by Marc Maron
I go in and I don’t even have to put the phone next to my ear. My mother and stepfather’s screaming so loud about my grades, at that point, like, “You’re failing out of everything! We will come down there!” My roommate and his girlfriend can hear the whole thing. I’m thinking, “Oh, shit. I have to get my act together, because I don’t want to go back there.”
That house was, there was a lot of distrust, there was a lot of yelling. It was like, “Oh, right, I don’t want to go back, but I’m also not this student that she wants me to be. I have to figure out who I am, and I’ve got to figure out the classes I need to take to make this work so I never have to go back to that house.”
LESLIE JONES—COMEDIAN, WRITER, ACTOR
I got a scholarship to Colorado State at Fort Collins, which is not only the very whitest town, it’s the very purest. They have only the purest air there. The sun was killing me and I was still the best basketball player on the team because I was the only black player. Yes, I was the only black player. There was a light-skinned girl, but she really didn’t count, and she didn’t come to school the next year.
I didn’t know that I was going to be the only black girl on the team. I walked in and I don’t know how this is going to work out because I’m very militant too, so I’m very outspoken. When I walked into basketball practice, I walked in with a radio, so I’m the stereotype. Some of them girls had never even met a black person before. It was an adjustment for me and I was very lonely.
I was rebelling on all levels. My coach knew that I was at the point where I wanted to go home because he came to my apartment. I had my mattress in the living room because this was so new to me. If I could go back with my mind now, oh God, I would have run that place. I would have run Colorado. Do you understand me?
Marc
Why did you have your mattress in the living room?
Leslie
Because I was scared, I didn’t want to sleep in the room. There was nobody in the apartment with me. I was fucking alone and I’m scared. I’m a kid. I was like eighteen. When he came to the apartment he was like, “Oh my God, you’ve got to meet people. You’ve got to meet other black people.” He brought up the BSU on campus, the Black Student Union. “Yes, there is a building for the black people on the campus and I’m sending you there.”
If you were to talk to him today, he would say that was the worst thing I ever did because I completely became a party animal.
BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN
My folks left me in 1969, which was a little unusual. Usually you’re leaving them, but they left me in New Jersey and went to California. That sort of leaves you on your own to continue parenting yourself as best as you can. You know, your life is yours from that point on. That suited me. I was independent already. I had the band. I had my own little community that I was part of. I was making a few bucks on the weekend so I could survive. I was happily independent.
Of course, you’re only making twenty dollars. But anybody could live on twenty dollars or forty dollars in 1969, having no dependents. Anybody could do that. You ate for three dollars a day, four dollars a day was all you needed. It was just enough money to get by and have a good time on.
TERRY GROSS—RADIO HOST
My sophomore year instead of going to college I hitchhiked cross-country. My parents were very upset about it. Now that I’m the age that I am I think, “My gosh, no wonder they were so upset.” But my attitude then was, “You’re not telling me what to do. I’m an adult, you don’t control me anymore.”
DAN HARMON—DIRECTOR, WRITER, PRODUCER
For those of us who are not prodigies, who are not blowing minds by fifteen, I think it’s better to grow up in a smaller town. You have this sandbox for you. You can more easily decide at twenty-two that you want to do stand-up, or you want to be a writer.
In Milwaukee if you stood on the street corner and said, “I’m a welder,” and you did that three days in a row, sooner or later someone’s going to give you a job welding. The same went for writers.
We didn’t get paid anything, but in the five years from when I declared myself a writer, I was working for the mayor, I was doing radio shows. Within Milwaukee I was given every opportunity that I thought I wanted. If I wanted to write a play I could write a play. If I wanted to do a radio commercial for Bacardi, there was always some ad campaign that would come through and they wanted a cheap writer. It was a nice place to cut your teeth.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA
I started keeping a journal when I was around twenty. Kept it up until I went to law school, so for about seven years. Sometimes I go back and I read the stuff, and I’m still the same guy, which is good.
Stuff’s changed in the sense that stuff that was bugging you, by the time you’re fifty-three, either you worked it out or you’ve just forgiven yourself and you’ve said, “Look, this is who I am.” I think at that age you’re still trying to figure out, “Who are you? How do I live? What’s my code? What’s important to me? What’s not important to me?” You’re sorting through all kinds of contradictions.
By the time you get into your fifties, hopefully a lot of those have been resolved. You’ve come to terms and come to peace with some stuff, and then some stuff you’ve just said, “Well, you know what, that’s just who I am. I’ve got some flaws, I’ve got some strengths, and that’s okay.”
PAUL SCHEER
I think I had a good escape back then in a way. I loved TV and movies. I listened to Smothers Brothers albums. I had all my dad’s old Smothers Brothers albums. It was fun to sit and hear that. I remember even reading an article, I think it was a Smothers Brothers article where I think they had some messed-up parents. I remember thinking, “Oh. Okay. That’s cool because maybe they had messed-up parents. I have messed-up parents. It evens out.”
SEXUALITY
“An Obliteration of Self”
I’m not perfect or healthy in terms of intimacy or sex. I have been very open about myself in those areas. I’m fortunate that I am a comedian and have that freedom. It’s part of my act and my life. I have played a part in ruining a couple of marriages and I try to learn from my mistakes.
My sexuality and my private life at times have been shameful because I did things I am not necessarily proud of. That’s human. We are all flawed. That shame is personal. Adultery is bad. Making bad sexual decisions in your life can be bad, but if you are not breaking the law and you are hetero there’s some wiggle room. I am not culturally marginalized because of who I am sexually. There is no institutionalized prejudice against my desires the way there are to others.
Talking about this stuff is not always easy. Todd Glass is a friend and a great comic. I had him on the show in the early days. We talked about lots of things, but sexual orientation never came up. That’s not surprising. It doesn’t usually come up when two comics just sit around talking. Then Todd called a couple years later because he wanted to come on the show again, this time to talk about something specific that was very important to him. He wanted to come out publicly. It was the first time he said out loud that he is gay. I was honored and also nervous, because it was very personal and I never really had the conversation he wanted to have. I knew I just had to listen and be present for this life-changing discussion.
That moment for Todd happened in my garage, but it’s happened at other times and places for a lot of people who have been on my show. Dan Savage, Kevin Allison, Judy Gold, Cameron Esposito, James Adomian, and others talked with me about coming out and the impact it had on their lives.
It’s challenging for most people to be open and honest about sexuality. That’s why I’m grateful for people like Jim Norton and Margaret Cho, who spoke with complete candor about their sexual proclivities. Neil Strauss told me how his life spiraled out of control when he starting living out his sexual fantasies as a professional seducer of women. Amy Schumer told me about the trouble she has remembering good sex, while the bad experiences stay right there.
I am humbled and amazed by all
of these talks. It is an honor to listen to stories about personal victories on all fronts. Earning the ability to shamelessly have the freedom to love and have sex with who you want and honor your desires is an inspiration.
JON HAMM—ACTOR, DIRECTOR
Getting a professional shave—it seems like it should be luxurious and then you realize, that’s what ladies do with their business all the time. And that’s not luxurious at all. That’s like a procedure. God bless them, like mazel tov, but holy cow, that seems brutal. And none of them describe it as anything but a horror show.
Marc
But there was a time that I remember in my life, I’m a little older than you, where that didn’t happen. You just took what was there, it was fine.
Jon
You were good to go.
I honestly think that’s the lesson to be learned. We’re good. Whatever you got is good. We will adapt.
Marc
We will work with that. Sometimes if there’s too much attention paid to the grooming, it’s a little off-putting.
Jon
I agree. And it feels like there’s an expectation. Of some kind of performance or something that maybe I’m not prepared to put in. If you look at a car that’s clearly been souped-up, you think, I don’t know, man, this probably takes a lot of skill.
AMY SCHUMER—COMEDIAN, WRITER, ACTOR
I don’t have any physical memory of sex. I had sex yesterday. I don’t really remember it physically. I’m like, “I know I had an orgasm, because I’m not mad,” but I can’t remember my last boyfriend’s penis. Those sexual memories, unless it’s an assault, I feel like they fade away for girls.
Marc
I think if you’re remembering penises, most of the time it’s not going to be in the positive.
Amy
Exactly. I know I’ve had satisfying sex with a bunch of people, but I don’t remember it the way I remember the disappointment, you know? I remember the time I put my hand down a guy’s pants and couldn’t figure out which was the testicle and which was the penis. I’m, like, “Ball. Ball. This, does he have three balls because, oh my God, no. This is his dick. That’s terrible. His life is terrible.” Then I’m just pulling on something, hoping it’s the right one.
JONATHAN AMES—WRITER, ACTOR
I tell women, if you want to hold on to a guy, just like every three weeks or so, just tell him he’s got a beautiful cock. Beautiful or not, whatever they want to say. “I just like your cock.” Perfect. Just say it like every three weeks or so, not too often so the guy gets cocky but just enough to keep him coming back for more.
ELNA BAKER—COMEDIAN, WRITER
I was a Mormon for nine years practicing, didn’t drink, smoke, I never tried coffee. I remember the first time I drank, I just remembered thinking, “Everyone is so agreeable!” I’m making so many friends, and I didn’t know why. “Tonight is so fun!”
Marc
Did that also happen with the sex?
Elna
Oh! That’s another story. Do you know Landmark Forum?
Marc
Yeah, it’s a self-help program. You didn’t go right from Mormon to that, did you?
Elna
Well, what happened was, I was so Mormon, but I was figuring out what I wanted to do or not, and for Christmas, someone bought me a Landmark Forum course, and it was expensive. The notion of like, “What do we buy our Mormon friend? She likes cults.”
The way I stopped being Mormon was that I went to the Landmark Forum and I thought it was really ridiculous the whole time, and I was judging it in my head. Then the guy called me up from the audience and he said, “I feel like you are a cynical person about this.” He said, “Just try on for a minute the idea that there is no God, and that life is meaningless and empty and that there’s no hope.”
Marc
That guy is hilarious.
Elna
I tried on the idea. I thought of a really sad moment, when my dog died. I tried it on, and I didn’t take it off, and I left, and I gave my very first blow job. To the guy I had been dating, but I probably cried the whole time, thinking about my dead dog.
Marc
Oh my God! That’s the hottest thing I’ve ever heard. A crying blow job! Whoa!
Elna
That’s how it all went downhill. I mean, I felt so bad for the guy.
Marc
I just want to hear how he coached you through that? Like, “It’s okay, baby, you’re doing a good job.” What did he say?
Elna
“Just let the tears land.”
NICK GRIFFIN—COMEDIAN, WRITER
I’ve done so many horrible things.
Here’s a thing I did one time when I was seventeen to have sex because I didn’t know how to get girls. I was in Florida on vacation with my family and we went to some little hamburger joint, a sawdust-type place, and my parents let me stay when they left. I remember I was drinking with this girl—it was eighteen at the time to drink. My parents left, we finally leave. This girl, she’s like two years older than me and I have no … I’ve had sex a couple times but it was because I was drunk.
We’re driving home, she’s got the radio on—this is absolutely true—and The Cars come on. The song “Drive.” I said, “Turn this off,” and she says, “What? Why?” and I say, “Just turn it off, turn it off.” She turns it off and pulls over and says, “Why?” and I said, “My girlfriend died at a Cars concert.”
I said, “We went to a Cars concert, she fell down, we were on the upper deck and she fell down the stairs and never regained consciousness.” I teared up. And I swear on my mother’s life I had sex with that girl that night. That’s a horrible, horrible thing to do, isn’t it?
I’ve done it since. A lot of people die when I’m trying to have sex. When I’m trying to create some quick bond with somebody, there’s a lot of death that happens.
AMY SCHUMER
When I hear, totally honestly, when I hear a guy say “I fuck a lot of girls,” I don’t believe that anyone thinks that’s cool anymore, unless they’re young enough to believe that. I’ve got guy friends who have a lot of sex and they’re really unhappy. I don’t know any guy that’s like, “Look, life is dope, I fuck every night.” Someone hurt them. They’re sad. I don’t think that those high fives are going around anymore.
Marc
When your book The Game comes out, I saw it and I thought, “Oh, Neil Strauss is doing another investigative thing. This time about pickup artists.” Then I started hearing, “No, he’s out there speaking. He runs workshops.”
I’m like, “Wait, Neil Strauss?”
They’re like, “Yeah, he’s like this pussy magnet, this pickup artist, he’s running these workshops, and he lives in a mansion in Malibu, and there’s women all around.”
I’m like, “Whoa, wait, this is the same Neil Strauss? How did that happen?”
NEIL STRAUSS—JOURNALIST, AUTHOR
Yeah, but see, you see it like I see it. I’ll do a news show, and they’ll be like, “Here’s the biggest douche bag in the world, who just wrote the manual for men.” You see it how I see it, which is, I was just a nerdy writer dude, who somehow went immersive in this community, wrote a book about it. Then, again I really got into it in the book, it wasn’t just detached.
I just got a call from Nightline, and they’re like, “We want to write about this pickup workshop, and talk to you.” No, that book’s ten years old, I don’t want to talk about it. It doesn’t go away.
What happened was, the publisher I already did a Mötley Crüe book with called me up, and he said, “Hey, I found out about this community of guys online, they don’t have money, looks, or fame, and they’re exchanging this knowledge on how to meet, attract, seduce women. They’ve got it figured out to a science.” He’s like, “I want you to take their information, and put it into a how-to book for me.” I said, “Listen, I write for The New York Times, I’m a serious writer, it’s not something I’m interested in. But can you give me the U
RL?”
I started reading this stuff, and there were all these posts with guys, with weird names like Mystery and Candor. All these weird names. And they describe, blow by blow, everything they did. I’m like, “Oh my God, this is it.” Because when I was writing for The New York Times, I’d go to these shows, concerts, and try and meet these women. I’d have tickets to the next cool concert, and they’d come with me. I’d just always end up friendzone, no matter what I did. If I slept with someone, I would try my best to make them my girlfriend, so that I could stay with somebody for a few years and not be so lonely. Maybe a couple years’ dry spell between that. I felt like these guys had the secret.
I found out that one of these guys, named Mystery, is doing his first workshop. A workshop is he meets you out in quote, “The Field.” In a club, or a bar, and he shows you how to approach women, then has you do it.
It was six hundred dollars. I put the money in an envelope, terrified to meet this guy, and terrified that anyone would find out I work for The New York Times. Then I remember we were at the Standard Hotel. It was the cool place then, the bar there. Scott Baio was there, with this beautiful woman. Mystery walked in, started doing magic tricks, and next thing I know, Scott Baio turns to me and goes, “Is this a magic trick, or is he stealing my girlfriend?”