COOPER: I’ve never been to Scoveston Park.
POLICE: Okay. In your dealings with Richard and Helen Thomas did they give you anything?
COOPER: Did they, no never, no. Most I ever did for them was put things in their car for them from Flo.
POLICE: Did you ever give anything to them or lend anything to them?
COOPER: No.
POLICE: So in essence what you’re telling us as far as you can recall you can never remember visiting there?
COOPER: No, I can remember meeting them at Flo’s, Thornhill.
Cooper was clearly distancing himself from ever visiting Scoveston Park. This contradicted a number of witnesses who had put John Cooper on land at Scoveston Park and even working there. Cooper gave the impression that the murders were discussed amongst his family on a number of occasions and that they were shocked and disturbed that Richard had been involved in a gay relationship. He said that they felt this was the motive for the murders. At the end of this interview DS Rees stressed the importance of Mr Cooper recalling whether he had ever been to Scoveston Park or not.
The next interview commenced at 15.24 on Thursday 3 July. The first part of the interview was about Cooper’s character and how he saw himself as a person. He described himself as a very kind person who would do anything to help people out. In reality people gave him a wide berth. Cooper did agree that he shouted a great deal, but claimed he was not a violent man. He said the shouting was because of the behaviour of his son Adrian, who he suggested was ‘out of control’. Again it was clear that he was going out of his way to discredit his son, who had already told us about a life of misery at the hands of his father. (Though nothing Adrian had told us about his father in his testimony had been put to Cooper). Adrian had suggested his father constantly justified his own behaviour, but once he had done so he would be fine. This echoed what forensic criminal psychologist Dr Adrian West had told us: “Cooper was dangerous because he could justify everything he did.” When asked about the unprovoked assault on his former landlord Mike Richards, Cooper again deflected any blame to Richards, suggesting he was responsible for what happened. What we knew was that Mike Richards was so frightened of Cooper that he never collected rent for over nine years, amounting to over £7,000 in lost income.
The interview then moved to the events of 22 December 1985, and the murders. Cooper was questioned, and given the opportunity to comment on his whereabouts for the relevant time. He maintained he was at home, busy preparing poultry as it was just before Christmas.
POLICE: Okay. Right we are now going to discuss or concentrate on the events on Sunday the 22nd of December 1985. The night of the brutal murder of Helen and Richard Thomas. The way we are going to... or the questioning is going to give you an opportunity to tell us whether you were the person responsible okay? And by doing that for the offence of murder we have to run through the various stages of the incident, okay? And asking you at each stage whether you were the person who is responsible for each stage of the incident, okay? And also give you the opportunity to give any lines of defence, mitigation or alibi, okay? And also to give you the opportunity of explaining whether or not the sequence of events is correct, okay? So I can appreciate that some of the areas we are going to touch upon, some of the questions may be difficult but as you have seen throughout –
COOPER: Sorry I don’t want to interrupt. That’s quite simple I didn’t kill them, so I didn’t kill them, end of story.
POLICE: Okay. Tell me whether you were the person who approached Scoveston Park House that night?
COOPER: No, I didn’t kill anybody at Scoveston Park, I was feathering and preparing turkeys and delivering turkeys and doing turkeys for two weeks at least.
POLICE: The crime scene assessment shows the vehicle is parked in the yard at Scoveston and that the driver’s door was open.
COOPER: I’ve seen photographs.
POLICE: Tell me whether you saw that vehicle that night.
COOPER: Er no.
POLICE: The crime scene assessment shows that the keys to the vehicle were missing.
COOPER: I see yeah.
POLICE: Tell me were you the person responsible for taking the keys away from the scene?
COOPER: No.
POLICE: A crime scene assessment shows that in an outbuilding there was a deposit of blood. Were you person responsible for attempting to conceal that item?
COOPER: Er no.
POLICE: From the crime scene assessment it is evident that Richard Thomas received two shotgun wounds. One was a close contact shot to the abdomen: were you the person responsible for shooting Richard Thomas to the abdomen?”
COOPER: No.
POLICE: He also sustained a raking shot, part of which was retained the side of his face. Tell me whether you were the person responsible for shooting Richard Thomas to the face.
COOPER: No.
POLICE: From the crime scene assessment and post-mortem, it is evident that Helen Thomas was shot, or received a shotgun wound to the base of her skull. Explain whether you were the person who shot Helen Thomas.
COOPER: No, I was not.
POLICE: Tell me whether you were the person responsible for setting fire to Scoveston Park that night.
COOPER: ’twasn’t me, no.
POLICE: Examination of the crime scene also shows, following a search of the premises there were no shotguns present, okay? So when the police got there and the scene was searched and examined there were no shotguns present. Tell me whether you were the person responsible for removing shotguns from Scoveston Park that night?
COOPER: No, it wasn’t me, no.
POLICE: In relation to Scoveston, just a few further points I’d like to cover. You mentioned that you may have touched the Rover car innocently whilst it was outside.
COOPER: I definitely touched the Rover car over at Flo’s to put stuff in the car. And when the gentleman used to come in, that’s right, he used to usually leave the driver’s door open. You know, he’d get out of the car; he wasn’t a door shutter when you went over there. Because he was never there that long. It was an in and an out.
POLICE: Okay. In relation to Scoveston, I’m going to show you some photos now and ask you whether you’ve been in particular parts of this property, okay?
COOPER: Sure.
POLICE: I’m showing you photographs. The first one I’ll be showing you is a front photo of Scoveston Park just after the fire. Can you see that photograph?
COOPER: Yeah.
POLICE: Okay: Have you ever been inside that property?
COOPER: Oh no, no, no.
POLICE: The next photo I’m going to show you is an outhouse at Scoveston which is photo number 2 in the same photo album. Can you see that outbuilding there?
COOPER: Er yes I can, yeah.
POLICE: The next photo is of the lane leading down to Scoveston Park. Tell me whether you’ve been down that lane? Is there anything you feel you should tell us at the moment then in relation to the offence we are investigating about Scoveston?
COOPER: Er I was far too busy, far too busy. Only ten days before maybe until about a day or two after Christmas.
POLICE: Okay. And are there lines of enquiry or defences you think we should be investigating at this stage?
COOPER: Could I speak with my solicitor please?
POLICE: Yeah we are coming to an end now anyway, so it would be an opportune time perhaps for you to have a chat with her.
COOPER: Okay. Just to clarify anything at this stage. May I say something before then?
POLICE: Yes, certainly.
COOPER: It’s just to confer. Is does that mean things not, not to do with me. Because I mean we are here to talk about me at the moment, so do you mean others not concerned with me, that question?
POLICE: I mean what I mean. Obviously we are investigating the offence of murder of Richard and Helen Thomas.
COOPER: Yeah.
POLICE: So if there’s anything you feel you could assist us in our investi
gation with that offence, this is your opportunity to tell us about that.
COOPER: Oh yeah, yeah, I want to. We spoke about this earlier on and I may have, I don’t know. If it was it was a fleeting visit to pick up machinery for Mike Richards. So Mike Richards could answer better than I. I’m really not sure.
POLICE: Tell me whether you’ve ever been inside that outbuilding?
COOPER: Oh not to my knowledge, no I wouldn’t have thought so.
POLICE: The next photograph I’m going to show you is the photo from the same album of the yard area, by the outbuildings.
COOPER: Yeah.
POLICE: Tell me whether you’ve ever been to that area?
COOPER: Now I’m not sure about that one. If I’d have to go on Mike Richards’ judgement.
POLICE: We discussed blood. We found Richard Thomas’s blood, being found in the outhouse, okay? I’m showing you to a photograph that is the last but one photograph in the album, tell me whether you’ve ever been inside?
COOPER: Not to my knowledge, no.
The next interview was fascinating and confirmed that Cooper had watched the ITV News broadcast from the coastal path on the night of 7 November 2007. (The names of the actual people have been changed to protect their identity).
POLICE: Thank you. As I said, you are here to be interviewed in connection with the murder of Richard and Helen Thomas. This offence occurred on 22nd December 1985. In previous interviews over the last couple of days we have spoken to you about numerous matters which include your knowledge of the offence, your movements on the night in question and your, your use and knowledge of ropes, guns, ammunition At the end of the last interview you indicated you wished to speak to your solicitor, is there anything you wish to add at this stage of the interview process regarding your knowledge of the events at Scoveston?
COOPER: Yes um you asked me a specific question after I answered to the best of my ability ah questions about ah any involvement...
POLICE: Yes.
COOPER: ...that I may have had in these murders, which I had indicated there was not. Then you asked me do I know anything else not appertaining to me about that and I indicated that I wished to speak to my solicitor.
POLICE: That’s correct.
COOPER: I’d already had discussions with my solicitor about an item that I will reveal to you now. But because of the treatment by the police to me on previous occasions...
POLICE: Yes.
COOPER: ...I explained to my solicitor that I didn’t want to ah introduce this at any early stage because I considered this um whole interview about John Cooper.
POLICE: Right.
COOPER: Now I have been accused of lying by the police and courts and trying to put in smoke screens about anything that I have been involved in my life, and so this item, whether it’s anything or not, it is nothing to do with me. It is up to you people, so I will, I will.
POLICE: Okay.
COOPER: It’s simply this, I was in Parc Prison Bridgend as you know and there was an incident in Parc Prison in November last year. It wasn’t actually an incident, it was something that was said to me. Okay um I’ll just try and give you a picture of what it was, the incident, although it may be just a throwaway and not so much me, but you have to be cautious of what it is because in prison unfortunately there are weird characters. Okay so basically it is this. I do carpentry in prison and I do work for lots of guys, for inmates. I was asked by the prison to make a chair or something for the local hospital to raffle, because they know I’m pretty good and I make people things. And so I made a Windsor chair. An inmate in prison saw what I did and wanted one for his son. This inmate was called um Gareth Mills. I saw him on the landings leaning over because usually I do my writing in my cell. I went looking for him because I had finished his chair I went to him and I said your chair’s finished, it’s lovely, blah blah, and we were leaning on the rail like this. And he said Coop he said you’re from Milford Haven. I said yes, he said do you know Dillon? No I don’t know Dillon, I’ve heard of Dillon from Hakin somewhere in Milford Haven. So he said do you know Dillon? I said yes and he says, now it doesn’t matter at this stage because it doesn’t matter what he either said he was tooled up with. You know what tooled up means?
POLICE: Yes.
COOPER: Or he said drunk one night. And Dillon was supposed to have said to Mills, um he did the Milford murders. It stunned me for a while and my sort of, my reaction was to say, I said said what? He said Dillon said he did the Milford murders. I said uh have you told somebody about this? He said no, no and I said do you think you should tell somebody about this? And he said yes, yes maybe. Now Mills was going out, this was November. Now the exact date is in my diary because I thought it relevant enough to put in my diary. So all I can say is that in this moment in time, it was in November. Yes the exact date is in my diary. So Mills was getting out January this year. Now he’s originally from Pembroke Dock. I actually put his prison number in there but I can’t, I can’t remember it off hand. He’s from Pembroke Dock. He said he was going to try and get a place in Hakin or Milford Haven. Now that is the sum total of it all. Ah so I didn’t want to introduce that at any stage earlier because we’re here about me not about this.
POLICE: Yes.
COOPER: So that is what it is, nothing or whatever. So he said Dillon said to me he did the murders, and I, and I said well I think you should tell somebody about it. And he says yes maybe, and that was the conversation. I walked away from him, and I sort of sat down by myself, and I entered it in my diary, so it is in my diary for what it’s worth.
Cooper confirmed that the term, ‘Milford Murders’ related to the Scoveston Park offences. Dillon was well known to me. I had arrested him in 1995 for a robbery in Milford Haven, in which he had tied up the victim. It was big local news at the time and Cooper would have known this. He was the ideal person to throw into the frame. What Cooper didn’t know was that Dillon was in prison at the time of the murders and it could not have been him. Fast track enquiries with Gareth Mills were carried out who denied having anything to do with Cooper, and we had no reason to doubt him. The diary was quickly recovered from his cell, and it showed an entry for 7 November 2007. In it Cooper indicated he has been told that Dillon committed the Milford Haven murders. That very same night I had stood on the coastal path and said that the murders were being re-opened and that forensic science would have a significant say in the outcome. Even more telling was the press cuttings in the diary dated after 7 November, which detailed the impact of DNA evidence on high profile cases. From 7 November 2007, Cooper had become very interested in DNA. He was clearly a worried man.
The next interview began at 10.46 a.m. on Friday 4 July 2008. Prior to the interview at 9.45 a.m., the interview adviser DS Clarke spoke to Cooper’s solicitor and informed her that we needed to clarify an issue, and that we would then move on to the Dixons enquiry. Mrs Jovanovic asked DS Clarke when the results of the Scoveston forensic issues would be known.
POLICE: I appreciate last night’s interview was quite stressful, you had a lot to say about Adrian. Your solicitor’s mentioned that you’ve got something you wish to bring to my attention in this interview so I’ll give you the opportunity now then.
COOPER: Thank you. It’s just four of the points that I answered questions on yesterday and after going back to the room I remembered more details about these things, so if I could just tell you more details.
POLICE: Yeah.
COOPER: On the point of have I been in the yard at Scoveston, I’m 95 percent sure that I have. Do you have a photograph of the yard in Scoveston?
POLICE: We don’t have it in this interview; we’d be able to get one for the next.
COOPER: There’s something that sparked my memory and it’s a clock, it’s like a clock tower. Now if there’s a clock tower in there, see it’s a bit confusing because it’s so long ago and there was lots of pictures in the paper and sometimes you think you’ve been to somewhere and you maybe haven’t.
> POLICE: Yeah I appreciate that.
COOPER: But there was a distinctive clock tower, now the more I think of it, I believe I have been in that yard for Mr Mike Richards, to pick up irrigation equipment I would believe, and with me then would have been Stanley Lewis and his sons John and Paul, Dougie Davies, Chris Thomas. It’ll be a number of those, not all of them but a number of those would, those were his main workers but it would have been for Mike Richards. And sorry, the other part is have I been in the buildings or the rooms there – the guys did nose around without a shadow of a doubt, so it’s a possibility. But yes I believe I’d been in there and yes it was to pick up irrigation equipment I believe many years ago.
POLICE: Okay in terms of nosing around the rooms do you mean in the outbuildings or in the house itself.
COOPER: Ah not in the house, no not in the house, it was in the yard, it was a full muddy yard, very impressive but very dilapidated you know, which for me as a builder it was not nice to see things like that, it was sad. And yeah the guys nosed round naturally but I was there to pick up irrigation equipment. But you know he, and of course he had workers to do his farms, you can’t run farms so he did have friends, acquaintances and all but for people that he didn’t know, he had to really know a person first like me, and other people he didn’t know, he would be one word answers, so just to elaborate on that. And the keys, you mentioned, you asked me did I touch the keys of a Rover car, my answer was no, my answer is still no. But I’d like to add that that was an old Rover, I will guarantee that at least twenty keys in my famous bucket would have fitted the locks to that car, I would guarantee it. Because on older cars with worn locks, not necessarily the same make of car key would fit it, any car key would fit it if it was worn so yes, my bucket most probably had about twenty estimate, that would have opened the locks to that car, to any old car, because they were worn.
Cooper also explained that he was part of shooting parties that would hunt on various parts of land around Scoveston Park, and that he and the men would swap cartridges. His answers revealed that he was desperate to explain any forensic trace of him that might be found in the outbuildings at Scoveston, on the Rover car and on keys and on the cartridges under his duck run. Cooper had had more than enough time and detailed disclosures to come up with these explanations. At this point I so wished we had the Rover car! Another interesting point came out of the interview. Shortly before the Dixons were murdered Cooper’s landlord Mike Richards, whom he had previously assaulted, served him with notice to quit his home in Jordanston. Cooper admitted that after this he stopped going into the fields for a while so as to avoid being seen by Mr Richards. This might explain why he left his usual offending area and moved further afield to somewhere he knew well, the Pembrokeshire Coastal Path.
The Pembrokeshire Murders: Catching the Bullseye Killer Page 13