MR. DOLAN: Who purchased the—that’s the goldfish bowl, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Who was it that was actually involved in the purchase of the goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, Marion’s CPA, Janette Burke, was the one whose idea it was, and she thought Marion should get into real estate, and Marion and I bought it jointly with Marion holding an 80-percent share and me holding a 20-percent share, and Camille LeGrand did the agreement for that.
MR. DOLAN: Was title ever in your name, do you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: You mean when it was bought, yes.
MR. DOLAN: The deed?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Is it your testimony that through some time in 1990 you remained a part owner of the property on Fulton Street?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: I am going to show you what we’ll marked now as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 2. (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: Which was a document, I believe you looked at, and I’m identifying the 1985 time frame when you purchased the property; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what this document was designed to accomplish, this quitclaim deed, why it was drafted?
ELISABETH WATERS: Because Marion and Walter, though both separated, were still legally married, and so Walter would not have a claim on the property.
MR. DOLAN: And that was when; when was that drafted?
ELISABETH WATERS: 1985.
MR. DOLAN: Does your name appear anywhere on that document?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding as to why your name was not included on the document if you were a part owner?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. But to your knowledge, you were a part owner on the property between 1985 and 1989, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And that was the time period wherein Walter Breen was residing at that property, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to show you a document that we are going to mark as Plaintiff’s 3, which is a rental agreement. (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)
MR. BURESH: Do you know what exhibit number that was?
MR. DOLAN: You don’t have them numbered. Oh, in what category it comes, yes. Exhibit No. 22.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever seen Plaintiff’s Exhibit 3 before?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, of course, that’s my signature on it.
MR. DOLAN: That was my next question. Did you indeed sign that document?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you rent the property that you were part owner of to Walter Breen in 1986?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware that he had authored the book Greek Love?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember.
MR. DOLAN: The time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of the allegation that had been made against him by Barry?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented this property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of the allegation that had been raised against Walter regarding his molestation of [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t believe so.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented this property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware that Walter Breen had been the subject of some controversy at the Worldcon regarding the molestation of a child?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of any allegations against him that he had molested his own children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware in any way about Walter Breen’s beliefs concerning sex between men and children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t really think so.
MR. DOLAN: I want you not to guess or speculate. To remember if you can give me your best testimony as to whether or not at that point in time you had any knowledge whatsoever regarding Walter Breen’s idealogies concerning sex between men and boys at the time that you rented him this property in 1986.
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, I think at this point I knew he had written Greek Love, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t know exactly what the book was about.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any understanding, even though you weren’t sure exactly what it was about, did you have any understanding as to whether or not the subject matter of that book involved relations between men and young boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: I understood it involved relations between men and young boys in ancient Greece.
MR. DOLAN: At that time, did you have any understanding as to why Walter had written that book?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At this point–
ELISABETH WATERS: For money, I suppose.
MR. BURESH: Don’t guess, please.
ELISABETH WATERS: Sorry.
MR. DOLAN: At that time, did you have any understanding whatsoever regarding Walter Breen’s idealogy on the age of consensual sex between people?
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m sorry, would you rephrase the question?
MR. DOLAN: At that time in 1986, did you have any understanding as to what Walter Breen’s beliefs were regarding the age of consensual sex between people?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I may have heard him say that he thought the age of consent should be lower than 18.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask him what age he thought it should be lowered to?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I told him I didn’t agree with him.
MR. DOLAN: So prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, you had heard him say that he believed that he thought the age should be lowered below 18?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I believe so.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any further discussions with him on that issue at any time prior to renting him the property in 1986?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t think I had a discussion with him on the issue. I think I heard him arguing with Marion about it.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Can you tell me what you can recall about his argument with Marion on the issue of the age of consent being lowered below the age of 18?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think he said something vaguely sympathetic about NAMBLA, and Marion said—N-a-m-b-l-a—and Marion said that you were always seeing dirty old men march for the right to have sex with young boys, but you certainly didn’t see young boys marching for the right to have sex with dirty old men. She was very cross with him.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall anything else that transpired during that conversation between Walter and Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, no, that’s sort of ended the conversation. Walter didn’t—doesn’t–
MR. BURESH: You have answered the question, I’m sorry.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know how the subject came up between the two of them?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever know Walter to be a member of NAMBLA?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever know Walter to be a member of the Mattachaine Society?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was Marion ever a member of NAMBLA?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best my knowledge, no.
MR. DOLAN: Was Marion ever a member of the Mattachaine Society?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever been a member or supporter NAMBLA?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever been a member or supporter of the Mattachaine Society?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know what the Mattachaine Society is, and, no.
MR. BURESH:
Let’s go off the record one second. (Discussion off the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Have you, at any time, come to
learn that Walter may have been a member of NAMBLA?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever heard of a journal called One?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever–
ELISABETH WATERS: Sorry. It was in the interrogatories, but prior to that, no.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever heard of a journal called Two?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever aware of Walter giving any interviews under the name of J.Z. Eglinton?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever read any interviews regarding Walter’s authoring of the book Greek Love?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I may have seen one once.
MR. DOLAN: I am going to show you a document that we are going to mark as Plaintiff’s next in order, which will be Plaintiff’s No. 4. (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to ask you—it’s a two-page exhibit. (Discussion off the record.)
MR. DOLAN: It is a document entitled An Interview with J.Z. Eglinton, E-g-l-i-n-t-o-n, by Martin Denison, D-e-n-i-s-o-n. I have highlighted two portions on it which were not highlighted at the time that it was originally generated, and I will be happy to make a photocopy without these for introduction in the record if counsel has any objection to it, but this is the only copy I currently have with me. I’m going to ask if you have ever seen that document before?
ELISABETH WATERS: It looks vaguely familiar. I may have.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall when you may have seen that document before?
ELISABETH WATERS: Probably in ’89 with all the rest of the stuff.
MR. DOLAN: This document—strike that. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley had read Greek Love?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think she read parts of it. I don’t know that she had read the whole thing.
MR. DOLAN: Were you aware that Greek Love was dedicated to Marion Zimmer Bradley?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not until I found a copy for Officer Harris.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware that book had been dedicated to her?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Marion Zimmer Bradley was an owner of the property rented to Walter; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley had read the book Greek Love prior to renting the property to Walter Breen?
ELISABETH WATERS: You’re asking do I know for sure?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know for sure, no.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, is it correct that you and Marion Zimmer Bradley had discussed the letter that had been sent to Dr. Morin?
ELISABETH WATERS: As I mentioned earlier, I had asked her about this in 1980, and by then we had long since forgotten about it.
MR. DOLAN: I move to strike as nonresponsive. The question was, prior to renting the property in 1986, had you and Marion discussed the letter sent to Dr. Morin?
MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the question as being asked and answered. She has all ready testified to the best of her knowledge of when that took place, and now you’re asking her to reference a point in time, and you’re asking her the same question over again. I suggest you go back in the record and look at her testimony then, but you’re now asking the same question over again.
MR. DOLAN: I’ll ask a different question.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you rented this property to Walter Breen, you knew that he had written a letter to Dr. Morin, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I had long since forgotten about it.
MR. DOLAN: But you had knowledge of that letter prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I had had knowledge of it, yes.
MR. DOLAN: And so had Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Assuming she was listening to me when I talked to her, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Well, she had actually responded to you then?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So can you draw a conclusion as to whether or not she was listening to you?
MR. BURESH: Object to the question. Instruct the witness not to answer. Go on to the next question.
MR. DOLAN: Well, do you have any facts at your disposal as to whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley was listening to you at the time that you told her about Dr. Morin’s letter?
MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer.
MR. BURESH: I instruct the witness not to.
MR. DOLAN: She’s now saying she doesn’t know whether or not–
MR. BURESH: She said she presumed that she did, and she has already testified what she said that was a response. You’re badgering the witness. Instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: So prior to renting this property to Walter Breen, do you have any facts at your disposal as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley knew that Walter had written the letter to Dr. Morin that we discussed earlier?
MR. BURESH: Objection. Instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: On what grounds?
MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: I’m asking a different question. I never asked this question of her. I did ask a different question that may identify the space in time, but I am entitled to ask a different question that relates it to another item. I have never asked her that question before, Mr. Buresh, and you’ll find it’s not in the record.
MR. BURESH: That’s fine. We can talk to the judge about it.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it, please. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Prior to renting this property from Walter Breen, did Marion Zimmer Bradley know that Barry had been found in Walter’s bed?
MR. BURESH: Objection, asked and answered. You already talked about the time frame of Marion Zimmer
Bradley’s knowledge of that, and you’re asking her the same question again. I instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Prior to the renting of the property by Marion Zimmer Bradley to Walter Breen, do you have any facts at your disposal to know that—strike that. Prior to Marion Zimmer Bradley renting this property to Walter Breen, do you have any facts at your disposal which would indicate to you that she had known Walter had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already testified to?
MR. DOLAN: No.
MR. BURESH: Then I object to the question as being asked and answered, and I instruct her not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley knew that Walter Breen had been accused of child molestation prior to renting this property to him in 1989?
MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
MR. DOLAN: Mark this. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: You’re not allowing me to ask her that whether prior to renting the property, which is the issue of this litigation, the question of whether the woman who rented it to him knew that the man that she was renting it to was accused of child molestation; you’re not allowing me to ask that.
MR. BURESH: This morning, in great detail, we went all through of these instances of what Marion might have known and what she knew, and you asked the witness many questions about the time frame of when this knowledge might have been obtained, and now you’re taking one point in time, this 1986, and you’re asking her the same series of que
stions all over again. That’s asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: It is relevant to an issue directly at issue in this litigation as to whether she rented her property to someone she knew had been accused of pedophilia.
MR. BURESH: I agree with that.
MR. DOLAN: And I’m entitled to ask that question in the way I want to ask it. It is a different question than on this date did she know this, on that date did she know that. I am asking in 1986, did she know this.
MR. BURESH: I respectfully disagree with your analysis, and we’ll have to let somebody else decide this issue.
MR. DOLAN: And what is the reason for your instructing her not to?
MR. BURESH: What I have already said, asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: That question has never been asked and the record will show that. Different questions may have been asked. Mr. Buresh, you know I’m entitled to ask different questions of her.
MR. BURESH: You asked the same question in a different form.
MR. DOLAN: I have never asked her in 1986.
MR. BURESH: You can do the same thing with 1987, 1988. You can put any date in the calendar and ask her the same questions all over again.
MR. DOLAN: This is a definitely important point in time.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to this point in time in 1986, did you know that Walter Breen had been accused of child molestation?
MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
MR. DOLAN: Mark it. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. BURESH: Why don’t we just have a continuing objection to this, and we’ll have to take this to the judge.
MR. DOLAN: Ultimately we are. I am just going to make sure that the record is very clear that you’re telling me that I have asked these questions before, and the judge can see how I’m being obstructed from inquiring on a very important point. That’s why I am making the record here. I understand that you’re not going to let her answer the question, but I am entitled to continue to try and make it different.
MR. BURESH: Well, what I would like you to do is categorize the question so that we can take it to the judge that you want to use this point in time to ask the same questions you were asking before about knowledge of his propensities.
MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m not going to categorize it that way. That’s the way you would like it categorized. My questions are on the record.
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