Now although he really was a force to be reckoned with, it was an amazing experience. I constantly kept saying to myself, “That’s Kirk Douglas.” He’s so mannered and so easy to imitate — all the things that a movie star is supposed to be. A person can say a couple of words [in his voice] and you know immediately “that’s Kirk Douglas.” Working with him was great. Occasionally I would get a compliment from Mr. Douglas: “Now that’s a good idea that you finally gave me.” That was the greatest compliment I could get.
The Lies Boys Tell seems like a natural fit for you at this period in your career. For the first half of the ’90s, you were making movies about family dynamics. You’d just done two movies that allowed you to draw on your relationship with your mother. Now along comes a movie that’s about a father/son relationship, where the father (played by Kirk Douglas) is part of that same stoic generation that your father came from…Coincidence?
I didn’t think about that. The Lies Boys Tell was based on a really interesting book about a father and son who don’t get along. The father decides he wants to die in the bed he was born in, and he needs to be driven across the country so he can accomplish this. He chooses his hippie/deadbeat son because they disagreed on so many things in life. On that road trip, they reconnect and both find the love that they need back in their life.
The book [by Lamar Herrin] was purchased as a vehicle for Kirk Douglas and Michael Douglas to do together. Kirk was attached and Michael was planning to do it, but then when the film was green-lighted Michael was already doing another movie. Kirk still wanted to do it, so the producers decided to look for another actor to play his son. They brought in Craig T. Nelson, and he wanted me as director. I came in, met with the producers and got the job. We had a script by Ernest Thompson, who had won the Oscar for On Golden Pond. It was a huge compliment to me that I was going to be able to direct a script from that caliber of writer, with these two wonderful actors.
Now there’s something I want to say about TV movies. A lot of people think that with TV movies you basically take whatever you’re given. I was blessed that after I did In a Child’s Name, I was able to choose from a number of projects that interested me — based on the way I was feeling at a particular time. I did go through a period of being estranged from my father. That was over by the time I made this movie, but I was still haunted by that period when I couldn’t really connect with him. So there are some things from my life that made their way into the film.
You said that when your father died, you suddenly realized that you had a lot of questions that you’d never get to ask him. That’s what this movie is all about — Craig’s character is getting an opportunity to connect with the father he lost years ago.
It’s a wish-fulfillment fantasy for me, but played out in a completely different arena. It’s a bit of a dark story because you know Dad’s going to die. But it’s also a screwball comedy character piece. Basically it’s two men struggling with their last chance to say something to each other.
I tackled that same theme when I did a play called “Bullpen,” written by Steve Kluger. It was about bunch of baseball players who are warming up for a game, and they all know that one of the guys is about to get cut from the team. They don’t know who it is, but they know one of them is going to get cut. So all these guys start opening up and saying things to one another that they’ve never had a chance to say or could be open enough to say. We had some terrific emotional scenes because it really addressed issues that are hard for guys to talk about with other guys. The characters cared for each other, but for years had done nothing but tease and rag on each other’s faults. Now they’re trying to resolve a lot of stuff, all within the period of one game.
The Lies Boys Tell had the same kind of setup. The characters know that a lot needs to be said in a short amount of time. Kirk’s character needed to talk about the way things used to be. He had ignored the way the world works for so long that he really was bothered that things had changed so much. And we needed the romance — when his character visits a woman from his past — to soften the edges. The whole thing had that homespun, nostalgic quality. I brought as much Capra to it as I could bring. If it had been a feature, I think it would have been one of those features that people really talked about — because I think you can’t help but love spending time with these characters. The best stories I have from that movie are my various adventures with Kirk.
We shot the movie on the outskirts of San Jose, and we were all staying at a hotel in downtown San Jose. Every morning I was awakened by the phone at about 6:30. “Tom, it’s Kirk. Are you up?” “Yessir, yes I am.” “Why don’t you come down here and let’s go over today’s work?” “Yessir, okay.” I’d get up, get dressed as fast as I could, splash some water on my face, try to sneak out of the room so I wouldn’t wake Nancy and the kids, and go down the hall to his room.
Kirk had already been up for two hours. He’d had breakfast and he was full of energy. He’d say, “I just want to go over today’s work. See what you think. See if you’re okay with it…as the director.” There was a thinly veiled message in that statement: You better not have a problem with it. But he was respectful enough to say, “I just want to make sure you’re okay with it.”
So I would read the other character’s lines and he’d go through the scene. He would always do it in grand Kirk Douglas style, and then say, “What do you think?” I’d say, “Yeah, it’s good.” “Any comments?” I’d make a few minor suggestions and he’d say, “No, no, no. Anything else?” “Well…” I sort of learned that I pretty much had to love it the way he gave it to me. At the end of this early morning session, he’d say, “Okay, I think it’s a good scene. Today’s going to be a good day, don’t you think?” And I’d say, “Yessir, I do.”
A few hours later, I’d arrive on set and the A.D. would say, “Mr. Douglas would like to see you in his dressing room.” I’d say okay. Go over and knock on his door. “Yeah, what’s up Kirk?” “Tom, I just thought we should go over today’s work. Go over these scenes. Just see what you think, see if you’re okay with it.” “Um…We already did…sir.” “What do you mean we already did?” “This morning, when I came into your room…” “We didn’t go over these scenes today.” “Yeah we did.” [more forceful, gritting his teeth] “We didn’t go over these scenes today.” “You’re right, sir, I’m sorry…that was yesterday, I’m so sorry. Yeah let’s go over today’s scenes.” “I just want you to take a look and see if there’s anything…” And then we’d go through the exact same routine.
I quickly realized that sometimes he had a short-term memory problem. On the other hand, he could regale you with stories about his first job, his relationship with his father, the first time he saw Michael perform at the West Side Jewish Theater…and how horrible he was when he wouldn’t give him [Michael] a compliment afterwards…all in incredible detail. But short-term things just…fell right out. At the end of the day, when it got dark and we were heading into that twelfth hour, he’d say, “Well, I guess I’m done for the day.” And I’d say, “No, we’ve got another hour and two more scenes to shoot. “ He’d say, “No, you’ve got two more scenes to shoot.” I’d say, “Well…you’re in them.” “No I’m not.” And off he would go.
Well, he was getting up at 4 a.m. every morning to go over his lines…
Yeah. He was on a set clock. That was the old Hollywood studio system routine. They didn’t work these insane eighteen-hour days like we do now. They got up early, worked on set all day, and came home at night.
I’m glad you weren’t directing him in a horror movie, or something that took place mostly at night…
He’d never do that anyway. We had to take a much later call [time], and convince him there was no way we could cheat the night scenes day-for-night. He always seemed to be surprised: “That’s a night scene — really? Isn’t there any way you could shoot it during the day?” He really did get me thinking about whether or not there was a way I could get around shooting at night.
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He would be very adamant about doing things a certain way. Normally when you have scenes where a character is in bed and other actors are standing around them, you have to keep moving things around and angling the actors to get the proper coverage. When we were shooting one of the bed scenes, I said to him, “We can get a much better angle if you could just turn this way.” “Why?” I started to explain, “Because the camera…” He stopped me and said, “Look — the money is on this face, not on the goddamn black box.” He always referred to the camera as “that goddamn black box.” He made it clear that I had to live with a slightly cockeyed angle, or move the goddamn black box — because he was not going to move. He did what felt natural to him and the black box just had to deal with it.
My biggest thrill was watching him and Craig T. Nelson play off of each other. Craig had so much respect for Kirk and he exuded an incredible love for him as an actor. They really did have fun together. I remember one day we were shooting a driving scene and they started singing “Whale of a Tail” from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, incredibly loud. I thought, It just doesn’t get any better than this.
You must have felt the same way about working with Jason Robards in your next film, Journey.
Jason was absolutely the consummate actor. No complaints, no attitude. Would do as many takes as you want. Always asking, “Are you happy?” Always had a sense of humor about the proceedings. And he could deliver these astounding moments as the character. He never planned them, but just allowed them to happen.
That also describes Robards’s character in Journey. As tough as he is, he’s willing and able to adapt and conform to whatever his grandson needs. He doesn’t expect the kid to adapt to him.
Exactly. Jason, as a New York stage-based actor, doesn’t have the kind of “movie star” persona that Kirk Douglas has. But whatever he does — whether it’s a starring role or a smaller character part — has so much emotional weight and truth. As an actor, he’s committed to every word, and he can convey so much without having to say anything . . .
It’s the experience behind the eyes.
Exactly. He’s so down to earth that you can talk to him like an average Joe, but you’ll catch a glimpse of this man who has worlds of experience. One day he went into a story about how he basically took Lauren Bacall away from Humphrey Bogart and they went off and had an affair. He always told stories like that with such simple honestly. It wasn’t bragging. He was just sharing a story that was part of his life.
Brenda Fricker was also quite unique. She had this ritual…On the first day of the shoot she came over to me and said, “There’s something I do with every director on the first day. I press a silver coin into his hand.” And she gave me this silver Irish coin. Then she said, “I have to tell you the truth. I lost me husband, I lost me boyfriend, and I only agreed to do this movie because I need the money, so I don’t know what you’re gonna get. But give me enough Guinness and I’ll get through it.” And you know, she was solid as a rock.
The best Brenda moment was with Meg Tilly. We had a scene where Meg and Brenda confront each other out in a field. We had already staged the scene, but then a big, dark cloud came overhead and we had to readjust the lighting. When Meg came to the set, she said, “Wait a minute, why are we shooting it over there?” I explained to her that we had a lighting issue. She said, “Well, I’d rather do it next to this tree.” I explained why we couldn’t, because we’d be shooting the wrong way and the light was going to change. Then I turned to my D.P. and said, “Right?” He said, “Yes, that’s going to be very harsh on her. It’s not going to make her look very good.” Meg said, “I don’t care about that. I just really feel like I need to be next to this tree.” Brenda’s standing a short distance away, smoking a cigarette, watching this situation unfold. And I’ve got a crew of eighty people standing there, listening to us go back and forth.
In all fairness, I should have talked to her first. I should have worked that out before I had the whole thing lit. And of course I was careful after that, because certain actors really do want to be part of the staging and the blocking. With this particular scene, the difference just seemed too miniscule to me. So we went on for what felt like twenty minutes. “What if?” “No.” “What if?” “No.” “Well, can’t you?” “No, we can’t.” Back and forth, back and forth. Finally, out of absolute frustration, I turned to Brenda Fricker. Here’s this Oscar Award winning actress, standing here watching the director fighting with his actress. I said, “Brenda, what do you think about this? Does this make any sense to you?” She just looked at me and said, “I’d bloody well tell her to fuck off.” Everybody broke up laughing. I looked at Meg and she said, “Okay, let’s do it.” Brenda saved my ass in that moment.
Was Meg Tilly channeling her character’s stubbornness?
Meg really knew what she wanted. Her character was a woman who kept leaving her children behind with the grandparents as she went to try and find herself. She would get involved with men for a while, then come back, then leave again with another man. She would not sacrifice her own freedom for her kids. She just had not grown up. One day, early in the process, I was talking to her about this character, and I said, “How do you think she rationalizes these decisions to herself?” And she looked at me and said, “What do you mean how do I rationalize it? Am I supposed to drag these kids with me to a motel? And if I meet a guy that night, what am I supposed to do with them then? It’s even worse if I have them there with me!” She continued with this impassioned response because she had inhabited the character 100%. She argued it so convincingly, and that’s what makes her a great actress.
When I would talk to her about her own kids, she was just as strong. She talked about how, if her kids failed in school, she’d let them fail. “It’s their responsibility,” she said. Suddenly I thought, God, she really is an amazingly strong personality and a strong mother. And after she did this movie, she decided to stop acting and become a full-time mom.
Maybe she had too much trouble juggling her life as an actress and her role as a mother. How have you managed to be both a family man and a filmmaker?
A huge part of my life is the fact that my wife is an actress. I always try to see if there’s a role for her in the movies I direct. If so it’s wonderful for both of us. Plus it helps me to treat the movie as an extension of my life. When they were little, my kids were often in the background some of some scenes. As they got older they had dialogue scenes in some of my movies. I always tried to connect my family to my work.
The first time I met Francis Ford Coppola, I asked him if he had any advice for an aspiring director. His response was, “Keep your family together. That’s the most important and the hardest thing — making your family part of this.” Obviously, I took that to heart. Once I had the success with In a Child’s Name, I built it into my contract that if someone wanted to hire me, they also had to provide first class tickets for my wife and my kids. My price was higher than some other directors because of those extra requirements, but for me it was mandatory. I turned down projects where the producers didn’t want to meet that requirement. But this decision really helped to keep our family together.
Shane learned to ride a bike on a movie set. Hannah took her first steps on a movie set. All those things are huge moments that I would have missed had I not made them part of the process. Some people say, “How can you keep your sanity when you’re constantly balancing film and a young family?” Well, there were times when it took a toll on my sanity — having to be focused at work, then focused enough to also deal with personal issues at home.
And it’s not a nine-to-five job where you get to come home at the end of the day and then deal with your family life. Everything overlaps.
Everything overlaps. If Nancy’s feeling insecure about her work that day, it’s not like I can just say, “Look, I don’t want to hear it right now”…although there were times when I did say that, and times when I wasn’t the best husband, because I was an exhausted, grumpy
director who just didn’t want to talk to anybody about anything. I just wanted to chill. And then oddly there were other times when our family issues mirrored aspects of the show, and gave me ideas at midnight that I might not have come up with if I was just sitting alone in a hotel room, going over the next day’s shot list. So there’s good and bad. But the most important part is that the family stayed together.
I remember when Hannah was very young, maybe three or four years old, she and Nancy were in downtown San Francisco. They were discussing something when suddenly Hannah looked up at the tallest skyscraper and declared, “If I fell from up there, my daddy would catch me.” She then continued her talk with Nancy, which had nothing to do with this statement. Nancy told me later that Hannah had said it as if this “fact” had suddenly entered her mind. She just shared it, then returned to the previous topic. To know someone feels that secure and trusting of you is such an indescribable feeling. The deep sense of responsibility I have for my children is a true blessing. I never want to lose that bond.
15. A chemical that causes trace amount of blood to glow green.
16. Variety writer Laurence Vittes said, “Although it is derived from a conventional miniseries formula […] In a Child’s Name is a dazzling demonstration of the television art” displaying “an unmanipulative, unblinking style reminiscent of New Wave programs like Twin Peaks.” He concludes, “Regardless of ratings, the style, production qualities and nearly flawless execution of In a Child’s Name will doubtless make it a rewarding subject for film students for years to come.”
A Strange Idea of Entertainment: Conversations with Tom McLoughlin Page 15