655 Montgomery Street, 16th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94111
By: CHRISTOPHER C. DOLAN and SCOTT BONAGOFSKY, Attorneys at Law
For the Defendant Marion Zimmer Bradley: CAUDLE, WELCH, UMIPEG & BOVEE
1390 Willow Pass Road, Suite 200, Concord, CA 94520
By: M. HENRY WALKER, Attorney at Law For the Defendant Elisabeth Waters
HAIMS, JOHNSON, MacGOWAN & McINERNEY
490 Grand Avenue, Oakland, CA 94610
By: LAWRENCE A. BAKER, Attorney at Law
ALSO PRESENT: MARY MASON BELLE ROMERO
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
MR. DOLAN: This will be the first exhibit. (Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. DOLAN
MR. DOLAN Please state your full name for the record.
MZB: Marion Zimmer Bradley.
MR. DOLAN: Ms. Bradley, my name is Christopher Dolan. I’m an attorney who represents Kenneth Smith in this case, and Mary Mason currently in this case. I am here today to take your deposition. You understand that?
MZB: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: I am going to go through some of the rules of a deposition. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?
MZB: My lawyer went over it with me the other day.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to go over those rules just because I need to make sure that we’re all clear on them. But before I do so, do you know what day it is today?
MZB: I believe it is Monday.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you know what month it is?
MZB: I think it is—it’s either July or August. I do tend to lose track since the kids are out of school.
MR. DOLAN: I understand. Do you know where we are today, what the address of this place is?
MZB: I don’t think I know the street address, but it’s between Telegraph and Shattuck on Russell.
MR. DOLAN: And what are your children’s names?
MZB: My oldest son’s name is David Bradley. My second son is named Patrick Russell Breen. And my third, youngest daughter’s name is Laura Evelyn Dorothy Breen.
MR. DOLAN: And what was your maiden name?
MZB: Marion Eleanor Zimmer.
MR. DOLAN: The rules of the deposition are as follows: The first rule of a deposition is that everything we do here is orally, so therefore the court reporter must have oral statements made by all the people in attendance today.
MZB: In other words, I say yes instead of nodding.
MR. DOLAN: Please.
MZB: Thank you.
MR. DOLAN: Instead of using movements or hand gestures or anything we may do in normal conversation, we need full and complete English words. “Uh-huh” and “huh-uh” don’t translate well.
MZB: I say “yes” or “no” or “maybe,” “I don’t know.”
MR. DOLAN: Thank you. The other rule of a deposition is we need to let one person finish talking before the other one begins because the court reporter can only take the writing of one person at a time. So if you will wait until I finish speaking before you begin speaking, I will afford you the same courtesy.
MZB: I’ve been a school teacher. I know that. I always try to get the kids to finish talking before—talking before the next one starts.
MR. DOLAN: Very good. The other thing is I don’t want you to guess or speculate as to anything, but I am entitled to your very best recollection.
MZB: If I don’t know the answer, I will just say “I don’t remember.”
MR. DOLAN: You have to let me finish speaking before you begin speaking. That’s the rule we just went over that school teachers follow. Okay?
MZB: Yes; I’ll try.
MR. DOLAN: So I don’t want you to guess or speculate, but I am entitled to an estimate or an approximation. So if you can’t remember something exactly, I am entitled to your best estimate, however small it may be, your recollection, so long as it’s not a guess. The difference between the two can be summarized as follows: We’re sitting at a table. I may ask you the length of this table, and although you have not measured it, you might be able to estimate it.
MZB: I would say it’s about eight feet.
MR. DOLAN: If I were to ask you the length of the conference room table in my office, that would be a guess because you have not been there.
MZB: I would just say I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Very good.
MZB: Thank you very much.
MR. DOLAN: If you do not understand a question that I ask of you, I’ll ask that you please have me rephrase it because I’m not here to trick you today. I want to make sure that you completely understand before you answer. All right?
MZB: Thank you. Yes, I understand.
MR. DOLAN: Are you under the influence of any medications today?
MZB: Well, I have taken insulin, which I am steadily on for diabetes; and I am steadily under the influence of the antidepressant Amipromene, which I take one every night.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And are you under the influence of any other medication within the last 24 hours?
MZB: None whatsoever.
MR. DOLAN: Are either–
MZB: Except that I’m wearing a patch of….
MR. DOLAN: Nitroglycerin?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do any of the medications that you have just described for me impair your ability to recall events?
MZB: I don’t believe so.
MR. DOLAN: At the end of your deposition, when it concludes, you will have the opportunity to review and read this deposition and make any changes that you feel are appropriate or necessary.
MZB: Thank you.
MR. DOLAN: I must caution you, however, that if you make substantive changes to your deposition, I have the right to comment to the jury that you have changed or altered your testimony. So we’d like to get your best testimony today.
MZB: I’ll try.
MR. DOLAN: In that regard, if you think, geez, I need to change something as we sit here, please let us know so we can make those changes now. Okay?
MZB: In other words, have my second thoughts not a month or a week from now.
MR. DOLAN: You’re entitled to have them whenever you have them. I’m just letting you know there will be repercussions.
MZB: It’s most convenient to have them right now.
MR. DOLAN: Please.
MZB: All right. I’ll do my best.
MR. DOLAN: You’re entitled to take a break anytime you need to. We have a very limited time because we’re doing this in limited amounts of time because of your medical condition, so I would request if you need a break, let us know. We’re not here to inconvenience you or harm you in any way. Okay?
MZB: Thank you.
MR. DOLAN: However, I must caution you that if there is a question pending, meaning you’ve got a question asked and not answered, and you request a break before answering it, I may place on the record that you are breaking on a pending question, and I may draw an inference at the time of trial that you have been coached on your answer by your lawyer during that break. You are entitled to still do so, I’m just merely advising you beforehand there may be re–
MZB: In other words, it’s okay to do it, but you have to know about it.
MR. DOLAN: That’s fine. Or if you do ask for a break after I’ve asked a question and you have not given an answer, I may ask a jury to draw an inference that you were coached during the break. Okay?
MZB: Uh-huh.
MR. DOLAN: Can you identify the woman to my right (indicating)?
MZB: No. I don’t know her at all.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever seen her before?
MZB: Not to my knowledge or belief.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any idea or recollection who she is?
MZB: No; I’m afraid not.
MR. DOLAN: Let the record reflect I pointed to Mary Mason.
MR. DOLAN: Are you currently residing with Elisa
beth Waters at this residence?
MZB: Yes, I am. No, not at this one. At the one over an Rose or whatever that street it is. Ashby and Grove. No Prince and Fulton.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have a residence on Prince Street?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know the address of that residence?
MZB: 2221.
MR. DOLAN: How long have you been a resident in the home where we are now?
MZB: Not at all. I have just bought the place,
8 and I believe we are not going to be able to keep it.
MR. DOLAN: When did you purchase this place?
MZB: Within the last month.
MR. DOLAN: So you’re not living here at all?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Where are you living?
MZB: Over in the house at Ashby—Prince and Fulton.
MR. DOLAN: Prince and Fulton?
MZB: Yes; where I lived for the last 30 years.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know why we’re having your deposition here today?
MZB: I believe it is because it was more convenient to come over here, but I’m not really certain.
MR. DOLAN: If at any time during this deposition you feel you’re becoming unable to answer questions clearly because of anything medical or psychological, we have to ask that you let us know that so that we can try to make sure we’re getting testimony that could be credible in court.
MZB: Will do so.
MR. DOLAN: Do you understand that although we’re in your living room of this vacant house today that this particular deposition has the same force and effect as if it were being taken in front of a judge and jury?
MZB: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: And you have sworn to tell the truth under penalty of perjury?
MZB: Yes, I have.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to be asking you some very uncomfortable questions today, and I apologize for doing that in advance. This is an uncomfortable case.
MZB: Well, this is the law.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. I just want you to know that there is nothing personal in my questions to you today. And if they cause you discomfort, I apologize, but it is my job on behalf of my client to do the hard job of asking these questions.
MZB: Thank you.
MR. DOLAN: When did you first become aware that your husband had been sexually involved with boys under the age of 18 years old?
MZB: I have–
MR. WALKER: Objection. That lacks foundation.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MZB: I was about to say that I had read some things that he had written on the subject, but unfortunately, I believed from the very beginning that it was a sort of an intellectual position, a sort of a feeling that it was something that was talked about in Greek literature and was sort of a testing position.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know that he had a relationship with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: I became aware of it, yes.
MR. DOLAN: When did you become aware of it?
MZB: About that time.
MR. DOLAN: What time?
MZB: Shortly after we were married. At that time I treated [Glenn Frendel] like one of my own children. He and my son David used to go swimming together and such.
MR. DOLAN: And to your knowledge, how old was [Glenn Frendel] when your husband was having a sexual relationship with him?
MZB: I think he was–
MR. WALKER: Objection. That lacks foundation. She never testified she was aware they had a sexual relationship.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MZB: I think he was about 14 or possibly 15. I’m not certain.
MR. DOLAN: Were you aware that your husband had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel] when he was below the age of 18?
MZB: Yes, I was.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know that about the time you were married to your husband?
MZB: Shortly afterward. It was quite shocking to me.
MR. DOLAN: How did you find that out?
MZB: I believe he mentioned it.
MR. DOLAN: Who mentioned it?
MZB: Walter.
MR. DOLAN: And what did he tell you?
MZB: Well, he told me that he and [Glenn Frendel] were sleeping together. And I said that I had believed that was an intellectual position. He told me it was not. I was very upset.
MR. DOLAN: So back in the 1960s you knew that it was not just an intellectual position for Walter; correct?
MZB: I knew that intellectually. I didn’t have any physical awareness of it.
MR. DOLAN: Didn’t Walter tell you that he was sleeping with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: He did. But you know how it is when you’re told something, and everything people say needs people to say it and one to hear it. At that time I don’t think I was emotionally or intellectually capable of hearing it.
MR. DOLAN: But you do recall hearing it?
MZB: Yes, I do recall hearing it.
MR. DOLAN: What else did Walter tell you on the subject of his relationship with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: I know that he gave him a bicycle.
MR. DOLAN: When did he give him the bicycle?
MZB: It was before I had come to live with him.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where [Glenn Frendel] lives now?
MZB: I have not seen or heard of [Glenn Frendel] since he was—since about three years after we were married. I presume he is still alive somewhere, but, that is, I have not heard anything to the contrary.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter ever discuss with you at length the various sexual activities that he would undertake with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter ever tell you that he thought it was a mutually desired situation between [Glenn Frendel] and himself?
MZB: I had read that in his book.
MR. DOLAN: Which book?
MZB: He wrote a book called “Greek Love” under the name of John Eglington.
MR. DOLAN: And you reviewed some of the manuscripts of that book before it was published?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: And did you contribute by doing proofreading?
MZB: I did proofreading, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you do some editorial work on that book?
MZB: I attempted to, but I found out afterward that everything I had done had been thrown out by the publisher, Robert Bashno (phonetic).
MR. DOLAN: But you did attempt to make some editorial changes to that book as it was being written?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: And at that time you were also aware that he had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to [Glenn Frendel]’s mother about–
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: You have to let me finish.
MZB: Sorry.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to [Glenn Frendel]’s mother about the sexual relationship between Walter and [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to the police about a sexual relationship between Walter and [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: I don’t remember. I know that I talked to a lawyer Walter had at the time.
MR. DOLAN: And who was that lawyer?
MZB: I don’t remember her name. She was a lady.
MR. DOLAN: And what did you and the lawyer talk about?
MZB: About his book.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me the context of your conversation, please?
MZB: Largely that I had heard that [mother of Glenn Frendel] had said that she had nothing to complain about in [Glenn Frendel]’s relationship with Walter. And I thought that, well, because [Glenn Frendel] would come—he had been accused of stealing milk out of refrigerators, and he would come to dinner with us, and he obviously hadn’t eaten for a long time.
MR. DOLAN: How did you hear that [mother of Glenn Frendel] had no complaints about the sexual relationship between your husband and her minor child?
MZB: She told me.
MR. DOLAN: So you did speak with her about this?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And when did you speak with her about this?
MZB: It was, as I say, shortly after we were married.
MR. DOLAN: And what was the nature of the conversation with [mother of Glenn Frendel] regarding your husband’s sexual interactions with her son?
MZB: I don’t remember that we spent any time on it. Mostly she was telling me that I was not a good writer, that I was a commercial hack, and that she was a great and artistic poet. I told her that at least I could feed my kids on what I did, and that if she had kids to feed, she’d probably do it too or—that is, write commercially.
MR. DOLAN: What about the subject matter between the sex of your husband and her son did you discuss that led you to believe that she had no complaint about this sexual relationship?
MZB: I think what she said almost exactly was “I find nothing to complain about,” but I can’t remember exactly. That was, I think, about 25 or 30 years ago.
MR. DOLAN: Was this sex occurring ever in your home?
MZB: Not that I—No, not to my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Was [Glenn Frendel] ever spending the night at your home?
MZB: Yes; but he slept with my older son.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever hear a report from Moira [Glenn Frendel] was found in Walter’s bed?
(My mother and Mr. Dolan have the names garbled. Glenn was there before I was conceived. I complained about Gregg Howell in 1979 and afterwards.)
MZB: No, I didn’t. I don’t think Moira knew [Glenn Frendel] from Adams or Fox.
MR. WALKER: I would like to remind you here of an agreement we had.
MR. DOLAN: I know about it. I’m not going there.
MR. WALKER: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to be very respectful of that. I’m going to be very respectful of her.
MR. WALKER: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to [Glenn Frendel] about the sexual relationship between [Glenn Frendel] and Walter?
MZB: Not to my memory, no.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever report this sexual relationship between your husband and a minor child to the police?
MZB: Not to my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me, were you aware that it was illegal for your husband to be having sex with a minor child?
MZB: No, I was not. I believed at that time—I know you told me not to volunteer anything. But I did seriously believe at that time that a teenage boy was old enough to make his own judgments in this matter. They let a girl get married when she’s 12, and I thought that a boy of 14 or 15 would certainly be old enough.
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