MR. DOLAN: Okay. If the 13 year old wasn’t six feet tall, did you have any opinion that child, let’s say a four-foot-tall 13 year old, it would be appropriate to proposition them for sex?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Vague. Lacks foundation. Compound.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join those objections.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer. You may answer it.
MZB: I did not speculate on the matter. If it came up, it came up very briefly and crossed my mind very quickly.
MR. DOLAN: How tall was [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever meet him?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Can you recall about how tall he was at the time that Walter Breen was having a sexual relationship with him?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
MR. WALKER: Lacks foundation.
MR. DOLAN: She testified at the last deposition that she knew he was having a sexual relationship with him. Foundation was laid in the first deposition.
MR. DOLAN: So how tall was [Glenn Frendel] at the—to your knowledge, at the time that Walter was having a sexual relationship with him?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
MR. WALKER: Same objection. And Chris, for the record, I don’t know how many months ago that deposition was. I don’t have it in front of me. She doesn’t have that knowledge in mind unless you ask her about it—unless you tell her about it.
MR. DOLAN: You still remember saying that Walter had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel]; right?
MZB: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: You just testified to that about 15 minutes ago?
MZB: Yes. [Glenn Frendel] was in our house a great deal.
MR. DOLAN: Due to the fact that he was in your house a great deal, how tall was he?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
MZB: I think he was about five foot, eight.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think he was big enough to ward off something he didn’t want too?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation. Vague, ambiguous. Lacks foundation.
MR. WALKER: Same objections. I’ll join.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MZB: I don’t believe I speculated on the matter.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So is size a determining issue in your mind as to whether or not a minor was capable of deciding whether or not they should be having sexual contact with an adult?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation. Foundation. Vague, ambiguous.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MZB: I didn’t do any speculating.
MR. DOLAN: I didn’t ask you if you speculated. You indicated earlier that you didn’t worry about your son David because he was six feet tall and could break Mr. Bashlow in half. Do you remember that?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So I’m asking you: Is your determination or understanding of when a child was able to make decisions regarding sex with an adult based on the size of that child and ability to physically defend themselves?
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MZB: That would be one consideration.
MR. DOLAN: What other considerations would there be?
MZB: The general maturity of the child in question, the fact whether the adult was the kind of person to be threatening. If the adult was generally a non-threatening person, I think my attitude would have been no harm in asking if he takes no for an answer.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And did you consider Walter to be non-threatening?
MZB: I certainly did.
MR. DOLAN: So, did you feel, then, there was no harm in Walter asking young children to have sex with him so long as he would take no for an answer?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And until—down to what age would that be okay?
MZB: I don’t believe I ever considered the matter much.
MR. DOLAN: So–
MZB: It would have come up and been dismissed from my mind in a matter of moments.
MR. DOLAN: As you sit here today, do you ever recall forming an opinion what would be a minimum age it would okay for your husband to proposition young boys?
MZB: I never stopped to think about it.
MR. DOLAN: You never gave it any thought?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. WALKER: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever come to a point where you kind of consciously pushed that out of your mind and made a decision not to think about Walter’s interaction with young boys?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Vague. Asked and answered. Speculation.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MZB: I can only say I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: And my question is a little different. Did you come to a point in time after you were aware of Walter’s interest in young boys that you sort of made a conscious decision not to think about that subject?
MR. BAKER: Same objections. Asked and answered as well.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MR. DOLAN: Pardon me?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have the question in mind?
MZB: You mean did I ever come to such a conclusion?
MR. DOLAN: I’ll ask it again. Did you ever come to a point in your life where knowing about your husband’s interest in young men, young boys, that you consciously made a decision that your sort of going to turn your head the other way and not think about it?
MR. BAKER: Same objection.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MZB: No, I did not come to such a decision consciously to turn away from it.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask your daughter Moira if Walter had ever propositioned her?
MZB: What?
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask your daughter Moira if Walter ever propositioned her?
MZB: I don’t think I understand. Are you trying to—seriously asking me if my husband propositioned my daughter? If you are seriously asking that question, I can only say no, she did not say anything about it to me until considerably later, after this was all over with.
MR. DOLAN: My question was somewhat different, which was: Did you ever ask your daughter whether Walter had ever propositioned her?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: But you did ask your son?
MZB: Yes; because—because I thought that Walter had a thing about young boys, which is not to be taken as being acceptable in this situation, and therefore I asked.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask Patrick whether Walter had ever propositioned Patrick?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Is there any reason why you felt differently about asking—well, strike that. Can you explain why you asked your son David that question but you didn’t ask your son Patrick that question?
MZB: Yes. Because when we met Walter David was nine. I think when we first met Walter David was nine or ten. When I married him he was 13, and I understood that Walter liked boys that age. Patrick was a baby. Walter saw him born. It never even crossed my mind.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Back in 1964 did you ask Walter whether he was still engaging in sexual acts with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you make a conscious decision not to ask him about his relationship with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: Yes; because [mother of Glenn Frendel]—the subject came up between us. And before you ask, I do not remember how it came up, but somehow or other it came up, and [mother of Glenn Frendel] had said that she had no complaint to make about Walter’s relationship with her son.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So at some point you had a discussion with [mother of Glenn Frendel] regarding the sexual relationship between Walter and her son; right?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And did you ask her how she felt about it?
MZB: I think she volunteered that. She said Walter’s influenc
e on her son had been a good one all around.
MR. DOLAN: Based upon what she had said to you, did you
form any opinion as to whether or not Walter’s relationship with [Glenn Frendel] was good for [Glenn Frendel]?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation. Vague.
MZB: I did not.
MR. WALKER: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask [Glenn Frendel] how he felt about the sexual relationship with Walter?
MZB: All I have to say on that point is that once [Glenn Frendel] was a big strong boy, and if he had any objections, he could have tied Walter into a bow knot.
MR. DOLAN: My question is: Did you ever ask [Glenn Frendel] about how he felt about the relationship with Walter?
MZB: No, I did not because, as I say, he was big enough to take care of himself.
MR. DOLAN: The discussion with [mother of Glenn Frendel], did it happen after you were married to Walter?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So you knew that the relationship with [Glenn Frendel] was still going on after your marriage to Walter?
MR. WALKER: Objection. That misstates her testimony.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you had the discussion with [mother of Glenn Frendel], did you understand that Walter and [Glenn Frendel] were still sexually involved?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Why were you having a discussion with [mother of Glenn Frendel] about the subject?
MZB: Oh, you know how women are, they talk about anything that comes up.
MR. DOLAN: So at the time that you were having a discussion with [mother of Glenn Frendel], did you have any understanding as to whether or not Walter and [Glenn Frendel] were still sexually involved?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. WALKER: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer it.
MZB: I’m sorry. Could you repeat the question?
MR. DOLAN: Sure. At the time that you had the conversation with [mother of Glenn Frendel], did you have any understanding as to whether or not Walter and [Glenn Frendel] were still sexually involved?
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MZB: I don’t believe I gave the matter any thought.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: So, did you ever tell [mother of Glenn Frendel]
what your opinion was on the relationship between Walter and her son?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever form the opinion that it was okay for Walter to have a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel] when [Glenn Frendel] was under the age of 18?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to marrying Walter, were you ever made aware that Walter had been arrested for lewd and lascivious acts?
MZB: No, I was not.
MR. DOLAN: Were you aware that in 1954 he had been arrested as a disturbing person for molesting a child under the boardwalk?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to show you a document that we’re going to mark as plaintiff’s next in order, which was produced by your counsel previously in this litigation. (Plaintiff’s Exhibit 4 was marked for identification.)
MZB: If you’ll pardon my saying so, this whole thing seems useless. The man is dead, and he’s up before a judge much more sterner than any judge in California courts.
MR. DOLAN: You’re still with us, that’s why we’re asking questions, because you’re a defendant in this litigation. Do you realize that you’re a defendant in a lawsuit?
MZB: No, I did not. It never occurred to me that anyone could think in those terms.
MR. DOLAN: As you sit here today, have you ever been informed that you’re defendant in litigation?
MZB: Well, you’re informing me now.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to me informing you, have you ever understood that you’re a defendant in a lawsuit?
MZB: No.
MR. WALKER: Objection. That calls for
attorney-client privileged information.
MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m just asking prior to my telling you, did you understand that you’re being sued because of the molestation of Ken Smith?
MR. WALKER: And only answer—Don’t answer anything that has to do with any discussions that you’ve had with any of your attorneys.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. If Elisabeth Waters told you you were being sued or your daughter told you you were being sued or you a saw document that led you to believe, with your name on it, that you were being sued, anything other than your lawyers actually sitting you down and saying, “Hey, you’re being sued.” Prior to sitting down in this room today, did you understand that you were a defendant in a lawsuit?
MZB: Not entirely.
MR. DOLAN: Do you understand now that you’re a defendant?
MZB: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: Can you answer my question, then? I’m asking you as a defendant in this lawsuit, were you aware of how that document came into your possession that was given to us by your counsel?
MZB: What is this?
MR. DOLAN: It’s a two-page document. Just please take a look at it, and I’ll ask you some questions once you’ve had an opportunity to review it.
MZB: I have no memory of ever having seen that.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you have any understanding of where your attorneys got this document they gave to us?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you keep a file of Walter’s on Walter in your possession at your home anywhere?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: At any point prior to today did you know that Walter Breen had been arrested for molesting children under the boardwalk in 1954 in Atlantic City?
MZB: No, I did not. I didn’t even know he had ever been in Atlantic City.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. In your last deposition you indicated that you had not seen [Glenn Frendel] since three years following the marriage with Walter Breen. Do you recall that testimony?
MZB: Yes, I do.
MR. DOLAN: During the three years that you did see [Glenn Frendel] during the marriage, was [Glenn Frendel] a frequent visitor at your home?
MZB: Yes, he was.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. To your knowledge, was he engaging in sexual activity with Walter during the three years that he was a visitor at your home?
MZB: I have no idea.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever so inquire knowing that Walter had previously had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever do anything to protect [Glenn Frendel] from any type of sexual contact with Walter Breen during the three years that he was a guest in your home following your marriage?
MZB: Oh, please. The idea of me protecting little [Glenn Frendel], good heavens.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Lacks foundation as well as argumentative.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in those objections.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever do anything—I’ll ask the question again because I would like an answer to the question. Did you ever do anything to protect [Glenn Frendel] from sexual contact with your husband during the three years following your marriage that you knew [Glenn Frendel] was around your home?
MZB: It never occurred to.
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
MR. WALKER: Same objections.
MR. DOLAN: It never occurred to you is your answer, that it was necessary?
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
MR. DOLAN: You never asked [Glenn Frendel] if it was okay with him; right?
MZB: I never asked [Glenn Frendel] because I knew perfectly well that if anything was wrong he could come to me. We were on terms that—I mean, he was in my house. He was getting milk from my refrigerator. He was eating at our table. If anything had been wrong, he would have come to me and said, Marion, there is something wrong. I’m quite sure he would have.
MR. DOLAN: So, as long as he didn’t come to you and say, Marion, there is something wrong, you felt no need to in
quire?
MZB: No.
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in that.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever—Did it ever bother you that your husband might be sleeping with this boy?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative. Lacks foundation.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
MZB: I never gave it any thought.
MR. DOLAN: Pardon?
MZB: I never gave it any thought. At that time I was newly married to my husband. I was pregnant, and I was very happy with him.
MR. WALKER: You can just let him ask the questions, and then you can give the answers, but you don’t have to volunteer anything.
MZB: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: During those three years did Walter and you have any other boys under the age of 18 in the home?
MZB: Not to my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever talk to Walter about whether or not he was still having sex with [Glenn Frendel] after your marriage?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. WALKER: Same objection.
MR. DOLAN: Go ahead.
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever say to Walter, I don’t want you to be having sex with anybody else now that we’re married?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join.
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever say anything to Walter about, you know, Walter you need to be careful. This might be illegal?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. WALKER: Same objection.
MZB: It never occurred to me.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss with Walter the legality or illegality of having sex with boys under the age of 18?
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss it with anybody prior to Ken Smith’s molestation being made known to you?
MZB: Not—Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Who Did you discuss that with?
MZB: With my daughter, Moira.
MR. DOLAN: When did you discuss it with Moira?
MZB: I think it was–
It was shortly before her marriage.
MR. DOLAN: Before what?
MZB: Before her marriage.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And what was the reason that you and Moira discussed that?
MZB: She made an allegation that her father had molested her.
MR. DOLAN: Was that before or after Ken Smith’s molestation was reported to the police?
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