Mr. Spencer: Well, certainly I wasn’t at the debate. I have debated Dinesh myself, you can see the debate on YouTube if you’re interested, we were debating because Dinesh contends in his book, The Enemy at Home, that essentially Britney Spears caused 9/11.
(Laughter)
Professor Kreeft: That’s not that far off!
Mr. Spencer: That the American pop culture going into the Islamic world made these straitlaced moral people rise up and strike back against us. That, of course, completely ignores—and I don’t think Dinesh is even aware of—the fact that they were fighting jihads against us before pop culture was immoral. As a matter of fact, it’s noteworthy, Sayyid Qutb, one of the key theorists of the Muslim Brotherhood, came to the United States in 1948 and spent two years here in Colorado. And he wrote about his experiences in America and how they hardened his understanding that America had to be destroyed and it was this deeply immoral principality. And in 1948, Doris Day was on top of the pop charts. The idea that that kind of thing was immoral actually betrays the fact that if you look back even in Crusader literature, you find that the Islamic world generally always thinks of the Christian world as immoral. And the immorality is ultimately beside the point because, as I said before, the teachings of Islam say, “Fight the Jews and Christians.” It doesn’t say, “Leave the moral ones alone and only fight the immoral ones.” It says, “Fight the Jews and Christians.”
Professor Kreeft: Is the difference, then, between the Muslims and the Christians [is] that during the Crusades, Muslims put chastity belts on their men and it said, “Make war, not love?”
Questioner No. 6: I was wondering, what difference [is] there between our concept, the Christian concept, of the ultimate beatitude, heaven, and the Muslim concept of that, and what effect that may have on motivations like you mentioned earlier, “to lose your life” or “take a life for Allah”?
Mr. Spencer: Charles de Foucauld, who is a blessed now, lived in North Africa and was killed by jihadis there. Earlier in his life, before he dedicated himself to that kind of life in North Africa, he essentially was a libertine. And when he looked at the Islamic idea of Paradise, when he first encountered Muslims and the Qur’anic teaching about Paradise and the afterlife, he said he had tasted those pleasures and he knew they were not the ultimate good and not the ultimate joy and not the ultimate happiness, and so he knew that Islam was not the true faith, because he knew that the soul needed something else. But the Islamic vision of Paradise is, just as you may already have heard, it’s essentially what you might expect a 14-year-old boy to dream up as being the highest good.
(Laughter)
Mr. Spencer: Lots of girls, lots of cool breezes, lots to drink, it’s a pleasure palace!
Professor Kreeft: It sounds like Boston College!
(Laughter)
Professor Zmirak: I wonder why they don’t go to Vegas?
Mr. Spencer: You could start a successful nightclub and call it ‘Muslim Paradise.’ It’d be very pious.
(Laughter)
Professor Kreeft: I think when the pious Muslim gets to Paradise he will indeed find forty virgins, but they will be nuns.
(Laughter)
Questioner No. 7: I’m curious to hear from both of the panelists what our public policy should look like with respect to Muslim practice in the United States.
Professor Kreeft: No question: even-handed equal protection, equal rights, no privileges, nothing special. Here is American law: it is not Muslim or anti-Muslim; it is not Christian or anti-Christian. It’s based on universal human rights. If they don’t like it, too bad!
Mr. Spencer: I’m all for that.
Questioner No. 7: Well, there were jokes about enforcing sedition laws and—
Professor Kreeft: I will support the right of Muslims to build a mosque or Muslim center by 9/11; I would also support the right of an anti-Muslim or Jewish organization to put something right next to it.
Audience member: In Saudi Arabia?
Professor Kreeft: Yes.
Mr. Spencer: I believe absolutely in human rights and in the United States Constitution and that Muslims should be accorded all those rights. That doesn’t mean, however, that the supremacists’ initiatives, including the triumphal mosque at Ground Zero, should be allowed; that’s not really a religious freedom issue at all. It’s a question of whether a mosque like the Dome of the Rock (built on the site of the Jewish Temple) or like the Hagia Sophia (converted from the grandest church in Christendom) should be allowed to mark the victory of Muslims on 9/11—which is how it will be understood in the Islamic world.
But that’s a side issue: What should we do in terms of public policy? Dr. Kreeft is right: Enforce our laws and not accord any special rights, which Muslims are pressing for today in all kinds of ways, to Muslims or anyone else. And if we did that, then a lot of this problem would be solved. There’s also an example, I think, for us in how the MacArthur occupation government in Japan after World War II treated state Shinto. Shintoism was the militaristic fuel that fueled the Japanese war machine; the militaristic ideology. And after World War II, when MacArthur was in charge in Japan, he said, “Shintoism as an individual religious faith should not be interfered with at all, but Shintoism will have no place in the government or in making public policy with preference over any other group.
Questioner No. 7: Well, wasn’t a major crux of your argument that orthodox Muslim practice encourages this bad behavior?
Mr. Spencer: Yeah. And so what you have here is a situation where we have to understand that there are elements of orthodox Muslim practice that Muslims are going to have to give up in the United States because they are not in accord with American law. And that is not something that is without precedent, and it is not something that’s against the First Amendment. Look at Mormon polygamy, which has come up already. The United States government did not hesitate to outlaw polygamy, even though it was a religious tenet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And this was considered to be something within the national interest. I don’t think it’s the least incompatible with the First Amendment to understand that there are certain elements of Islam which Muslims must not practice in the United States because they are against the national interest and in contradiction to the freedoms guaranteed to us by the U.S. Constitution.
(Applause)
Questioner No. 8: I was wondering if you could answer this. I’m sure you’re probably at least familiar with the supremacy clause in the Qur’an that says that in order to honor Allah you must kill all the infidels, first the Saturdays and then the Sundays. So how is it that you would justify that statement that it is easier to work with the Enlightenmentists [sic] when their view, the Muslim’s view, is inherently contradictory to Judeo-Christian values, where the Enlightenment’s view is not?
Professor Zmirak: OK, first, you had a clarification?
Mr. Spencer: Yeah, I did, I wanted to point out that the Qur’an does not say to kill all the infidels, it says actually to kill the mushrikeen, which are the polytheists, those who commit shirk, which is the association of partners with Allah. Usually, but not universally, Jews and Christians are not considered to be mushrikun, they are considered to be “People of the Book.” And the People of the Book have a third option; they don’t have to be killed or converted. They can be subjugated as dhimmis. Ultimately, however, there is a hadith that is very pernicious where Muhammad says, “The end times will not come until Muslims kill Jews. And the Jews hide behind trees and the trees cry out and say, ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’” Now that is an authenticated hadith, that is, one that is considered to be part of Islamic doctrine. And so it is considered to be a laudable practice for a Muslim to kill a Jew, because it is something that hastens the coming of the end times, in which all things will be consummated. But anyway, it’s not specifically in the Qur’an like that, that’s all.
Professor Zmirak: Did you want to respond?
Professor Kreeft: Well, most
Muslims in the West do not believe or practice that. And I suppose Bob must be right in saying that if everything in the Qur’an must be accepted literally and practiced, then these are bad Muslims. So in that sense I agree with him that the best Muslim is a bad Muslim.
Appendix
Some Fundamental Differences Between Islam and Christianity
I. The Nature of God
Islam: One single person, an absolute unity.
Christianity: Three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Islam: Creator and master of all, but not a father. Human beings are his slaves.
Christianity: Father of all creation.
Islam: No free will. Allah chooses to send people to hell rather than guide them to the truth.
Christianity: Free will. God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Islam: Allah places inclinations to both good and evil within the soul.
Christianity: God is good and created man good; evil is the rejection of God.
Islam: No limits can be placed upon the sovereignty of Allah, the absolute monarch, including even consistency.
Christianity: God is good and consistent in his actions.
II. Jesus
Islam: Jesus is a Muslim prophet, and a human being like any other.
Christianity: Jesus is the Son of God, both divine and human.
Islam: Jesus was not crucified, but it seemed to the Jews as if he was. He did not die on the cross and so did not rise from the dead and is not anyone’s Savior.
Christianity: Jesus was crucified for our sins and rose from the dead to save us from our sins.
Islam: Jesus is a human prophet, the nephew of Moses.
Christianity: Jesus is the divine Son, and foster-son of St. Joseph.
Islam: Jesus announces that Muhammad will come after him and guide mankind to all truth.
Christianity: Jesus announces that the Holy Spirit will come after him and guide mankind to all truth.
Islam: Jesus will return at the end of the world, destroy Christianity, and Islamize the world.
Christianity: Jesus will return at the end of the world to initiate the divine judgment.
III. Divine Revelation
Islam: The biblical prophets were all Muslims who taught Islam. Their messages were twisted and hijacked to create what we know as Judaism and Christianity.
Christianity: The biblical prophets were all Jews who were preparing the way for the coming of Christ.
IV. The Moral Law
Islam: There are no moral absolutes beyond what is good for the advance and defense of Islam.
Christianity: There are moral absolutes; e.g., those delineated in the Ten Commandments and the precepts derived therefrom.
Islam: Deception of unbelievers is allowed when believers are at war or under other kinds of pressure.
Christianity: Mental reservation allowed in extreme cases, but never outright deception.
Islam: The goods of the unbelievers may be taken as the spoils of war, and unbelievers subjugated under Islamic rule must pay a special tax from which Muslims are exempt.
Christianity: Theft, like any intrinsically immoral act, is never justified.
Islam: Muslims’ lives are more valuable than those of non-Muslims.
Christianity: All human beings are equal in dignity before God.
Islam: Virtue is enforced in society by the threat of draconian punishments.
Christianity: Virtue involves the free choice of the good.
Islam: Many Islamic scholars find no Islamic prohibition for artificial contraception.
Christianity: Artificial contraception is a sin against the purposes of marriage.
Islam: Abortion is permitted through the first trimester and, according to some scholars, beyond that point.
Christianity: Abortion is murder.
Islam: A man may marry up to four wives.
Christianity: A man cleaves to his wife and they become one flesh.
Islam: A man may divorce his wife by saying, “You are divorced.”
Christianity: “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”
Islam: A man may buy sex slaves and keep them in addition to his wives.
Christianity: Slavery of any kind is contrary to the dignity of the human person.
Islam: In Shi’ite Islam, a man may enter into a temporary marriage, a marriage with a specified ending point.
Christianity: Marriage is indissoluble.
About the author
Robert Spencer is the director of Jihad Watch (www.jihadwatch.org), a program of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and the author of twelve books, including two New York Times best sellers, The Truth about Muhammad and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). Spencer, a Melkite Greek Catholic, has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army’s Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.
Endnotes
1 Quotations from the Qur’an are taken from A. J. Arberry, The Koran Interpreted (London: George Allen & Unwin Ltd., 1955).
2 Peter Kreeft, Ecumenical Jihad (San Francisco, Ignatius Press, 1996), 26.
3 Ibid., 30.
4 “Religion and Ethics in Global Women’s Issues,” Santa Clara University, November 6, 2009. http://www.scu.edu/ethics-center/world-affairs/systems/WomensIssues.cfm
5 Barbara Crossette, “Vatican Drops Fight Against U.N. Population Document,” New York Times, September 10, 1994.
6 Donna Lee Bowen, “Abortion, Islam, and the 1994 Cairo Population Conference,” International Journal of Middle East Studies 29(2), 1997, 161.
7 Jeff Schogol, “McChrystal denies claims of secret military crusade against Islam,” Stars and Stripes, January 21, 2011.
8 “Priest says Muslim extremists want to rid Middle East of Christians,” Catholic News Agency, December 19, 2010.
9 “6 dead in religion-torn central Nigerian region,” Associated Press, January 24, 2011.
10 Aid to the Church in Need, “Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries 1998 Report: Iraq.” http://www.alleanzacattolica.org/acs/acs_english/report_98/iraq.htm.
11 Bridget Johnson, “Bipartisan effort pressures Obama to help Iraq’s Christians,” The Hill, December 25, 2010.
12 “Baghdad church hostage drama ends in bloodbath,” BBC, November 1, 2010.
13 “Death toll in Egypt church bomb blast rises to 22,” Press Trust of India, January 3, 2011.
14 “Egypt on alert as Copts gather for Christmas Eve,” BBC, January 6, 2011.
15 “Sunni Islam’s al-Azhar freezes talks with the Vatican,” Deutsche Presse Agentur, January 20, 2011.
16 “Al-Azhar asks Coptic Church to denounce US religious discrimination claims,” Al Masry Al Youm, November 26, 2010.
17 “Egypt recalls Vatican envoy over pope remarks,” Agence France-Presse, January 11, 2011.
18 Rick Westhead, “Some Christians in Pakistan convert fear into safety,” Toronto Star, January 20, 2011.
19 “Punjab governor Salman Taseer assassinated in Islamabad,” BBC, January 4, 2011.
20 “Pope insults Muslims, say MPs,” The Times, January 12, 2011.
21 “Pakistan: Islamists criticise Pope’s anti-blasphemy law comments,” Adn Kronos International, January 11, 2011.
22 Muhammed Ibn Ismaiel Al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari: The Translation of the Meanings, translated by Muhammad M. Khan, Darussalam, 1997, vol. 9, book 84, no. 57.
23 Reliance of the Traveller, o8.1, o8.4.
24 IslamOnline.net, April 2006. www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01c.shtml##top3. This article has been removed from the IslamOnline site, but is quoted in Robert Spencer, “Death to the Apostates,” FrontPageMagazine.com, October 24, 2006.
25 “One-legged Afghan Red Cross worker set to be hanged after converting to Christianity,” Daily Ma
il, February 7, 2011; Sayed Salahuddin, “Man faces death over Christianity,” Reuters, March 19, 2006.
26 Afghanistan Constitution, Adopted by Grand Council on January 4, 2004. http://www.servat.unibe.ch/law/icl/af00000_.html.
27 Tim Albone, “Anger over Christian convert in Kabul who faces death,” The Times, March 21, 2006.
28 Maggie Michael, “Threats force Egyptian convert to hide,” Associated Press, August 12, 2007.
29 Abdallah Daher, Sarah Pollak & Dale Hurd, “Ex-Muslim on the Run for Conversion,” CBN News, March 27, 2008.
30 David Pryce-Jones, The Closed Circle: An Interpretation of the Arabs (Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2002), 31-2.
31 Stephen Farrell and Rana Sabbagh Gargour, “‘All my staff at the church have been killed—they disappeared,’” The Times, December 23, 2006.
32 Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), “Islamist Leader in London: No Universal Jihad As Long As There is No Caliphate,” MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 435, October 30, 2002.
33 Jonathan Adelman and Agota Kuperman, “Christian Exodus from the Middle East,” Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, December 19, 2001. Reprinted at www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=155713.
34 Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), “Friday Sermons in Saudi Mosques: Review and Analysis,” MEMRI Special Report No. 10, September 26, 2002. www.memri.org. This sermon is undated, but it recently appeared on the Saudi website www.alminbar.net.
35 Sonia Verma, “First Catholic Church Opens in Qatar, Sparking Fear of Backlash Against Christians,” Fox News, March 14, 2008.
36 Carmel Crimmins, “Philippines’ Islamic city proud to be different,” Reuters, March 17, 2008.
37 This sermon is undated. Like the others quoted here, it was posted at the Saudi website Al-Minbar (www.alminbar.net).
38 Etgar Lefkovits, “Expert: ‘Christian groups in PA to disappear,’” Jerusalem Post, December 4, 2007.
39 Amnesty International Report 2007: Egypt. http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Egypt.
40 “Sectarian tensions flare in Egypt,” BBC News, April 16, 2006.
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