by Mike Wallace
When I interviewed Brooks in 2001, I asked him about his decision to depict one of the most evil men who ever lived as a goofball.
This was his reply:
“Hitler was part of this incredible idea that you could put Jews in concentration camps and kill them. And how do you get even? How do you get even with the man? There’s only one way to get even. You have to bring him down with ridicule. Because if you stand on a soapbox and match him with rhetoric, you’re just as bad as he is. But if you can make people laugh at him, then you’re one up on him. And one of my lifelong jobs has been to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler.”
Throughout his long career, Brooks has worn his Jewish heart on his sleeve. There have beenother Jewish comedians who almost never drew attention to their ethnic identity—Jack Benny and Mort Sahl are just two who come to mind—but Brooks’s brand of humor has always beendrivenby a Jewish sensibility, evenwhenthe material was not overtly Jewish. Much of the time, his comedy has had a hard cutting edge; some of his silliest pranks and broad slapstick
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routines have revealed his lifelong resentment of the way Jews have beenpersecuted downthrough the centuries. Still, I never heard Brooks address the questionina serious veinuntil our interview.
WhenI asked him about his seeming obsessionwith Jews and Jewishness, his mood suddenly grew dark, and his voice snapped with indignation.
B R O O K S : Maybe because I’m angry. Who knows? It may be a deep-seated anger at anti-Semitism. Yes, I am a Jew. I am a Jew.
W A L L A C E : Yeah.
B R O O K S : What about it? What about it? What’s so wrong?
What’s the matter with being a Jew? I think there’s a lot of that way down deep beneath all the quick Jewish jokes that I do.
W A L L A C E : You’ve never suffered for being Jewish.
B R O O K S : Oh, and I was in the army. “Jew boy, out of my way.
Out of my face, Jew boy.” This guy called me Jew-something, and I—I walked over to him. I took his helmet off. I said, “I don’t want to hurt your helmet, ’cause it’s GI issue.” And I smashed him in the head with my mess kit.
That outburst really caught me by surprise. Here was a man who had spent his life making jokes about almost everything, and now, in a dramatic turnabout, Brooks was giving our viewers a rare glimpse of the pain and rage lurking behind the mirth.
The two of us are from roughly the same generation (Brooks is eight years younger), and as I sat there listening to his grievance, I was struck by the contrast between the tribulations of his young manhood and my own experience. It is hardly surprising that I had
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no direct contact with anti-Semitism when I was growing up in Brookline, for in that heavily ethnic community, most of our friends and neighbors were Jewish. But I left Brookline when I was seventeen and spent the next several years in the Midwest, first as a student at the University of Michigan and then as a broadcaster at radio stations in Detroit and Chicago. After that came a two-year hitch as a naval officer in the Pacific during World War II. Neither then nor at any other time in my life did I try to conceal the fact that I was Jewish, and yet I never personally felt the sting of anti-Semitism.
This is not to suggest that I lived in some kind of Pollyanna bubble. I was fully aware that there were some Americans (no doubt more than I cared to admit) who disdained Jews and wanted little to do with us. If there were occasional slights and sneers, they were so inconsequential that I just shrugged them off. I can say for certain that I was never the target of the kind of ugly insults that Brooks had to deal with when he was in the army.
Toward the end of our interview, I observed that the long ride on his blazing saddle was nearing an end, and he had to face the prospect of being put out to pasture.
W A L L A C E : You realize that The Producers on Broadway is the capstone of your career. You’re seventy-five.
B R O O K S : Stop already with the—
W A L L A C E : Wait, wait, wait, wait.
B R O O K S : I—I don’t want to hear that anymore.
W A L L A C E : It’s all—
B R O O K S : Stop. Don’t remind me. I don’t look in the mirror and I don’t look in the calendar.
W A L L A C E : It’s all downhill from now on.
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I later learned from a mutual friend that Brooks was a sensitive septuagenarian who was furious at me for suggesting that his best years were behind him. “He hated that,” I was told, “he hated what you said about it being ‘all downhill from now on.’ ”
At the time, I thought it was obvious that I was merely being playful, one geezer teasing a fellow graybeard, and a younger one at that.
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AND NOW A FINAL WORD from the old geezer. As I write this in the spring of 2005, I realize some people are wondering when I’m going to retire. But for the moment I continue working because I wouldn’t know what to do if I didn’t. And I continue to be given opportunities I can’t turn down.
Example? In March of this year, 2005, I got an unexpected call from Beth Knobel, CBS News bureau chief in Moscow, to tell me that she’d received a surprise invitation from the Kremlin: They wanted me to come to Moscow in early May for an interview with Russian president Vladimir Putin.
What in the world? I wondered.
It turned out Putin was planning a huge celebration for May 9, B E T W E E N Y O U A N D M E
the sixtieth anniversary of the end of World War II. Leaders from the United States, Germany, and France were coming, along with others from around the world. But President Putin, of course, had no idea what a gift he was giving me with his invitation, because May 9, 2005, was also my eighty-seventh birthday.
The ground rules for our unexpected sit-down, set by his worka-holic press secretary Alexei Gromov? Forty-five minutes with Putin, at least half of which had to be about the sixtieth anniversary celebration . . . and half about other questions involving him and Russia.
When Gromov showed up for a pre-interview meeting, I launched into a spiel about how important it is, in order to get a nuanced and fully realized portrait of a world figure like Putin, to have sufficient time with him. Well, we drank a little vodka while Gromov ate and chain-smoked and worked his cell phone. And he wound up doubling my time with Putin.
Putin and I, it turned out, were quite comfortable with each other. He spoke Russian on camera and idiomatic fluent English off camera. He was amiable, savvy, talkative. And neither he nor Gromov asked for my questions ahead of time.
His “democracy,” of which he’s very proud, is not our democracy by any means, but he’s made it clear it’s a long way from the old Soviet system. Fact is, there’s a remarkably free, free press in Russia today—lots of newspapers and magazines and cable shows, with opposition coming from many of them—and opposition on the streets, too. But the Kremlin still controls the news that’s seen across Russia on the three major television networks, one of which nightly covers the comings and goings of the president.
Putin, the inscrutable former KGB agent, the tough-guy president labeled by some a dictator but who calls himself a democrat, had been anointed by Boris Yeltsin as his successor in dealing with
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the greedy oligarchs who had made themselves billionaires by buying up Russia’s natural resources—its oil, its energy, its state-owned industries—at bargain basement prices, with Yeltsin looking on.
Putin surprised me by his willingness to talk about things like the clout of those oligarchs, most of whom are Jewish, and he spoke candidly about the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Russia, which he deplored.
He’s now in his second and—according to the Russian constitution—last term as president. In 2008, he’ll be out of a job, fifty-fiv
e years old and still in the prime of life. What will he do? He says he won’t try to amend the constitution in order to stay on. Almost as a joke, I asked him: “What about journalism?” No age limit, the money’s good, and he’d get a chance, perhaps, to interview the next president of the United States for Russian television.
I didn’t tell him that I myself have never gotten a chance to interview the current president of the United States. Karl Rove wouldn’t let me talk to him even when he was merely governor of Texas. So . . .
I’ve interviewed just about every president since Abe Lincoln, including Bush the elder, number 41, but never George W., number 43.
So how about it, Mr. President, isn’t it time you gave this old man a break?
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A C K N O W L E D G M E N T S
TELEVISION JOURNALISM IS PERFORCE A collaborative undertaking—reporters, producers, researchers, cameramen and
-women, sound technicians, film and tape editors spending days and nights traveling, bird-dogging in pursuit of something they (we) believe is useful, important, and, ultimately, satisfying.
If you’ve watched 60 Minutes with any regularity, you’ve seen their names roll by too fast on the credits at the end of each broadcast.
There’s no way to adequately recognize them here. Many of them are not simply coworkers, they’re my friends, and I am in their debt.
I N D E X
A&E, 20th Century series, 85
Elijah Muhammad, 87–88, 89–90
Abbas, Mahmoud, 121
Emancipation Proclamation, 79–80
ABC Television
Farrakhan, 93–98
executive decisions in, 10–11, 78, 164
Faubus interview, 74–75, 166
Mike Wallace Interview on, 5–6, 68, 78,
“I Have a Dream,” 80
159, 164–67
and integration, 72–73, 80, 81
Actors Studio, 258
Jim Crow laws, 68, 76
Aesop’s fables, 32
King, 76–85, 91–92
Afghanistan, Soviet invasion of, 131
King assassination, 84, 91
African-Americans
King interviews, 78, 79–80, 82–84
in Birmingham, 80
Ku Klux Klan vs., 68–70
Black Muslims, 86–91, 93, 98
and legislation, 79
black power, 82
in Little Rock, 73–75
black separatism, 88
Malcolm X, 87–92, 93–96
“by any means necessary,” 88, 92
militant activists, 81–82, 85–92
Civil Rights Act, 81
Million Man March, 96
de facto segregation in the north, 81
Montgomery boycott, 76–77, 84
Eastland interview, 70–72
nonviolent protest, 77, 78, 80, 83, 84
economic plight of, 83–84
Organization of Afro-American Unity, 89
Edwards interview, 68–70, 80
Parks, Rosa, 76
I N D E X
African-Americans (continued)
Baryshnikov, Mikhail, 157
and Philip Morris Company, 71
Bassett, Angela, 242
and presidential politics, 74, 78–81
Beatty, Warren, 222, 225
segregation of, 67–85
Bedell, Sally, 195
and Supreme Court, 70, 71, 72–73, 75, Beethoven, Ludwig van, 151
76, 77
Begin, Menachem
and urban riots, 81
and Camp David accords, 109–10,
voter registration, 81
112–13
white backlash, 82
and guerrilla warfare, 107, 108, 113
After the Fall (Miller), 262
MW interviews with, 105–9, 114
Allen, Steve, 268
Nobel Peace Prize to, 113
Allen, Woody, 270
and Sadat, 109–10, 112–13
Al Qaeda, 131, 132
Belafonte, Harry, 93
American Jewish Congress, 98, 103–4, 108
Bennett, Tony, 174
American Legion, 138–39
Benny, Jack, 204, 226, 271
Anderson, Marian, 39–40
Benton, Rita, 147
Andrews, Julie, 247
Benton, Thomas Hart (artist), 144–48
Anti-Defamation League, B’nai B’rith, 69
America’s heartland reflected in work of, Apartment, The (film), 222
144
Apple, R. W., 189
death of, 148
Arab oil embargo (1970s), 47, 101, 122
and Martha’s Vineyard Arts Association, Arafat, Yasir, 107–8, 113–22
147–48
aging and death of, 119–20
MW interview with, 145–47
and Camp David accords, 114
reputation of, 144–45, 146, 147
and Carter, 114–15
Benton, Thomas Hart (senator), 144
courage of, 120–21
Bergen, Candice, 247
eyes of, 113–14
Bergman, Lowell, and Tobacco War, 206–9, and Middle East peace efforts, 116–19
211, 212, 214, 215–16, 218–19
MW interviews with, 114–15, 118–21
Bernstein, Carl, 176
Nobel Peace Prize to, 116
Bernstein, Leonard, 157
and Oslo Accords, 116, 117, 119
Beschloss, Michael, 23, 24
Redgrave’s support of, 229
Better Government Association (BGA),
Arendt, Hannah, 107
176–77, 184
Arkansas National Guard, 73
Betty and Bob (radio), 52
Armies of the Night, The (Mailer), 250
Bingham, Wade, 181
Art Students League, 144
bin Laden, Osama, 132
Asphalt Jungle, The (film), 159
Birmingham, Alabama, 80
Assad, Hafez al, 101, 102
Black Muslims, 86–91, 93, 98
Atlanta Constitution, The, 69
Boies, David, 198, 202
Atlanta Journal, The, 69
Bonanno, Bill, 172–74
Autobiography of Malcolm X (Malcolm X and Bonanno, Joe, MW interview with,
Haley), 91–92
171–74
Bon Soir, New York, 233
Bach, Erwin, 243–44, 245
Boston Globe, The, 60
Baker, Norma Jeane
Bostonians, The (film), 232
and Dougherty, 257–58
Bradley, Ed, 158, 241
see also Monroe, Marilyn
Brando, Marlon, 173
Baldwin, James, 246
Brenner, Marie, 218
Bankhead, Tallulah, 247
Brice, Fanny, 236
Barak, Ehud, 117, 118
Britt, May, 80
Barasch, Philip, 177–78
Brookline, Massachusetts, 7–9, 273
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I N D E X
Brooks, Mel
Castro, Fidel, 113, 170–71, 229
as comedian, 269–70
Catholic Church, 134–36
Jewish heart of, 271–72
CBS News
MW interview with, 269–74
documentaries, 82, 88
and Producers, 269, 270–71, 273
Hewitt’s creativity with, 30
Brown, Edmund G. (Pat), 54
on influential people, 63, 137
Brown & Williamson, 207–12, 213, 219
in-house probe by, 195, 196–97, 203
Brown v. Board of Education, 72–73, 77
and Jewish lobby, 103
Buchwald, Art, 51, 147
libel suit against, 197–99, 202–3
Buckley, William F., 194
Morning News, 82, 89, 90, 188
Bullock, Annie Mae, see Turner, Tina MW’s assignments for, 13, 24, 100, 167,
Burrows, Abe, 142
206
Burt, Dan, 197–98
news vs. corporate culture in, 211–13, Bush, George H. W., 63, 277
215, 217
Bush, George W., 131, 277
and Tobacco War, 211–15, 217
20th Century, 85
Caesar, Sid, 3, 270
and Vietnam, 199
California Pacifica University, 180–82, 184
and Westinghouse, 213, 217
Callas, Maria, 157
CBS Reports, 82
Camel News Caravan (TV), 204
responsibility for, 196
Camery, James, 179
Westmoreland documentary on, 187,
Camino, The: A Journey of the Spirit 190–96, 202
(MacLaine), 226–27
Channel 5, New York
Camp David, and Oslo Accords, 117–18
eleven o’clock news, 1
Camp David accords, 109–10, 112–13, 114, Night Beat, 1–3, 160
117
Channel 13, New York, MW interviews on, Canaday, John, 145–46
78, 87, 88
Capital Legal Foundation, 197–98
Charlie Rose Show, The (TV), 217
Capone, Al, 82, 171–72
Chicago Sun-Times, 177
Carmichael, Stokely, 82
Christian Tennessee University, 180
Carson, Johnny, 263–68
Churchill, Winston, 137
death of, 263–64
Cicero, Illinois, 82
at Hasty Pudding Club, 264, 268
civil rights, see African-Americans MW interview with, 264–68, 269
Civil Rights Act (1964), 81
privacy sought by, 264, 266, 268
Civil War, U.S., as Mr. Lincoln’s War, 22
and Tonight Show, 264, 265, 266–67, 268
Clifford, Clark, 10–12
Carter, Jimmy
Clinton, Bill, 43
and Camp David accords, 109–10, 112,
in Arkansas, 76
114
and impeachment, 45
loss to Reagan, 59
and Oslo Accords, 116, 117
and Middle East, 105–6, 109–10, 112,
Clinton, Hillary Rodham, 44–45
114–15, 127
Close Encounters (Wallace), 3
MW interview of, 47–49
Cohen, Mickey, 6, 159–65
post-presidency of, 51
as florist, 160
problems during presidency of, 47, 48
as killer, 161–62
rise to power of, 45–46
MW interview with, 161–63, 165, 166