by Ted Widmer
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: And …
RFK: Well, anyway, you might keep it in mind if something comes up.
JFK: You never see her, do you?
RFK: Well, I don’t, no. No … but she is just a bitter bitch.
JFK: Yeah. She’s around yelling all the time. Somebody I … Tell me, we hear a rumor that John McCone’s gonna quit some time, at a time when it suits him.
RFK: Ah, Marquis Childs.11
JFK: You hear that?
RFK: You know what Marquis Childs …
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: … told Ed Guthman?
JFK: Yeah? He told Ed Guthman what?
RFK: He said that they’re really pouring that stuff out of CIA against the administration.
JFK: CIA is?
RFK: Yeah. Did you see his article today?
JFK: Yeah. Well, that was obviously based on what John told him.
RFK: John McCone looked good in that thing.
JFK: Yeah, but I didn’t think he looked great. No matter how …
RFK: Well, that’s what Dave, he said, “I wrote that story in order to make sure that the record was clear on what they’re doing.”
JFK: What? That they’re putting it out?
RFK: Yeah. I tell you …
JFK: But, of course, he put it that he was only sending it into the …
RFK: Yeah, CIA.
JFK: … CIA. But he says that CIA is pouring it out?
RFK: Yeah. And I think he specified on behalf of John McCone.
JFK: And McCone was right?
RFK: Well, that John McCone, that they’re trying to make themselves look good.
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: And that’s what he said. “This is where it’s coming from,” he said.
JFK: Yeah. Yeah. He’s a real bastard, that John McCone.
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: Yeah. We got him. Do you have an …?
RFK: Well, he was useful at a time.
JFK: Yeah, but, boy, it’s really evaporated.... But he’s making such a … Of course, everybody’s on to him now. That’s the trouble. He’s stupid himself. Everybody’s saying he’s a horse’s ass. But you mean that fifteen hundred terrorists and guerrillas that are being trained over there isn’t quite the way it was. They’ve got fifteen hundred students, how many of them are being trained as terrorists and guerrillas, how many have been picked up is another good question. They don’t, never have anything very precise.
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: The …
RFK: Shall I give you another problem?
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: This TFX.12
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: Is somebody watching that? The beginning of that whole contract, is that what it is that …
JFK: Yeah. Yeah.
RFK: Well, because the newspapermen think that there’s something there now.
JFK: Not that we know. Who, what do they think is there?
RFK: Well they think it’s, that there’s …
JFK: What?
RFK: Something funny that went on, but I just think that somebody better …
JFK: Well, you know what went on? [laughs] Nobody wanted to go to Topeka, Kansas. [laughs] That’s all that went on. [laughs]
RFK: Yeah. But I want, think we ought to make sure somebody’s looking at it. Look at the hearings and everything.
JFK: Well, I don’t, you know I think it’s a .... your friend John McClellan.13
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: But, actually, nothing went on, so that’s why they’re never going to find anything. I know what went on. Nothing. Because of Topeka, Kansas. [laughs] That’s where that contract would have gone, you know, that was the alternate.
RFK: Yeah. Well, I remember the discussion.
JFK: Yeah. Well, that was the whole thing.
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: But, let’s see, there’s that and Doris and what was the other matter?
RFK: Oh, it’s just John McCone.
JFK: Yeah, well, I don’t know what we can do about old John.
RFK: Except the … I suppose if somebody could get the message to him that there …
JFK: I thought that you could say that, first that …
RFK: They’re saying …
JFK: … all the press are saying that they’re pouring out a lot of stuff to try to make, you know, the CIA or McCone look good at the expense of the administration, that there’s a lot of talk about it on the Hill and everything. I’d like to have John know about that. So maybe he’d then decide it wasn’t so wise.
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: You, you aren’t going to be seeing him, are you? Is he coming …
RFK: Yeah, I’m going to see him Thursday, Wednesday. He’s coming to the house for dinner.
JFK: Uh-huh. Well, he’s going up tomorrow to testify. Thought you …
RFK: He’s been …
JFK: … might give it to him Tuesday night.
RFK: … better, though, hasn’t he, on his testimony?
JFK: I guess he has, though there were … Well, that thing of … I don’t know where Marq Childs got that thing, do you know?
RFK: Yes.
JFK: Did he get it from McCone?
RFK: McCone. That’s what he implied to Ed Guthman.
JFK: Yeah, well, I mean that’s not, you know, giving the dates when he sent the messages and everything. Christ, he never sent the message to anybody else. [needle skips] Why didn’t he come back from his honeymoon?
RFK: Well, I know that …
JFK: Huh?
RFK: Well, you know, I understand …
JFK: [laughs] I think that’s the only thing that, I mean, he isn’t going to …
RFK: Yeah, I don’t think Marquis Childs was too impressed.
JFK: Yeah?
RFK: I mean, the way he talked, he just said that that’s where the stuff’s coming from and that they’re sticking it to you, the administration. So he just wanted to tell us …
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: … that that’s going on.
JFK: Well … Well, why don’t you tell John that Wednesday night.
RFK: OK.
JFK: Good.
CALL FROM ATTORNEY GENERAL ROBERT F. KENNEDY, DATE UNKNOWN
In this call, JFK and RFK complain about unfavorable press coverage from Henry R. Luce, the baron of the Time-Life empire. Luce had devoted generous publicity to JFK when he was a rising politician, but as this conversation indicates, the winds could shift course unpredictably. The conversation continues with some reflection on the construction of schools on military bases, and frustrations relating to cost, reception, and the often imperfect relationship between the Kennedy administration and the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement.
RFK: Oh, Jack?
JFK: Yeah. How’d you think Newsweek was to you?
RFK: Oh, well, I thought that it was all right. They didn’t say anything very new, did they?
JFK: No, but I thought it was fine. I thought it was good.
RFK: Did you?
JFK: Sure. If you read Time magazine … you read them yet?
RFK: Ye god, that’s me?
JFK: Yeah. I saw Harry Luce today.
RFK: Had you seen Time at the time you saw him?
JFK: Yup.
RFK: Did you say anything?
JFK: Oh, yeah. I gave it to him for forty-five minutes. He says, “Well, I’ve been out in Phoenix and it doesn’t seem that bad to me.” I said, “Well, listen, looks bad to me.”
RFK: I thought they were bastards.
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: They really went out of their way on that damn thing, didn’t they?
JFK: Yeah. Yeah. But isn’t that peculiar? You see, it shows that there’s, he’s really losing his grip. Here, he’s in to see me, to ask me to come up to that dinner, you know …
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: … and he’s coming in, the morning he comes in you’d think that at least he’d have given me a soft soap, that
would’ve been much more difficult.
RFK: Yeah. What’d you say to him?
JFK: Oh, I left it with him in the morning, sort of, let’s get a few good ones out of you. But then I decided, you know, and said I’ll let you know later if I can come, but I just thought I don’t want to leave it in doubt, ’cause you know, he will write a couple of good ones, and then I’d have to go, and I think, the Newsweek and Graham and everybody would think that was a, and in addition I think probably for me to be up there for Time, after what has obviously been—would we look like a …
RFK: Yeah. We wrote out the mistakes they made on the, just on the one thing, which was on the Cuban prisoners and, just incredible! I mean, how many, they just …
JFK: Yeah. Yeah.
RFK: … they just didn’t want to make an effort, do they?
JFK: No. It’s you know, it’s a real, I mean they’re just mean as hell up there. But I don’t think it registers on them, or something.
RFK: He doesn’t consider it, he doesn’t see …
JFK: I don’t think it registers on him. No, you know, they’re awfully fair during, they were good in the campaign, and that was because—[unclear]’s the real …
RFK: Yeah.
JFK: He’s the son of a bitch up there. And he, you see, he was out in the campaign, and they were pretty good, so I mean I don’t think Luce is hostile, I think he just, you know, he hasn’t got any sensitivity, he doesn’t probably like the thing much anyway, but he hasn’t got any sensitivity, he couldn’t, he didn’t think, seem to think this was bad even though there were five letters to the editor that all stunk. So, anyway, I thought I’d just write and tell him I didn’t think I’d go.
RFK: Was he jolly?
JFK: Oh, yeah, he’s very agreeable, very pleasant.
RFK: What I called you about is this damn school construction.
JFK: Yeah?
RFK: You know, for the schools down in these bases?
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: Had you wanted the schools to be put up?
JFK: No, I haven’t really given this matter any thought at all, I just …
RFK: They understood over at HEW, you know, Ribicoff14 announced it last March.
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: And as I understood that you weren’t …
JFK: That’s right.
RFK: … exactly happy about that.
JFK: Well, I didn’t know what, that’s right.
RFK: And then, they, and it’s quite ridiculous actually, but then, and then they announced back in January, because they understood from Ted Sorensen that you wanted an announcement. They were going to put two more schools out, and they’ve announced six, but, for instance, Fort McClellan, they’re gonna erect a school for, well, no, here’s one, Fort Rucker. Grades one to six, 892 on-base children, a total of fourteen Negro children, and the estimated cost is $742,000.
JFK: Just because of the fourteen?
RFK: Yeah. Fort Stewart’s twenty-three children, that’s $297,000. Robbins Air Force Base is eight Negro children, $594,000. Fort Jackson, eighteen children, $234,000.
JFK: Fort Jackson where? Where’s Fort Jackson?
RFK: Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Myrtle Beach is …
JFK: And what is your suggestion?
RFK: Well, and then they’re gonna put two more, so it’s eight. It’s gonna cost about three million bucks. We got a court case, you see, at the present time.
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: And which probably won’t be resolved for another year, or a year and a, maybe two years before it perhaps goes to the Supreme Court which will resolve all of these matters. What they will do by spending for these eight places, they’ll spend about $3 million, and they’ll get maybe an extra year for about fifty or sixty children …
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: … Negro children. Well, they’ve been going all this long period of time, it just seems like a hell of a lot of money. Now …
JFK: Well, the problem is a political problem, I suppose, isn’t it?
RFK: Yeah. Having made the announcement.
JFK: Yeah. But, you know, was Roy Wilkins criticizing the way HEW did it first?
RFK: Yeah. Well, now, can I, can we see what …
JFK: What we should’ve done is just left with the …
RFK: That’s right.
JFK: … legal case. I don’t know how we got beyond that.
RFK: Well that’s what was a mistake …
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: … which was made at the end of January.
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: But I told ’em over there that …
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: … make sure we have coordination on these damn things.
JFK: Yeah.
RFK: Ah well, can we leave it at that, if you don’t have any strong feeling about it?
JFK: I want to talk to Ted Sorensen, ’cause he’s been working on it.
RFK: All right.
JFK: Let me find out, ’cause he may know some of the problems that I don’t know on it.
RFK: Well, I, what I’d like to do is to see if I could work something out, which would be satisfactory to everybody. Maybe it’s not possible, but they are …
JFK: Or maybe you can …
RFK: Celebrezze15 thought that you had been personally interested so I want to …
JFK: No, I’m not. I don’t care. Just a real question of trying to deal with a political problem.
RFK: Well, whatever we do, we’ll talk to Ted first.
JFK: OK, fine. I’ll talk to him. Right.
CALL TO SENATOR EDWARD M. KENNEDY, MARCH 7, 1963
President Kennedy’s youngest brother, Edward M. Kennedy, was one of the principal beneficiaries of the 1962 midterm election, and he won the Senate seat that he would hold until his death in 2009. Not yet “the Lion of the Senate,” in this call he regales his older brother with humorous stories of Massachusetts politics.
PRESIDENT KENNEDY INTRODUCES HIS BROTHER SENATOR EDWARD M. KENNEDY (D-MASSACHUSETTS) AT A MASSACHUSETTS DEMOCRATIC PARTY FUND-RAISER, BOSTON ARMORY, OCTOBER 19, 1963
EMK: … You know the thing that sort of got this, the one thing like yesterday that they had the big horse laugh about is they said, here’s a guy, you know one of the wool people said, here’s a guy who’s talking about keeping out foreign imports, he says, and what’s he do, but pulls up in a Mercedes-Benz!
JFK: Who’s that?
EMK: Herter.16
JFK: Oh, is that right?
EMK: Yeah, and he evidently drives around here and he’s got that Massachusetts governor’s license plate on it, or something, so …
JFK: [laughs]
EMK: … everyone turns around and takes a look …
JFK: [laughs]
EMK: … he drove up to that wool meeting. He said that really let the balloon, air out of every balloon in there.
JFK: Right.
EMK: But …
JFK: But, of course, it’s tough, I tell you, boy, we went through that yesterday for two hours …
EMK: Yeah.
JFK: … about what we could do on wool. You see, those guys don’t want to give up that market.
EMK: Yeah.
JFK: And, you know, it’s just a …
EMK: Well, he’s got a, you know …
JFK: But anyway, Christian, he’s a great free-trader, but we’re anyway, we’re gonna, we’re meeting with Pastore17 tomorrow and we’ll discuss it then.
EMK: He’s, Mike’s got, he’s really got a … awfully good grasp, and he made a hell of a good presentation …
JFK: Right.
EMK: … of the problem.
JFK: OK, good, fine.
EMK: Good enough.
JFK: See you later.
EMK: Bye.
CALL TO SENATOR GEORGE SMATHERS, JUNE 4, 1963
As President, Kennedy retained many of his friendships from the Senate. He particularly enjoyed the company of George Smathers, a Florida Democrat who acted as a grooms
man at his wedding, and managed the Southeast for Kennedy’s presidential campaign. Smathers did not support much of the Civil Rights agenda, but his personal friendship was meaningful to Kennedy, and as this conversation shows, they laughed easily together.
JFK: [reading a facetious note] “… due to your correspondence with various members of the government over the last eighteen months, it appears to me that you are experiencing serious worries that the United States is about to be attacked by the United Nations. This is, indeed, a serious condition. In order to be able to be of assistance to you, I am glad to inform you that the president will fulfill his oath of office and defend the United States from any attack. The President does not believe the United States would be attacked by the United Nations, Iceland, Chad or the Samoan Islands. But he does want you to clearly understand that regardless of the source of the attack he will meet his responsibilities under the United States Constitution.”
SMATHERS:18 Right.
JFK: “While we have many other matters before us here, we want you to know that we are always glad to hear from you concerning any matters that are disturbing you.”
SMATHERS: Fine, now that’s very good. [laughter] I think that’s good, it’s cute.
JFK: Is that all right?
SMATHERS: I think that’s fine. And would you have him, yeah, let me have a copy, so …
JFK: All right, I’ll put on the letter, I’ll put “copy to Senator Smathers.”
SMATHERS: Yeah, that’d be very helpful.
JFK: OK.
SMATHERS: I think that’s fine.
JFK: OK. Thank you.
SMATHERS: … Mr. President, proud of you, [you go and get] … [laughter] I got that word, that’s good, that’ll, just enough, nice, that Samoan Islands. [laughter] But that, just what this damned fool needs to be told, see. He can’t show that letter …
JFK: No.
SMATHERS: … and that’ll stop that.
JFK: He can’t show this one. OK. We’ll get another one then. OK.
SMATHERS: All right. Say, I got, I talked, generally without, you know, about this fellow …
JFK: Yeah.
SMATHERS: Negotiating, Southern himself, Southern himself, that, that his crowd and he will do anything. They’ll take down their pants and let ’em do anything.