by Apatow, Judd
Judd: I haven’t worked there but I know the moment you’re talking about.
Louis: Everybody’s there. It’s like meeting the president. It’s, like, very important. And he says, “So you did twelve minutes in the monologue. How much do you want to do on-air?” I said, “I want to do all twelve.” And he goes, “You’re not doing twelve.” He goes, “It was good but there was a lot of air in it, a lot of stopping and starting. I know there are cuts in there.” My faced turned red. I was angry. I was like, “Well, I don’t know. I thought it was pretty good. And fuck you.” I was really mad. And then later this woman comes in and says, “Uh, we’re one minute under.” And so I go, “Then I’m doing twelve.” And Lorne turns to me and goes, “Calm down.” I was really insulted. He said, “I’ll give you seven and nobody’s ever done seven.” And I said, “What if it goes long? What if I go over and I end up doing ten or more?” And he goes, “Then we’ll know that you’re very undisciplined and that you’re unprofessional.” And everybody laughed. So I said, “I want to see the monologue from rehearsal.” And he goes, “Show it to him.” My point was to prove how great it was. And I watched it and I was like, God damn, it’s not that good. Tons of air. And a lot of stopping and starting. I had a whole fart thing. A whole thing about farting on a baby that fucking killed, and he was like, “You’re winning without it. I wouldn’t do it.” So I realized the farting on the babies was stupid and it’s going to ruin the monologue. So I got Michael Che, who writes for the show, and asked him to sit with me. It’s the most vulnerable thing you can do is ask a comedian to help you cut your material, but I was like, “What do you think?” And he was nervous, he was like, “I don’t know.” He didn’t want to make a wrong decision. But I cut it down. I cut four minutes out as we’re ticking off time to get on the air.
Judd: And you have to act and work the other sketches, too.
Louis: Yes, it was high pressure. Very high pressure.
Judd: How do you remember it all?
Louis: Well, because you fucking better know it. You fucking better know it. I mean, I had to switch the order. I had to change stuff. I just told myself, Don’t try to remember this. Make these decisions and they’ll be there for you when you hit the moment. I loved it. This kind of thing to me is the most worthwhile life experience. I’m standing at the door to SNL after all that shit, and Gina the stage manager is counting off and my hands are on the door, and I just started chuckling. I was like, This is fucked up. This is live television. This is fucked up. And I went out and it just—it was all there for me and I was able to sail. The audience was at the right place. They looked a little critical but I felt like, It’s going to be okay. I’m going to bring this material and you’re going to like it. Fuck, did that feel good.
Judd: And that was the day that you realized Lorne knows what he’s doing.
Louis: He knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s so smart, but he scared me. And I needed to go in scared.
Judd: You like being scared?
Louis: I remember when I was a kid, Billie Jean King was doing that Battle of the Sexes thing—I don’t remember if it was happening when I was a kid or if I saw a show about it. But I was so impressed with her. She reminded me of my mom and I just thought she was the coolest person and I hated Bobby Riggs because my mom was a single, working mother. They toured together and did these interviews together, and he was always going, like, women should just go back, put on a tight shirt, and make me a steak. He said this amazing shit and she’s just sitting there with a smile on her face. And they turned to her and they say, “How do you feel about all this?” And she says, “Well, all this does is put pressure on me. Everything he says just means that I have to beat him.” She gets this big smile on her face and says, “I love pressure.”
Judd: Wow.
Louis: And I never forgot it. I was like, fuck that. That was such an interesting notion—that pressure, give me, give me, give me, because all that’s going to do is make me better. Like, eating pressure. Having it be fuel. I like that. Whenever I realize, Uh-oh, this is fucked up, I don’t feel ready, this is going to look bad if this doesn’t go well, I get that physical feeling. I don’t like that feeling, but I like the whole arc of it. You need the whole arc for it to be good. When you win and you do well, it feels great.
Judd: Was that an historic moment for you, hosting SNL? Was that one of your dreams?
Louis: When I worked at Conan, SNL was right next door and I used to go through SNL to get to the commissary, just walk through the studio so that I could smell it. I loved the fucking smell of the place. I didn’t want to be a sketch performer or anything, but the idea of hosting it? I never thought that I would be that guy. I was very happy to get the shot, terrified to get the shot.
Judd: I can’t imagine how scary that is.
Louis: I was really scared.
Judd: Like, How am I going to learn how to talk off of these cue cards?
Louis: Yeah, everything. Everything. How am I going to do any of this? I thought, I’ve got to get a writer to help me. I’ve got to bring a guy in. Everybody does that. But then I was hanging out with Amy Poehler a lot and she said to me, “Don’t bring somebody in. Just give yourself to the process.” So I just showed up and said, “What do you guys want me to do?” And I let them lead me through it. But the second time I did it was the best because I had the benefit of experience and I was so excited to do it again and I knew a lot more about it and all the people were junior. There were all these young kids and I found myself teaching some of them, and that was a nice feeling. Anyway, it is fun to be part of old hallowed things.
Judd: How long do you think you can do your show for?
Louis: I don’t know. I feel like I have to take it year by year. This year was a totally different experience than last season. I didn’t do it like a job. I decided I don’t need to go and try to make movies or anything. This show was a good job. It’s a good thing to be doing creatively. I had this thing that I was going to make a movie. And I’d been saving it and I said, Fuck it. I’ll make an episode out of it. So I cut it into two pieces and I made it an episode and it’s a whole flashback thing.
Judd: There’s a type of storytelling, and movies are not hospitable to it. It’s a miracle when shows fall together and you feel like, Oh, this is the right idea for the right person and shit’s about to go down.
Louis: TV shows are about getting the right tuning. It’s like trying to crack a safe. Once you get it, it starts paying off like a slot machine creatively—like, I created a machine that makes paper cups, you know. I just sit there and stack them. And it keeps running as long as people want paper cups.
Judd: Whose voice is in your head that’s wise?
Louis: A collection of people. My mom is a big part of that for me. She’s got a calm and thoughtful approach to things and, yeah, it’s her, it’s me—I feel like I’ve invented a lot of that for myself. Sometimes it’s friends like Chris Rock, who is one of the smartest people I know. It’s different people who have said stuff to me and then things I’ve learned.
Judd: My mom was very manic and up and down—you know, super nice but also super screaming and crazy. You get that implanted in your head. Like, if you have the solid mom implanted, moments come up like SNL—like, Here we go, you’re walking out onstage. And that’s the voice that takes you out there.
Louis: That’s right. I mean, it’s funny. Chris Rock is a lot of those for me. I remember when I did Lucky Louie, I was really scared. That was my first series, my first real job. And right before I went out I thought, This might not go good. And I called him and said, “I have a feeling this might go badly,” and he said, “You’re damn right it might. It’s very likely to go badly and all those people are working hard and you better fucking step up. You better do something to not let that happen.” And I was like, Shit, that’s right. There’s a few people like that. Paul is another. Paul Kozlowski, this comedian that was in Boston when I was coming up. And I had a kind of doldr
ums moment once, on the steps of a comedy club, and I said, “This is really hard. This is hard. I hardly ever get on the stage and when I do the crowds suck.” And he said, “So get out, then. There’s too many comedians. Get the fuck out. Quit.”
Judd: “We don’t need you.”
Louis: “Quit.” I had a few moments like that. But once I had a kid, I remember thinking, you know, I want to show up for this, and I remember thinking that stuff of like not being able to sit alone with myself. That’s not a good thing about me. I wanted to change and this was a good reason to do it, and I remember sitting alone with my daughter a lot and breathing and going, Just cool it, you know, be here for her. She was a great target for my better intentions. I remember telling myself, keep being part of it and change as many diapers as I can and also try to get the kid away from my wife so I can have my own set of parenting skills. So I wasn’t just her assistant. I put a lot of thought into that. It was a big deal for me. Uh, I don’t know how we got here.
Judd: What are the things that you’re trying to say on the show about being a parent?
Louis: I always try to show that I don’t have any control as a parent, you know what I mean? I did this thing with the little one on the show and I’m telling her this thing about don’t look into your neighbor’s bowl unless it’s to check if they have enough. I try to teach my kids this kind of thing. The reason why we cut sandwiches in half is so you can offer somebody a piece of your sandwich. You don’t need the whole sandwich. Everybody in your line of sight, you offer it to them and if nobody wants it, then hey, you get a whole sandwich but you’re only supposed to eat half. I tell them these things.
Judd: Do they believe you?
Louis: Sometimes.
Judd: And you don’t know what sticks or how it sticks, because I’ll say something to my daughters and I’ll think they don’t care at all, and then a year later, in conversation somehow it comes up that they remembered that.
Louis: Yes, that’s right.
Judd: It’s interesting to me because I have two daughters. And it really does change your reality when you spend an enormous amount of time only with women and little girls. It’s a very sweet, intimate relationship. Like my daughter—I know you hate all the cellphone stuff, but she’ll text me all day during school and tell me, like, “I just cried during Spanish class because the teacher asked me a question and I didn’t know the answer and I cried and I’m in the bathroom right now.”
Louis: Isn’t that nice that she’s reaching out to you that way? I don’t hate the cellphone stuff, by the way. I think you have to—
Judd: No, I agree with everything you say about it. It’s a battle to figure out how to manage technology with kids.
Louis: Yeah, it is, but it will be a battle for them for their whole lives, too. I mean, when I’m at my best, I leave my phone around without looking at it and I only use my computers to write or edit or whatever. My favorite part of the year is when I’m editing my show because I can’t touch the Internet; I’m using my computer to edit. Because it’s a sickness. Like right now, because the show is on the air, I’m reading shit about it and about myself and I’m tweeting because I never tweet. I don’t partake in that back-and-forth thing, but when I do because I’m tweeting to promote and then I’m like, Did anybody respond, why didn’t anybody respond? And Oh, fuck that guy. Should I say something, fuck, maybe I’ll direct-message him. Fuck you. It’s a sickness. I can’t handle it. So the thought occurred to me: I need to help my daughter figure out how to do this. I think I’ve done a good thing already, which is that she’ll be the last one of her friends to get a smartphone. And because she’s watched all her friends change since getting them, and I’ve watched them change, too. I know all of these kids. I know the parents and I know the kids. I’ve known them since they were little. And I see these kids who suddenly are seized by this thing. When they come over—like, my daughter had a sleepover party recently and I made her friends check their phones at the door.
Judd: They start shaking.
Louis: They itch, they shake, they can’t listen to each other—it hurts them to not have their phones. And she’s observing this because she’s not one of them. It’s a big caution for her. So when she does get one, she’ll have a better shot than I have and that her friends have had.
Judd: What’s hard is that they are afraid to drop out of this mass communication. But like I’ve said to my daughter, “Maybe you should be known as the kid who is hard to reach.”
Louis: That’s right. That’s the coolest possible thing you can be. But it’s pollution. It’s pollution. You need time by yourself. I was watching Rocky with a friend of mine. And there’s all these scenes of him sitting on this dirty mattress, alone—the guy is so alone, it’s beautiful how alone he is. Nobody’s alone like that anymore. Nobody. You know, cops on the beat in New York are staring at their fucking phones. Airline pilots are on iPads. Fucking hell. It’s crazy.
Judd: When I’m working sometimes, I have this book of Cassavetes interviews at hand. He just has so many quotes about doing things differently—one of the quotes is something about, I don’t care if people like the movie, I just hope, in ten years, it’s still stuck in your craw somewhere. Like, they’re still thinking about it.
Louis: You want it to be compelling, that’s all. The likable thing is not really worth much. It’s a low-wattage bulb, you know. I remember when I did Pootie Tang, it was such a fucking disaster and John Goldwyn was the head of Paramount at the time. And he was so mad. He watched the cut and brought us in. Me and David Gale, who ran MTV Films, Sean Daniel, who had been the head of Universal who was now running the company [Alphaville, a production company on Pootie Tang]. All these people, and I was the director, and I remember they all walked in and I stood back a little and John Goldwyn was holding the door, and he went, “Come on.” He told me to come in and his voice was shaking, he was so upset.
Judd: Had he read it?
Louis: I don’t know. Somebody actually brought that up: Did you read the script? “Because,” the editor said, “we kept to the script pretty much. Did you approve this movie?” And David Gale said, “I think something’s lost on you. I think you’re not getting something.” “What am I not getting? What am I not getting about you taking four, by the way, million dollars of our money? This is an irresponsible, wasted effort.” He hated it so much. He said, “Why would Pootie Tang make that beautiful woman drink milk from a saucer on the floor, and yet he throws himself at this whore?” And I remember when he said that I was like, This is fucking great. This means I did something right because he’s so upset.
Judd: Oddly, those are the ones that people keep watching and talking about.
Louis: No, that’s right. And I think I’m able to do that on the show because the show doesn’t have an obligation to tell a whole story. Sometimes we tell two in one episode. I had an instinct that I should try to be as bold as I can about how I play with the format because I’ll chase away everybody who doesn’t like it and then I’ll get fans who do like it. If the net number is high enough, I’ll keep the job. And if I keep the job this way it’s a great fucking job. I never cared if I got canceled. That’s the only thing that makes me do this stuff well, is I was willing to let the job go any day.
Judd: I always heard that from Larry David. That was his big inspiration. He was willing to walk away from Seinfeld when they would give him bad notes.
Louis: You have to be willing to say, “Let’s not do this show. Let’s not do it.”
Judd: Do you notice a common theme when you look at the show, or is it too soon to tell? For a lot of people, when you see their body of work, you realize there are certain things that concern them. They make mirrors of their lives. Do you notice that for yourself?
Louis: I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a common theme. I guess I’m always trying to figure something out on the show.
Judd: Is it self-discovery?
Louis: I like to put myself into fucked-up
situations and make mistakes and deal with it. I like to do that over and over again on the show, and maybe I like to do that in my life also. I read in some places that the women on my show were all crazy. They didn’t say that for the first couple of seasons, but people started to go, “These women are all fucking nuts.” For me, it’s because that’s an interesting problem, that’s all. It’s an interesting story.
Judd: I’ve gotten in trouble for having strong women or angry women or dealing with those types of problems that people would say, Oh, you’re being a misogynist. Even Katherine Heigl said, “Oh, you’re making the women out to be shrews.”
Louis: Knocked Up is the best thing she ever did. The best thing she ever did. The fact that she was unhappy is amazing, but for a man, a woman is a problem. She’s a mystery and she’s a choice. The women in our lives are a list of choices that we’ve made and decisions that we’ve made. And it’s the same for them.
Judd: Are you a therapy person?
Louis: I used to go to therapy, but I can’t do it now because it’s been too long. It’s like not going to the gym for a long time. I don’t want to start all over again.
MARC MARON
(2010)
I’ve done a fair amount of interviews in my life, but the one that people mention to me the most is the one I did for Marc Maron’s WTF podcast. In addition to being an incredible comic, Marc is an insightful interviewer and empathizer and therapist of sorts, and we connected in a deep way about so many aspects of our journey. At one point, as I was talking about my pain as a kid and how some of those issues have persisted into adulthood, his eyes welled up with tears—and it made me extremely uncomfortable. I thought he was going to start crying right in front of me, so I changed the subject slightly, because I wasn’t sure I could bear to see him lose control. Looking back, I regret having done this. I probably should have kept going just to see what happened. I could have destroyed him. For those of you interested in hearing my story, this would be it.