by Ben Karlin
JESSICA: Oh my God. Wait, like, Rodney . . . I remember that.
RODNEY: [Laughs] Do you?
JESSICA: [Stammers] You better not be messing with me because I really do remember that now. You know what’s so funny, ummm . . . I want to ask you if the kiss was good? But what’s so weird is that I don’t remember anything about your room and I don’t remember anything about the music, but now that you mention the song . . .
RODNEY: [Laughs]
JESSICA: I actually do remember the kiss.
RODNEY: [Laughs]
JESSICA: What, you don’t believe me?
RODNEY: [Laughs] I don’t know if I do.
JESSICA: Yeah, I really do remember, and I remember because you had a warm mouth.
RODNEY: I remember [the kiss] being . . . I remember it being kind of a little bit of a mess.
JESSICA: That you were?
RODNEY: Yeah, I’m . . .
JESSICA: Or that I was?
RODNEY: No, I remember it being a little all over the place.
JESSICA: You might be right, but I remember it being warm.
RODNEY: That’s nice.
JESSICA: And wet, but very warm, and nice warm.
RODNEY: Well that’s good. Well, I am glad [snickers] that I could help you dimly remember our kiss.
JESSICA: I recall good feelings.
RODNEY: Do you remember when you dumped me?
JESSICA: Uh-Uhhh.
RODNEY: You called me up. I remember being on my parents’ phone in their bedroom. See, I remember this stuff. I don’t have a good memory in general, but I do for this stuff.
JESSICA: Uh-huh.
RODNEY: I remember feeling that it was kind of inevitable. Like when you called me up, it was, “Of course she’s going to break up with me.” Like I wasn’t surprised.
JESSICA: Right . . . Well, like through word of mouth it probably got out there beforehand.
RODNEY: Probably so [laughs]. Like someone asked me if I minded that you broke up with me.
JESSICA: [Laughs]
RODNEY: Ummmm . . . so after that was in December of eighth grade . . . so like five months later we graduated . . . like five or six months later we graduated from junior high school and went to high school, and I remember springtime of eighth grade being kind of a really intense time.
JESSICA: Springtime of eighth grade. Big-time. Totally, me too.
RODNEY: How come?
JESSICA: Ummmm . . . I think like I was getting a handle on what was going on and meeting guys I liked . . . and meeting new friends, like people that I connected more with.
RODNEY: Okay, soooo . . . ummmm . . . so that’s kind of how I remember it too. We went out in December . . . the tail end of like a time where we were all pretty clueless. By the time May rolled around, people in our grade were having sex. And I feel like in December they weren’t.
JESSICA: Oh, isn’t that so strange? ’Cause like when you brought up the subject about kissing, I was like, what? Eighth grade? That’s all we were doing? I remember definitely everyone was doing third base and stuff.
RODNEY: Exactly. Yeah, people were starting then. I don’t remember what I did last week, but I remember the first three people in our grade that went to third base and what order that was in. You know?
JESSICA: Me too.
RODNEY: Soooooo . . . umm . . . like, the other thing I remember is you called me up and said you didn’t want to go out anymore and . . . before [we went out], I didn’t walk around like with an official crush on you. But once you made that phone call [and dumped me] . . . I had an official crush on you.
JESSICA: Right.
RODNEY: Plus, by the time we got to high school . . . you were a pretty popular girl, and when we went out I would say you weren’t as popular.
JESSICA: Yeah . . . I . . . absolutely.
RODNEY: And I remember that [when we went out] I maybe I had this sense that . . . you know, “Okay, this girl is supercute, it’s only a matter of time before this is going to end.” I distinctly remember now that during those two weeks we were going out . . . walking through [the junior high] with the really cool guys in our grade and them being like, “Aren’t you going out with that girl Jessica?” And I was like, “Yeah.” And one of them said, “She’s a kind of cute,” or whatever they would have said. I remember that I was superpsyched that the cool guys in our school were noticing that I was going out with you . . . but also being aware that, deep down, some giant mechanism was starting to click into place. You know what I mean?
JESSICA: Yes, I do.
RODNEY: And by the time, you know, the spring rolls around and you had starting going out with Leo Perelli, this really cool guy, it was like . . . painful. Inevitable. Like there was this brief window that someone like me, you know . . . had a chance. You know. And then [the window] closed.
JESSICA: Oh my God. So funny.
RODNEY: So what kind of memories do you have after junior high school?
JESSICA: Sam and I hung out and we were friends, but after [junior high school] we mainly drifted apart and I don’t remember seeing her so much in high school. But I remember seeing you throughout high school [because we were in the same alternative school program]. Ummm . . . and I remember seeing you and being very aware of you, which is kind of odd because you would think I would be more aware of your sister, and we were BFF forever when we were younger.
RODNEY: How do you remember? I mean, like . . .
JESSICA: And and and [stammers] honestly—and I am being honest because we are doing the interview, so don’t be repeating all this information—but honestly, I think, like, I always had a little crush on you, like in high school.
RODNEY: Really.
JESSICA: And, you know, and even after that.
RODNEY: But . . . why would you [laughs] . . .
JESSICA: Yeah [laughs].
RODNEY: But why would you also . . . that’s a hard thing for me to process. It’s hard for me to process what you said, so I need to change the subject.
JESSICA: Let me ask you a question. It’s off topic.
RODNEY: Okay, that’s no problem.
JESSICA: Did you test the recording first?
RODNEY: No. It’s blinking red and I tested it before, so I am praying.
JESSICA: Okay, I was just wondering, because I can tell you now that there is no chance that I can do this interview again [giggles].
RODNEY: [Laughs]
JESSICA: No, this is a one-shot deal.
RODNEY: I am sure . . . I understand.
JESSICA: Okay.
RODNEY: Umm, I was gonna . . . How is that true [that you had a crush on me] but yet you don’t remember anything about us going out in eighth grade?
JESSICA: Ummmm, let me think. . . . I don’t know. You, like . . . even if it’s someone you are not looking at in a romantic way. Even if . . . even . . . I don’t know . . . even if you should have looked at that person like that . . . Does that make any sense?
RODNEY: Yeah.
JESSICA: Okay, so something like that.
RODNEY: Yeah . . . the reason I remember all this stuff so well is that it made a strong impression on me at the time. You know, it makes an impression when you think about it a lot. I guess . . . ummm . . . you were like my supercrush. You were the first hard-core crush I had, and like the one that . . . like I remember most of my interactions with you. I had a big crush on you throughout high school. Does that surprise you?
JESSICA: No [laughs]. It didn’t—doesn’t surprise me.
RODNEY: Did anyone tell you that?
JESSICA: No.
RODNEY: No one ever told you that?
JESSICA: No.
RODNEY: Because I talked about it a lot. I talked about it all the time. If you just called up any of my friends and said, “Who did Rodney Rothman have a big crush on in high school?,” they would say . . .
JESSICA: [Laughs] Right. Umm . . . it wasn’t that.
RODNEY: I don’t think I was the only one. A lot of
guys had a crush on you. Was that something that you are aware of?
JESSICA: Oh my God [pauses]. Ummm . . . yeah. I mean . . . let’s say that I am somewhat crushable [giggles].
RODNEY: [Laughs] That’s something you walk around knowing?
JESSICA: Yeah. If it was about dating boys, that wasn’t something I was too worried about. I like to flirt.
RODNEY: Right right right.
JESSICA: It comes somewhat naturally.
RODNEY: Yeah, I think that’s . . . I think that’s part of why, you know . . . like why I like you or why I had a crush on you, rather than the other five hundred people we were growing up with, is that . . . yeah, like there was something even when we were like twelve or thirteen years old. There was something going on that I didn’t fully comprehend, but I knew it was kind of awesome. Ya know? [Giggles] And that I wanted to be around it. Ya know what I mean? It was like a flirtatiousness or sexiness. Now it seems gross to think of a thirteen-year-old like this, but I guess . . .
JESSICA: [Laughs] Yeah.
RODNEY: And then we graduated. I remember seeing you occasionally after high school. I remember lots of painful interactions with you. Because every time I see you I basically go back [to that age] when I met you. It doesn’t really matter how old I am. Like I saw you when I was twenty-six, and I felt like a twelve-year-old all night, you know?
[Long pause]
JESSICA: That sounds nice [laughs].
RODNEY: It’s a [giggles, pauses] ummm . . . do you remember seeing me since college at all?
JESSICA: Yeah, I remember. I remember you seemed the same, like, you know, I feel like I see you, I don’t think that you are that different than when you were twelve.
RODNEY: [Laughs]
JESSICA: And that is a compliment.
RODNEY: Well, here’s a question. So you were like a really a big part of my life, like growing up for me. But I was clearly not that for you. So who was that for you?
JESSICA: Well . . . a couple of people. But definitely the defining person in growing up was Leo. Absolutely. It was a constant something for us, drawing us back together. But my first one would be [giggles] Jon Nelson.
RODNEY: [Giggles] Oh no. Okay, rank the following people in terms of who you were most into.
JESSICA: Okay, go for it.
RODNEY: Me, Nick Bogaty, Jon Nelson, Jeff Harris. Let’s go with those four.
JESSICA: It would be Jon, you, Jeff, and Frank.
RODNEY: Frank?
JESSICA: Wait. No, no, no wait.
RODNEY: Now I have to worry about Frank? Who’s Frank?
JESSICA: Wait, didn’t you? You said Frank. I didn’t make that up.
RODNEY: I don’t know who Frank is. Who’s Frank?
JESSICA: Didn’t you have a friend Frank?
RODNEY: No [laughs].
JESSICA: Oh my God. I swear you said Frank. Okay, who are the people again? Okay, so it’s Jon, you, Nick, Jeff.
RODNEY: Oh really?
JESSICA: Yeah.
RODNEY: I feel like you are telling me that because you don’t want to hurt my feelings.
JESSICA: [Pauses] I would never do that. I . . . no way. I am totally being honest.
RODNEY: [Pauses] Ummmmm . . .
JESSICA: I am a terrible liar.
RODNEY: You could be lying now.
JESSICA: I really enjoy telling the truth. You know, there are people you daydream about, uhh, about kissing . . . and there are people you don’t daydream about kissing.
RODNEY: Right . . . that makes sense. Ummm . . . so . . . [laughs, stammers]
JESSICA: Don’t ask me the next question.
RODNEY: Okay, so . . . have you ever been dumped?
JESSICA: Noooooo.
RODNEY: Really.
JESSICA: I have never been dumped.
RODNEY: Really.
JESSICA: I am the first one out if I don’t think it’s going to work, and my psychic says that the fear of being hurt prevents that from happening. Soooo [laughs].
RODNEY: Your psychic says that?
JESSICA: I can’t believe I am saying some of this shit. Yeah. That’s what she said yesterday. You know when it’s not going to work and you are better off bowing out. I am not very persistent, but I like men who are.
RODNEY: I haven’t been dumped either.
JESSICA: Reallllly?
RODNEY: Yeah, certainly not since college.
JESSICA: [Stammers]. Really?
RODNEY: Don’t sound so surprised.
JESSICA: But don’t you wonder if all the times [you’ve dumped] other people . . . somehow it’s going to come back one day? Because I am. I am really afraid [laughs].
RODNEY: More I worry about, like, maybe my sense of what is working is screwed up and I am pulling the rip cord on good . . . on some things that could work. If I knew how to make them work . . . you know?
JESSICA: Oh yeah . . . yeah. I know that feeling too. Yup. Maybe you would like the number of my psychic?
RODNEY: Yeah, maybe I would.
JESSICA: She may clear up some issues . . . underlying issues that you are not aware of.
RODNEY: She may just tell me the same thing that she told you.
JESSICA: [Giggles] She can’t tell us the same thing.
RODNEY: Well what about now? Do you have a boyfriend now?
JESSICA: Nope. I just had a breakup about, ummm . . . three weeks ago.
RODNEY: What was that all about?
JESSICA: We dated for about four years on and off. On and off and on and off and finally this. I think we are finally broken up for good. He’s a wonderful person and I love him very much.
RODNEY: I also just broke up with someone about three or four weeks ago.
JESSICA: Really. How long were you guys together for?
RODNEY: Not very long . . . about three or four months. It was kind of . . . it was kind of . . . sort of intense for that period. But she was in New York.
JESSICA: She was in New York for all of the time?
RODNEY: She was in Brooklyn, and I met someone in L.A. and was hanging out with them a little . . . like not dating them or anything . . . like just seeing them at parties or getting a drink every now and again, and I was kind of interested . . . and I felt I had to choose between . . .
JESSICA: So then you guys split up then.
RODNEY: Yeah, it was . . . we split up, but it was . . . I don’t know. It was not a good scene.
JESSICA: What happened to the girl that was in L.A.?
RODNEY: Well, we hung out a little bit. It was cool. It was also kind of a little weird [stammers]. It was just like . . . it was kind of pretty low-key. But [then] I had to go away for a few months for a job.
JESSICA: Do you want to be married?
RODNEY: I do, actually. I am kind of into it.
JESSICA: How much on a scale of one to ten?
RODNEY: [Laughs] Ummm, gosh. I don’t know, like seven or eight . . . I wanna be, like, in a relationship that is like a good marriage. I don’t necessarily need a label, but I wouldn’t necessarily be against it. What about you?
JESSICA: I don’t need a label either. But, yeah, I am definitely into it. I am at about ten.
RODNEY: Really.
JESSICA: Absolutely. Uh-hmm. But I also really want children. And there’s a little more pressure for me to get started.
RODNEY: Right.
JESSICA: Yeah [stammers], I am absolutely at a ten. But I have come this far, so I will wait until it’s right, you know? But yeah, I am at a ten. [Pauses] It’s funny revealing so many things in my life [to you].
RODNEY: Do you feel like you’re talking to me or just taking to some random . . . ?
JESSICA: I . . . yeah . . . it’s weird. Like I feel like I am talking to you, but at the same time . . . I like talking about myself, but I would never talk about myself this much . . . in a row.
RODNEY: This is the longest conversation we have ever had.
JESSICA: By far. I think you are right. I forgo
t the question.
RODNEY: I am not sure there even was one.
JESSICA: I don’t know, but . . . I remember now. No, I feel like I am talking to you. It’s comfortable but a little funny at the same time.
RODNEY: Yeah.
JESSICA: When it . . . when we see each other again it will be like, “Was that you on the phone?”
RODNEY: [Laughs] This is something I wanted to ask you before, and I forgot. But I want to see if you remember this. Do you remember . . . I don’t know . . . like five or six or seven years ago, Ross Venokur used to have these parties after Thanksgiving and people would go over to his house . . . and we would all hang out there? Do you remember this at all?
JESSICA: Yes, I do remember. Not very well.
RODNEY: You came to the party with your sister. We were like twenty-five. I was superpsyched ’cause I still had a crush on you, and . . . I became a twelve-year-old. Then I didn’t talk to you like . . . the whole time you were there. I wanted to play it cool. So I didn’t talk to you. And then my memory is that you left the party with Peter and a couple of people. Then Peter called me and told me you were upset and crying [because] I didn’t talk to you.
JESSICA: I remember this. This is great. I can’t believe . . . I remember that . . . yeah, you’re right. I remember that. That’s true.
RODNEY: What was that all about?
JESSICA: I think that was more that I am definitely a sensitive person. I felt really rejected. Rejected isn’t the right word, it’s . . . I felt really bad, I guess. It’s like someone . . . I felt you understood me, so then [when you didn’t talk to me], it made me feel bad. So, yeah, I was really upset.
RODNEY: Yeah, I was really upset when I heard that. I was shocked. Because I think that . . . I think by then I had fully accepted that you just saw me as Samantha’s brother and I was surprised and confused that you would have that reaction, and then I remember calling you up and I didn’t mention that I heard any of this stuff, but I remember calling you up and I basically asked you out, and . . . I think . . .
JESSICA: Noooooooo . . . uhhhhhh, really?
RODNEY: Yeah, but I think I did it in a really, you know, in a kind of way where if you said no or something . . .