ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember the exact date. I will have to look at the—where is it? Here it is. October 20th, 1989.
MR. DOLAN: What page are you looking at?
MR. BURESH: They don’t have page numbers.
ELISABETH WATERS: It’s the third from the end of the police report.
MR. DOLAN: Thank you. Did you, at that time, give information to Officer Harris on 10/20/89?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you meet with Officer Harris?
ELISABETH WATERS: In her office at the police station.
MR. DOLAN: Did you give Officer Harris any documents at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, the journal that I wrote that is appended.
MR. DOLAN: Did you also give her forms from the Veterans Administration?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you understand that those forms indicated that Walter had a preference for young boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever seen those documents prior to the date that Ken Smith had been molested?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know when Ken Smith was molested.
MR. DOLAN: The date that the molestation of Ken Smith was reported, had you seen those documents prior to the date that Ken Smith had been reported as being molested?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my recollection, we got that packet of documents from the V.A. in April of ’89.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know why you got them in April of ’89?
ELISABETH WATERS: I was doing genealogical research.
MR. DOLAN: And when you got them in April of ’89, did you read them?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, some of them, yeah, I certainly started reading them.
MR. DOLAN: Did you, in April of ’89 when you read those, did you have any impression as to whether or not Walter Breen had expressed a preference for young men in those documents?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did anybody else read those documents between April of ’89 and the time that Kenny Smith’s molestation was reported?
MR. BURESH: To your knowledge.
ELISABETH WATERS: I think Moira might have.
MR. BURESH: I don’t want you to you guess or speculate.
ELISABETH WATERS: Sorry.
MR. BURESH: Please, I know you’re trying to be helpful.
MR. DOLAN: If you have any reason to believe, though, I’m entitled to know.
MR. BURESH: That’s right, of course.
MR. DOLAN: If you do think, if you’re not guessing or speculating.
ELISABETH WATERS: I think Moira did because I was doing the genealogy for her.
MR. DOLAN: You provided him with some documents at that time; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Who?
MR. DOLAN: Her, Officer Harris, some documents marked “Personal journal”?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know how many pages of documents you provided of your personal journal to Officer Harris?
MR. DOLAN: Do you have clean copies?
MR. BURESH: The answer is, no, I do not have. Well, wait a minute. Yeah, I think I do.
ELISABETH WATERS: Nine pages.
MR. DOLAN: Can we use that?
ELISABETH WATERS: And you can tell when I provided them to her because they’re signed and dated.
MR. DOLAN: Sure.
MR. BURESH: You have got what I sent you, the police report?
MR. DOLAN: I have them. I just–
MR. BURESH: Did you mark the other copy, the one I just sent you?
MR. DOLAN: Last night I may have marked these up, but I know I have a clean copy. It’s just a matter of–
MR. BURESH: I’m going to give you what I have. I’ve got a clean copy.
MR. DOLAN: I’ll make a copy and give it back to you.
MR. BURESH: How many pages, nine pages?
ELISABETH WATERS: Nine pages.
MR. BURESH: This one is marked, I mean, everything is clean except for the one page. Let me see if I can get you that one clean page.
ELISABETH WATERS: What page is it?
MR. BURESH: It would be—or here’s a clean set.
MR. DOLAN: Thanks. Mark this as Plaintiff’s next in order, which would be Plaintiff’s 7.
MS. DURRELL: You said there’s nine pages of it?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think so. (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: I’m going to show you a group Exhibit that’s been marked as Plaintiff’s No. 7. It’s a nine-page document. I would like you to look at the first page marked 10/5/89. Did you ever keep any personal journals of any type whatsoever prior to 10/5/89?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I told you that right before lunch, remember?
MR. DOLAN: I sometimes re-ask questions to make sure I’ve got a clear answer on this.
MS. DURRELL: That’s the document I don’t have, 10/5/89.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever keep any notes other than these personal journals regarding the events surrounding the alleged molestation of Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MS. DURRELL: This is 10/20/89. It’s here, sorry.
MR. DOLAN: Was there anyone else present with you when you spoke to the police on 10/20/89?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: I may have asked you this; did anyone edit these journal entries before you gave them to the police?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, can’t you see the typos still in them.
MR. DOLAN: About the fourth line down you write—the third line down. “I thought she was being hysterical—after all, God knows she has plenty of reasons to be angry with Walter.” What did you mean by “, God knows she has plenty of reasons to be angry with Walter”?
ELISABETH WATERS: Walter always preferred boys to girls. He always favored Patrick over Moira. He favored Moira’s boyfriends over Moira. I think she resented that he didn’t love her because she was a girl.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So prior to Kenny Smith being molested, did you have any understanding that Walter favored Moira’s boyfriends over Moira?
ELISABETH WATERS: Moira—Walter favored any boy over Moira. Walter didn’t like girls.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate in the next paragraph, “Sure, Walter was acting weird, but Walter always acts weird.” What did you mean by, “Walter was acting weird—”Sure, Walter was acting weird"?
ELISABETH WATERS: Walter generally acted paranoid, nervous, twitchy, suspicious, and he was acting that way.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I think that about covers it.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think that any of Walter’s interactions with children were geared in the sense that you have used the word “weird” here before—strike that. Did you think any of Walter interactions with young boys were “weird”?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate here, “And I certainly didn’t think Walter was stupid enough to molest a child—especially in front of Moira.” What did you mean by that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well–
MR. BURESH: Other than what it says. You want her to paraphrase it?
MR. DOLAN: Sure, what was she thinking when she wrote that?
MR. BURESH: If you recall.
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, aside from the idea that I certainly didn’t think Walter was that immoral, on top of that, I didn’t think he was that stupid. I mean, he must have known that Moira was going to object.
MR. DOLAN: Down in the later paragraph there you indicate, “I don’t think he wanted to hurt Kenny—I think he just thinks that laws against sex with children are designed to prevent children from having any fun.” When did you come to the understanding that—or the belief that Walter thinks that laws against sex with children are designed to prevent children from having any fun?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it was probably listening to one of his arguments with Marion ove
r NAMBLA. And by the way, hyphen, hyphen is a dash. It’s just the way it’s typed.
MR. DOLAN: When did these arguments over NAMBLA occur?
ELISABETH WATERS: Over the course of the ’80s.
MR. DOLAN: Tell me–
ELISABETH WATERS: I think there was one around ’87 because when I was looking for stuff for Officer Harris, I found a canceled check to NAMBLA that looked like it might have been for a book or something, so he had gotten a book from NAMBLA, and if Marion had seen it, that would have sparked an argument.
MR. DOLAN: Can you recall what transpired in the argument where you heard Walter saying to her something that led you to believe that the laws against having sex with children are designed to prevent children from having any fun?
ELISABETH WATERS: He just seemed to feel that the laws restricting children’s behavior were an infringement of children’s rights.
MR. DOLAN: When you say “children’s behavior,” are you talking about children’s sexual behavior?
ELISABETH WATERS: Children’s sexual behavior, children’s ability to take drugs, children’s ability to drive cars—I mean, Walter was a nut.
MR. DOLAN: And you knew this back in 1987 that he held these beliefs; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I believe so.
MR. DOLAN: Did you hear about—and Marion Zimmer Bradley heard Walter expressing these beliefs back in 1987 as well; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe so, yes.
MR. DOLAN: And, indeed, she debated these beliefs with him, according to your testimony, right?
ELISABETH WATERS: She strongly disagreed, yes.
MR. DOLAN: And did he strongly advocate those positions in those arguments with her?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, any time she strongly disagreed with him, he shut up and went away.
MR. DOLAN: After learning that he held these beliefs in 1987, did you do anything to remove him from the premises that you were renting to him?
MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: I have never asked this. This just came up now, Scott. I never even knew about this before.
MR. BURESH: Didn’t you ask her whether she ever took steps to remove him from the premises at any time?
MR. DOLAN: It’s a different question. You can’t block this line of questioning. If you do, I will move for the judge—you’re obstructing me. I am asking her a whole series of separate questions on something that just came up. If you’re going to say asked and answered, this is really questionable as to good faith. I’ll fight this one to the end.
MR. BURESH: If the witness has testified that she never took steps to remove him from the premises at any time, then it’s redundant to ask her that same question in light of any other event.
MR. DOLAN: I am allowed to ask questions the way I want to ask them, Scott, not the way you want them asked, or if I ask a question, it doesn’t forestall me from asking a different question later on. That is just cross-examination, and you know that, and I know that.
MR. BURESH: It’s badgering the witness by asking the same question over and over.
MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to answer?
MR. BURESH: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Please mark that. We are going to go to the mat on that one. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. BURESH: Let me ask the witness a question. Did you ever take steps at any time to remove Walter from the Fulton Street property?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. BURESH: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: Did it concern you that a man who advocated beliefs that laws against sex with children were designed to prevent them from having fun was living in your property?
ELISABETH WATERS: I felt there is—I felt, and still feel, that there is a difference between belief and behavior. I did not necessarily equate the one with the other, so, no, it did not concern me. Walter expressed a lot of crazy beliefs.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know, around that time in 1987, that Walter also believed children should be allowed to have drugs?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think you mean 1987.
MR. DOLAN: I did say 1987, didn’t I?
ELISABETH WATERS: I thought you said 1997. Yeah, I think I did.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did it concern you that a man who thought that children should be allowed to have drugs was living on your premises?
ELISABETH WATERS: I didn’t think making him move would change his views.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did you do anything to try to make him change his views?
ELISABETH WATERS: I told him I thought he was an idiot.
MR. DOLAN: But you continued to allow him to live on your premises, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Berkeley–
MR. BURESH: Objection, argumentative.
MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to answer? (Discussion off the record.)
ELISABETH WATERS: Berkeley has very strict eviction laws. You can’t evict someone just on their beliefs, or their personal beliefs, if he was not acting on them. I would actually have to prove that he was dealing drugs on the property in order to evict them.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether he was giving drugs to children at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether he was acting out his beliefs that children should not be denied the opportunity to have sex?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believed he was impotent. I assumed he was not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any investigation to find out whether he was acting out those beliefs on your property?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At any time prior to the molestation of Kenny Smith in 1989, did you undertake any investigation to find out whether Walter Breen was acting out his belief regarding sex with children on your property?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Could you please refer to your 10/8/89 entry. Before we go there, let me just ask you this: The nine pages that are included as Plaintiff’s 7, did you author those?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Are those true and correct copies of the documents that you authored and surrendered to the police?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Let’s turn to 10/8/89.
ELISABETH WATERS: Uh-hum.
MR. DOLAN: On 10/8/89, were you satisfied beyond any reasonable doubt that Walter was guilty of molesting Ken Smith?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And at that point you—did you take any steps to remove him from your premises?
MR. BURESH: Objection. Instruct the witness not to answer.
MR. DOLAN: On what basis?
MR. BURESH: Asked and answered, argumentative, badgering the witness.
MR. DOLAN: Please mark it. (Whereupon, the previous question was marked for the record.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you see here where you say, “If it can all be sorted out quietly, that’s fine with me– ”; what did you mean by, “If it can all be sorted out quietly”?
ELISABETH WATERS: If Walter can plead guilty without Kenny having to testify.
MR. DOLAN: You indicate here, “God knows, enough people have been hurt already.” Who were you referring to when you said enough people?
ELISABETH WATERS: Kenny, Moira, me, Mary Mason—Marion, who was going to be as soon as she found out—Patrick, and there’s probably others, but those are the ones that come to mind immediately.
MR. DOLAN: Did you tell Anodea, Philip and Phyllis not to leave their children with Walter unchaperoned?
ELISABETH WATERS: Anodea, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you tell them that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Who is Anodea?
ELISABETH WATERS: Anodea is a friend of mine, and she and Philip have a son together.
MR. DOLAN: What is Philip’s last name?
ELISABETH WATERS: Wayne.
MR. DOLAN: Is that the same Philip that was involved in the group experience we referenced earlier?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to 10/8/89, have you ever warned them about leaving their child alone with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not with Walter, but I did warn them about leaving their child alone with another child molester.
MR. DOLAN: Who was that?
ELISABETH WATERS: His name was Gary. I forgot his last name. I found out in 1985 that he was a convicted child molester, and Anodea had been dating him, so I talked to Anodea and Philip about it then.
MR. DOLAN: Was this fellow a friend of Walter’s?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, Walter didn’t know him, as far as I know.
MR. DOLAN: Who was Phyllis?
ELISABETH WATERS: Phyllis Nelson is a friend of the family. She and Debra and Richard Wheeler lived—at that time lived together, and they had two children, so basically I just called everybody in the immediate circle who had children.
MR. DOLAN: Did any of these people say that they thought Walter may have molested their children?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Where do Anodea and Philip live?
ELISABETH WATERS: Anodea lives in Sebastopol, I think, and Philip, I think, is in Fremont.
MR. DOLAN: What is Anodea’s last name now?
ELISABETH WATERS: Judith.
MR. DOLAN: And Philip lives where, I’m sorry?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it’s in Fremont.
MR. DOLAN: What was the name of their child?
ELISABETH WATERS: Alex.
MR. DOLAN: Where does Alex live?
ELISABETH WATERS: With Anodea.
MR. DOLAN: And who is Phyllis?
ELISABETH WATERS: Phyllis Nelson. I just told you.
MR. DOLAN: Where does she live?
ELISABETH WATERS: They were living together in a house in Mar
Vista.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where in Mar Vista?
ELISABETH WATERS: Walgrove Avenue. And I understand that she’s recently gotten a condominium and moved out, but I don’t know where.
MR. DOLAN: What was their child’s name?
ELISABETH WATERS: They have two daughters, Sarah and Rose.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where they live?
ELISABETH WATERS: Sarah, I believe, is at Reed College in Oregon, and Rose is still home with her mother.
MR. DOLAN: Did you think Walter was molesting Sterling 10 years prior to 10/8/89?
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