by Mike Sacks
[Laughs] Exactly, yes. It's amazing. And there's another incident in which Ali G refers to himself as a black man. And the subject nods in agreement. You just think, Look at this guy, for crying out loud! Ali G is not black! People's reactions to race are so powerful and weird and twisted; it's just an amazing thing to see.
Were you surprised by Ali G's success?
Oh, hugely. It's one thing to do something funny, and that's great, and all you can do as a comedy writer is to write funny things and hope that people find them. But the idea that so many people found this character and he became such a phenomenon is incredible to me. The furor over Da Ali G Show when the show first came out in Britain in 2000 was amazing. He was on the cover of every newspaper and magazine.
It was both making news and causing controversy. 11-year-old kids were quoting it, and the Queen Mother was watching it and doing the Ali G hand-sign. Prince William and Prince Harry wanted to meet Sacha. It was a genuine pop-culture phenomenon. And I think if you try to go out and create something like that, it won't happen; it was just a weird confluence of events. It was a zeitgeisty thing that happened that really captured the mood of the moment. And so it completely blew us away.
How did Ali G capture the mood of the moment? What came together at that point, do you think, to create this level of success?
I think it came about at a time in English society when there were these weird cultural shifts. I think the nineties was a time when England moved away from a society that was motivated, influenced, and led by class to one that was actually more influenced by pop culture. And at that crossroads, that's where Ali G exists. The people Ali G interviewed generally represented the upper class, and Ali G represented kind of a weird mishmash of cultures. It said a lot about where Britain was at that time and what Britain's identity was and where it was moving. It was a generational thing. It was a sea change.
Were reactions to Ali G different in America than they were in Britain? Not from viewers, but from participants?
Not really, no. I thought they would be different, but they're about the same, when it comes to race and everything else.
One difference is that Americans are generally more polite. That is, up until the point when they snap. And then when they snap, they snap instantly and fiercely. There's just this moment, and then the switch flicks, and that's it.
Are you referring to any episodes in particular?
Actually, the one incident I remember the most wasn't with Ali G, but with the character Borat. This was in the Borat movie, in the scene that took place at the Southern dinner party. And here's an interesting incident of race playing a factor: the people at the dinner were very hospitable, very patient, very nice. But as soon as they saw a black woman enter the house, they just flipped. That was the last thing we expected.
And, actually, it was incredibly annoying. One of the big regrets of Borat was that we had written a great joke beforehand that we weren't able to do. Borat was supposed to take the prostitute into the bathroom and have sex with her while the other guests were sitting at the table eating dinner. The camera was going to be left on them as they heard sex noises coming from the bathroom.
Borat was then supposed to come out halfway through the sex act to borrow $20 from someone at the table. But as soon as the black woman entered their house, that was it — they weren't entertaining any thought of Borat staying any longer. We just never imagined that that would be the case.
You don't think the dinner guests were more upset by the fact that she was a prostitute, than that she was black?
Maybe a little of both, but probably more that she was black.
And yet, these dinner guests hardly batted an eye when Borat brought out a bag of shit.
[Laughs] True. It became a case of “We'd much rather have a bag of shit than a black woman in our house.” That was effectively the point of that scene.
How was the Borat character created?
Sacha already had a vague idea for an Eastern European — type character, but it took awhile to get it right. The first thing we did with the character was to go out to Cambridge university for a May Day event. We interviewed some Cambridge students, and as one walked away, I heard him say, “Oh, what is that — some kind of rubbish version of Ali G?” And I just thought, Oh, god.
I think we probably chose the worst place to go, since the Cambridge students were the biggest fans of Ali G. It was a dumb place to start a new character. But that's half of the process; finding the right people to interview.
We did get some good material out of the Cambridge shoot, but it was really a process of evolution. We started off knowing that we wanted Borat to be a misogynistic character. Then we brought anti-Semitism into the equation a couple of weeks down the line, and that became one of his defining characteristics. Then we brought in the wife character and the wife-hating element.
Borat has been analyzed perhaps even more than Ali G. Did you have a larger satirical purpose for this character?
Oh, yes. Completely. Borat, being from a foreign country, reflects the attitudes and the values of the society that he's going into. He comes into situations without preconceptions and, because of that, people are much happier to reveal themselves to him. So the idea is much less about Kazakhstan than it is about whatever place he happens to be in, whether it's America or Britain or wherever.
People let their guard down around Borat. They think, Here is this kind of simpleton who knows nothing about us.
Were you surprised by the success of the 2006 movie Borat?
Beyond anything I could have imagined. It was just ridiculous. We knew it was funny, but there are plenty of funny things that simply disappear into the ether. And it was a difficult film in terms of marketing. I really thought it would be one of those movies that would kind of crack the Top 10, and, hopefully, make its money back — maybe develop a cultish DVD following, like Office Space or Spinal Tap.
Terry Jones from Monty Python came to the premiere, and he turned to a friend of mine and said, “My god, I'm glad Monty Python came before and not after this.” That was astonishing to me, that one of the Pythons would say that. You think, Monty Python is saying that we've kind of re-invented the form?
The movie was criticized for making Americans look ignorant and occasionally violent.
I found that most Americans were just incredibly polite. Americans were welcoming and hospitable, and I think that's one of the edifying things that comes out of the movie. At the same time, it also shows that there are still incredible prejudices and preconceptions, as well as outdated and tasteless points of view held by people in your country.
Were there any scenes that were left out of the movie because they depicted Americans in too negative a light?
There was only one scene that was so revolting that we didn't put it in. It's now a DVD extra. There was a man in Texas who talks about the “final solution.” And I just found that so unpalatable that I thought, You know what? We can't. That ceases to be funny and entertaining; it's just horrible.
In some cases, though, it seems that most of the people with whom Borat deals aren't necessarily racist or anti-Semitic. They just want to act polite to a stranger from another land by putting up with his crazy antics.
Yes, that's true. But I think there is a vast amount of difference between somebody volunteering a certain viewpoint, and one going along with it out of politeness.
How about the owner of the antiques store? Borat came in and “accidentally” destroyed his merchandise. Would he be on the same level as an owner of a gun shop who was willing to sell a gun to Borat that was perfect for “killing Jews”?
In the former case, we found a Civil War secessionist's antique shop. We tried to find the most unsympathetic antique store we could. That didn't bother me, and he was compensated very nicely for all of the broken merchandise.
The one thing I feel was the least justifiable in the film were the bed and breakfast owners. They were the only people I felt a little t
inge of regret over. Subsequently, they were fine with it.
But, you know, there were many instances in which we stopped filming someone mid-way through an interview. If we felt they weren't worthy of Borat's treatment, then we just stopped shooting and left.
How often did that happen?
Not very often. We had excellent researchers to set up these situations who knew exactly what we were looking for and who made sure the people fit the bill effectively. So it didn't happen very often. In fact, when it did happen, we moved on quickly and found someone else who was more fitting.
Did you write the “Throw the Jew Down the Well” song that Borat performed in an Arizona bar on Da Ali G Show?
I helped to write it, yes.
That's an incredible scene to watch. When you see a woman in the audience making the sign of devil horns after Borat sings, “You must grab him by his horns,” it's just stunning.
Borat sang that song at three different bars. We weren't sure whether it would be better for the audience to be horrified or to go along with it. It seems a ludicrous thing to think about now, because it's so obvious that it's more interesting to see an audience actually enjoy a song like that.
Were the audience's reactions different each of the three times?
One audience was horrified. I'm not even sure they were horrified by what he was singing as much as by the fact that here's this strange guy on a stage, pretending to play a guitar. The other time we shot it, the audience was sort of mixed. Some were angry, some couldn't have cared less. In the final version, the audience loved it.
It must make it easy for you as a comedy writer to know that a performer like Sacha will never break character.
That's an amazing thing. Even when faced with arrest, Sacha won't break character. We were shooting a TV segment one time in Sedona, Arizona, and Borat was interviewing this New Age guy who was channeling angels through an “energized” cast-iron pyramid. The guy asked Borat to take off his clothes and lie down on a cot. The guy then began to chant and channel the angels. But while the guy was chanting Borat began to masturbate under the sheets, at which point this serene and gentle angel-channeler did that thing that Americans sometimes do — he just snapped. He went absolutely crazy. He screamed something like, “Why are you masturbating in my pyramid? This is no way to treat angels! You have contaminated my aura!”
Angels hate that.
They do. They're real sticklers for masturbating in pyramids. So we literally ran out in a Scooby-Doo way, grabbed our clothes and sprinted to our van — with its engine running, of course. We always had the engine running, just in case something like this would happen. Sacha had managed to grab his underpants and jump into the back of the van. We drove off and collected ourselves, and ended up shooting a segment at a drum circle not far away.
All of a sudden, we heard police sirens. The police stepped into the drum circle and said, “We've had complaints. We understand that you were masturbating in public and that's an offense here in Arizona, punishable by six months in prison.” The police separated the director, and then me, and then Sacha to hear our individual stories. So I gave my story. The director gave his. And then I went over to Sacha, expecting to hear him say, “Look, I'm really sorry. I was just doing this for a television show.” And instead I heard, “I do not understand what you mean ‘masturbates.’” It was like he was doing a bit, but with no cameras. There was no way this was ever going to be seen by anyone, but nonetheless he was remaining steadfast in character. The police were so frustrated by their inability to understand him that they just said, “Okay, okay. Look, if you should leave Sedona now, we won't press any charges.”
How often have you and Sacha been pulled over by the cops?
I think on the Borat film alone the official count was thirty-six.
Thirty-six times?
Thirty-six times. In a lot of cases, it was just because Borat looked Middle Eastern. The FBI came and found us in Dallas. There were five separate reports of a group of Middle Eastern men traveling around in vans.
I supposed it didn't help that Borat was also traveling with a grizzly bear chained in the back of the van.
No, that didn't help either. But Sacha stayed in character each of those thirty-six times.
What does it take as a performer to do what Sacha does? What constitution do you need to have to stand before a rodeo audience in Virginia and mangle “The Star-Spangled Banner,” knowing full well that you're likely to be nearly killed?
It's like getting into a prize fight. It's extraordinary the bravery that Sacha has. It's an amazing combination of bravery, brains, and humor. I think some performers have one or two of those things. Some have brains. Some are funny. And some are daring. But Sacha has all three. And that's a unique combination.
Because he is out there exposed.
Completely, yes. He's the one who's going to take the first punch, even if you have all the bodyguards in the world surrounding you. And they're not going to stop him from receiving that first punch or, potentially, even worse.
Has Sacha ever been punched?
No. Actually, he hasn't. He has an excellent instinct for recognizing when eyes are narrowing — when people are readying for a punch.
The Bruno character once asked a neo-Nazi if he used moisturizer. The Nazi had already said, “One more question and I will hit you.” Actually, it didn't require one more question. He just got up and was getting ready to hit Bruno. As he stood up, we saw that he had a gun, so we just ran out.
The character of Bruno really upset a lot of people, and I think it was due to the gay issue. That is literally the red flag to most Americans. They just go completely crazy. We were at a University of Alabama football game, and Bruno began to dance with the cheerleaders. The crowd went insane, and we were all chased out.
To a van with its engine running?
Yes, of course.
Was this filmed?
No. We were too busy saving our lives to film it.
What is your writing process like with Sacha? Do you write up to the point of shooting?
Yes. Right up to the point of shooting. Also, right in the middle of shooting. If I think of a funny line or idea, I'll write it on a piece of paper. The interviewee would never be able to see it, because I surreptitiously walk around with a clipboard in my hand. But Sacha will take a look at the notes, and he'll either use the suggestion or not.
How much of these filmed segments are written versus improvised?
We usually write about 75 percent to 80 percent of any given segment beforehand. We predict how people will respond, and we write to those imagined responses. We effectively navigate the whole conversation.
Do you remember when Sacha visited the rodeo in Borat? He was asked about his religion, and he says that he worships “the hawk.” We didn't foresee that question coming, but we had built up such a completely thorough background for this character — we had written so many jokes in preparation — that Sacha was ready.
We're ready for anything. Our preparation is immense for each character. You ask me any question about Borat and I'll answer it.
When did Borat lose his virginity?
Eleven.
To whom?
His sister.
What were Borat's grades in school?
He didn't go to school. He was working from the age of seven.
Who is Borat's favorite Beatle?
The dung beetle. He's never heard of the Beatles.
How deep is the background for these characters? How many pages are we talking about?
We probably have a file of scripts and jokes that extends to about three thousand pages. We write so much material for each three-minute segment. And Sacha is brilliant at keeping it all sort of filed together in his head. He's able to access any joke instantly and brilliantly. There are jokes from years ago that Sacha will be able to call on.
Does he have a photographic memory?
No, he doesn't, but he has an amazing memory for jok
es and character material. I think you'll find that most comedians never forget a joke. I think that's one thing that keeps them going — I never forget a joke I've written. I'm able to recall one from five years ago and insert it into whatever I'm writing.
How important are the other elements for these characters? For instance, how much thought goes into picking out the costumes?
A huge amount. The outfits have to appear authentic for the characters. But at the same time they have to appear humorous and interesting. We test hundreds of out-fits. We'll say, “No, that hat is too much.” Or, “No, that ring is a little too eccentric.”
Of course, with Borat it's a little different, because he's worn the same outfit for six years and not washed it. So the decision to wear that suit is difficult only because of the smell.
The suit has never been washed?
Never been washed. Sacha goes to extremes with each character. If he's playing Borat, he won't shower the night or two before an interview. It's an amazing devotion to detail. Even Borat's underwear is authentic for the character. It has a Russian label on it, so that if Borat strips and somebody catches him, his underwear won't say “Wal-Mart.”
The level of authenticity is incredible. Even the shit in the baggy was real in the Borat movie. With considerable debate, we realized it had to be real. We didn't want to take a chance and have them call Borat's bluff. We didn't want them to say, “Hold on, this is fake shit.” Then, all of a sudden, our cover would be blown. So one of us had to muster up some shit for the bag.
Who in their right mind would have called your bluff on something like that?
We weren't taking any chances.
Who provided the shit? The key grip?
It wasn't. It was a guy who worked on-set named Jason.
Did he receive a credit for his role?
Actually, he did. If you look in the credits, it says, “Mr. Baron Cohen's Feces Provided by Jason Alper.”
His parents must be very proud.
From what I heard, they are.
Do you think it'll be harder to pull off these types of stunts in the future?
It will be more difficult, but we'll somehow manage to keep it going. Hopefully, we will.