MZB: I don’t think so.
MR. DOLAN: Can you deny that as you sit here today?
MZB: I don’t remember doing so.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. But you can’t deny it specifically never happening?
MZB: Correct.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MZB: No, I don’t remember any such thing.
MR. DOLAN: All right. If your daughter testified under oath that you told her that your husband preferred boys between the ages of 9 and 10, would you be able to deny that conversation?
MZB: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
MR. WALKER: And Counsel, we’ve already talked about this.
MR. DOLAN: We talked about—we can step outside if you want.
MR. WALKER: Let’s step outside.
MR. DOLAN: Pardon us. (Mr. Dolan, Mr. Bonagofsky, Mr. Walker and Mr. Baker exit and return.)
MR. DOLAN: If your daughter were to testify that you had spoken to her and told her that Walter preferred sex with boys between the ages of 9 and 10, would you be able to deny that conversation ever taking place?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. Speculation.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in the objection.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MZB: I would say that I deny it absolutely.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. How many times did [Barry Austin] stay over at your house?
MR. WALKER: I think that lacks foundation. I don’t think she testified that he stayed over.
MR. BAKER: Join.
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did [Barry Austin] stay over at your house?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: So you don’t know either way?
MZB: (Shakes head.)
MR. DOLAN: Is that a “Yes”?
MZB: I would say that I do not know.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Whose [Johnny Doe 2]? (Johnny Doe 2 is either Eric Worth or Michael Vaughn.)
MZB: Oh, he’s some—he’s a neighbor up the street.
MR. DOLAN: Does he still live up the street?
MZB: That was many years ago, but I think probably he does.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you know his mother’s name?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where up the street they lived from you?
MZB: No; just somewhere up the street.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge, was there ever any accusation that Walter was having a sexual relationship with [Johnny Doe 2]?
MZB: I never heard it if there was.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever spoken to any of the parents of any minor children, informed them that Walter would never harm them?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever told any of the parents of minor children that Walter was not a pedophile?
MZB: I don’t remember the subject has ever come up.
MR. DOLAN: So you don’t remember either way; correct?
MZB: Uh-huh, I don’t remember either way.
MR. DOLAN: How old was [Cyndi Beckett] when you began having a sexual relationship with her?
(I suspect Cyndi Beckett was Cyndi June, formerly Cyndi N’ha June)
MR. WALKER: Objection. Argumentative and lacks foundation.
MR. DOLAN: I’ll rephrase.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever have a sexual relationship with [Cyndi Beckett]?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever participate in an orgy with [Cyndi Beckett]?
MZB: Depending on what you call….
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever participate in an orgy with Elisabeth Waters, [Cyndi Beckett] and Philip Wang?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was she ever present during a sexual act that you were involved in with other people?
MZB: She might have been.
MR. DOLAN: Elisabeth Waters has testified to being involved in an orgy with you and [Cyndi Beckett]. Do you deny that ever took place?
MZB: I neither deny nor affirm it. I simply don’t remember any such event.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever have sexual relations with [Cyndi Beckett]—
MR. WALKER: Objection. That’s been asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN:—of any kind.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MZB: Not that I can remember.
I was riding once in a car with her, and she kept putting her hand on my knee. And I shoved her hand off my knee, and we hit the curb. We hit the curb and blew a tire.
MR. DOLAN: Did [Cyndi Beckett] come to live with you?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: How old was she when she came to live with you?
MZB: I think she was 18 or 19.
(No, she was 16.)
MR. DOLAN: How old was Elisabeth Waters when she came to live with you?
MZB: 28.
(No, she was 26.)
MR. WALKER: Counsel, were you asking when [Cyndi Beckett] came or when Elisabeth Waters came?
MR. DOLAN: When Elisabeth Waters came and lived with you, how old was she?
MZB: 28.
MR. DOLAN: Is she your cousin?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And what is she, your first, second cousin, what?
MZB: Ninth. A friend of ours has a hobby doing genealogy, and we looked it up and found out that we were cousins in the ninth degree, that we had a common ancestor on the Mayflower.
MR. DOLAN: Other than—well, strike that. Did [Glenn Frendel] ever live with you?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did he ever stay over at the house when you were there with Walter?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did [Barry Austin] ever live with you?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever have him stay over?
MZB: Wait. Excuse me. Strike that. Yes, he did. He was downstairs in a room between—that was one reason that we made him leave was because we said he had to go to school and he had to respect the girls’ privacy. We had a young friend living with us then named [Jane Doe 1], and he was always popping into the girls’ room when they were dressing.
(Jane Doe 1 was Rohana? Heather? Elizabeth Rousseau??)
MR. DOLAN: Is that [Jane Doe 1] ?
MZB: No. That’s a girl called [Jane Doe 1]. She was in my daughter’s second grade with her, and they were in dancing class together.
MR. DOLAN: And she lived with you for a time period?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Other than [Barry Austin] living with you for a time period, did any other minor children—young boys live with you?
MZB: Let me think. Not that I can remember.
MR. DOLAN: Whose idea was it to adopt [Barry Austin]?
MZB: As I remember, Walter and I were talking it over together that he had become like a son in our household and that why shouldn’t we try it.
MR. DOLAN: Did any members of the community oppose this proposed adoption?
MZB: I don’t remember them opposing it.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if there were any background investigations done by the Alameda County Youth Authority of you or your husband regarding this?
MZB: I don’t think so.
MR. DOLAN: Was Elisabeth Waters living at the house at the time [Barry Austin] was going to be adopted?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know of Walter’s pedophilic ways?
MR. WALKER: Lacks foundation.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever know about Walter’s pedophilic ways?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation. Misstates her previous testimony.
MR. DOLAN: Did Elisabeth Waters ever come to you and raise any questions about Walter’s behavior with young children?
MZB: Not until this thing came up with whoever it was.
MR. DOLAN: With who?
MZB: I’m trying to remember. Some—they’ve alleged some kid I wouldn’t know from Adam.
MZB: I think that may be the one.
MR. DOLAN: Sean Sullivan?
MZB: I don’t know. As I said, I have no memory of any of it.
MR. DOLAN: Has anyone told you that you have memory problems with certain areas of your memory?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And who told you that?
MZB: My doctor.
MR. DOLAN: Which doctor?
MZB: My heart specialist. I can’t remember his name at the moment.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who Ian Studebaker is?
MZB: He’s my nephew.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge, did Ian Studebaker ever complain that Walter had–
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did Tracy Blackstone ever complain about the fact that Walter had inappropriately touched Ian?
MZB: Not to me.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she complained about it to anyone else?
MZB: I have no idea.
MR. DOLAN: Did Tracy state that Ian couldn’t come over to the house unless you or Elisabeth were there?
MZB: I don’t know. She made that statement about her daughter Fiona.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. She told you she didn’t want Fiona coming over to your home unless you or Elisabeth were there?
MZB: That’s what she said.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask her why?
MZB: No. I thought Tracy was just—well, Tracy’s a funny person.
MR. DOLAN: What did Tracy say to you?
MZB: As far as I know, she just said—Tracy said Fiona couldn’t come over here unless Elisabeth or I were there. And I thought it was simply because we were all coming in and out. There were quite a lot of people around.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge, did Walter ever have underage boys, meaning boys under the age of 18, in the hot tub at your house at 2221 Prince Street?
MZB: Not to my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Did–
MZB: David was there sometimes.
MR. DOLAN: Did Elisabeth Waters ever discuss with you any concerns that she had that Walter might have been molesting [Sterling Orser]?
(Sterling Orser might have been Sterling?)
MZB: No. I thought [Sterling Orser] was Moira’s boyfriend.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever insist to Elisabeth Waters that Walter was incapable of molesting [Sterling Orser]?
MZB: I can’t remember, but it doesn’t sound like the sort of thing I would say.
MR. DOLAN: Elisabeth Waters in her 10-8-89 diary, which was given to the police, indicates the following: Quote, “And I feel like a total idiot for not having said anything back when I thought Walter was molesting [Sterling Orser] ten years ago. I guess it was just another case of,” quote, “‘Don’t trust your own perceptions when the adults are telling you you’re wrong.’ Marion insisted that Walter was incapable of it, and she was 22 years older than I and married, while I was very ignorant about sex.” Does that refresh your recollection at all as to whether you had a conversation with Elisabeth Waters about the molestation of–
MZB: If she says so, it probably happened.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you have any—Does that refresh your recollection about that conversation?
MZB: No. I don’t remember the conversation at all.
MR. DOLAN: Having had that read to you, do you recall telling Elisabeth that, that Walter would be incapable of molesting [Sterling Orser]?
MZB: No, I don’t.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Walter was incapable of giving oral sex to minor boys?
MZB: I have no idea. I know nothing at all about oral sex. I broke up both my own marriages over it.
MR. DOLAN: What was that last part?
MZB: I said I broke up both my own marriages over it.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to [Sterling Orser]’s parents about any of this?
MZB: I don’t think so.
MR. WALKER: Any of what, Counsel?
MR. DOLAN: Any of these issues regarding pedophilia.
MZB: No. I never met his father, and I knew his mother only as part of SCA.
MR. DOLAN: The Society for Creative Anachronism?
MZB: That’s right.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what the syntax dictionary?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who had it last?
MZB: I haven’t any idea.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see a letter from Dr. Morin about [Sterling Orser]?
MZB: Who’s Dr. Morin?
MR. DOLAN: Dr. Morin was one of Walter’s psychologists.
MZB: I can’t remember any such letter. I don’t believe I ever knew him. As far as I know, I never met the man.
MR. DOLAN: Who’s [Gregg Howell]?
MZB: The name doesn’t ring a bell.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to read to you from the 10-9-89 entry of Elisabeth Waters. “Marion always said she’d divorce Walter if he did this again. She seems to think that he molested both [Glenn Frendel] and [Gregg Howell], but she was rather startled when I told her about the letter to Dr. Morin about [Sterling Orser]. She said that she thought Walter thought of [Sterling Orser] as a son.” Let me ask you a few questions about that statement. Does that refresh your recollection about a letter from Dr. Morin?
MZB: Yes, it does.
MR. DOLAN: Can you now tell me what you recall?
MZB: Yes. I can remember discussing the fact that he thought of him as a son because Moira and Patrick both thought of [Sterling Orser] as a brother.
MR. DOLAN: Did you talk to Walter about any sexual activity between himself and [Sterling Orser]?
MZB: It never occurred to me.
MR. DOLAN: It didn’t occur to you to talk about it?
MZB: No. I wouldn’t even have thought about it.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall the letter from Dr. Morin now?
MZB: I never saw any such letters.
MR. DOLAN: Did Elisabeth ever tell you about a letter to Dr. Morin about [Sterling Orser] that Walter had written?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell Elisabeth that you thought Walter had molested both [Glenn Frendel] and [Gregg Howell]?
MZB: I can’t remember. I don’t believe I ever discussed it with Elisabeth, but I might have in passing.
MR. DOLAN: If Elisabeth states that you discussed it with her, do you deny having those discussions?
MZB: No, I wouldn’t deny it. But I think she might have written in her diary and forgotten to read it to me or something. Elisabeth does not have the greatest memory in the world either.
MR. DOLAN: I’ve noticed. Do you have any recollection of anybody named [Gregg Howell] ever being over at the house?
MZB: I think Moira had a boyfriend of that name.
(No, I never did. Gregg Howell was involved with my father, never with me.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding as to whether [Gregg Howell] was ever molested by Walter Breen?
MZB: I wouldn’t have inquired into the matter or thought about it.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know that Walter had a lot of young boys over at the house?
MZB: No. I didn’t notice. I was never over at the goldfish bowl.
MR. DOLAN: How about when he was living with you?
MZB: Well, he had friends, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Young boys?
MZB: Occasionally.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter have an unusual number of young boyfriends for a man of his age?
MZB: I wouldn’t think so.
MR. DOLAN: Did you state that you would divorce Walter if he ever did this again?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: What did you mean by doing this again?
MZB: I meant if he ever molested a young boy again.
MR. DOLAN: And when you say “again,” who were the other young boys that you were talking about him molesting?
MZB: [Glenn Frendel] especially.
MR. DOLAN: Any others?
MZB: I can’t remember any offhand.
MR
. DOLAN: Are you aware of there being others?
MZB: There might have been. I would not have inquired into the matter.
MR. DOLAN: But to your knowledge, there might have been others besides [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: There might have been.
MR. DOLAN: But you didn’t specifically inquire into that?
MZB: At the time I did not. I can look back now and see there might have been, but I didn’t know at the time.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever warn any people in the general public about Walter’s tastes for young boys?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know that Walter was attending conventions where lots of young children were?
MZB: I think he had only been to coin conventions, and they sort of flocked around him like—like bees around honey. He was an expert on coins and an authority on the subject.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did Walter ever attend science-fiction conventions?
MZB: Once or twice.
MR. DOLAN: Did you pay for his attendance at those conventions?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: As somebody who was paying for his attendance at those conventions, did you ever warn people at the convention that Walter was a pedophile?
MZB: No.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join that.
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever warn any of the people at the convention about Walter’s tastes in young boys?
MZB: No.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation.
MZB: Never occurred to me.
MR. DOLAN: You were aware that Walter had a sexual appetite for young boys?
MZB: I suppose I was.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever warn people at the conventions of Walter’s sexual appetite for young boys?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
MR. DOLAN: Indeed you defended Walter’s expulsion from a convention on the basis of pedophilia, didn’t you?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: So in addition to never warning people, you actually defended his presence there, didn’t you?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. WALKER: Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MZB: I thought it was his own business.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MZB: And we did not discuss the subject, as far as I can remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did he attend these coin conferences as an employee of yours?
MZB: No, he did not. I had no interest in the coin business.
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