: And you continued to date him for the rest of the summer?
JUDY: Yes. And the sex was good, but the problem was that the more we got to know each other, the less we liked each other. He wasn’t my type at all and we had nothing to talk about. I went back to school and met Herbert, and there was just this tremendous mutual attraction, as if we sensed from the moment we met that we were right for each other. I thought he was the wittiest man I had ever met as well as the most attractive. We went to a movie and then out for beer and fried chicken, and we talked and talked about everything on earth, and all through the evening all I could think of was that I wanted his penis, wanted it in my mouth.
He drove me to my dormitory and didn’t even make a pass. He gave me a very chaste kiss and asked if he could see me the following night. And I said yes, and then I knew I should get out of the car and go inside, but also knew what I wanted to do and figured the hell with it, if he took it the wrong way and thought I was tramp then I was just kidding myself by thinking we were a perfect match.
So I turned to him and said, “I’m a virgin.”
The New Sexual Underground: Crossing the Last Boundaries (John Warren Wells on Sexual Behavior Book 10) Page 11