by Sheila Heti
BAY GARNETT I think women are forced into reassessing and reevaluating how they look when they reach forty in a way that men don’t have to. As you get older you become curious about lots of different things because you become more humble and less self-involved to an extent, and I think that goes into a lot of different areas.
CONVERSATION
OH MY GOD, WHO WEARS THAT?
ENGLISH LITERATURE STUDENT JAGODA WARDACH SPEAKS TO SHEILA HETI
SHEILA: You live in Poland but you have traveled in New York and around Canada. I wonder if you notice differences in the way people dress in these places.
JAGODA: Yeah, sure. Basically the biggest difference between Canada and the U.S. is that in the U.S. you have more access to clothes. They are much cheaper, you have better brands, and they have Marshalls everywhere. You can get really cheap and famous clothes. Here, in Toronto, I haven’t found any places where it would be possible. Even outlet stores are much more expensive. It’s reflected in the way they are dressing. In the U.S., in the streets, you see a lot of brands, even handbags. Almost everyone has at least one designer handbag. Here people have more like, I don’t know—
SHEILA: Tote bags.
JAGODA: Yeah, tote bags. Canadians have a more humble way of dressing, I think? But also in the U.S. you have huge discrepancies. You have a lot of people dressed in beautiful, luxurious clothes, but on the other hand, you have more people wearing rags. Here society is more homogeneous—people on the streets look more or less the same.
SHEILA: Does it feel different to be in a place where you see people with designer handbags beside people in rags?
JAGODA: I think in a more homogeneous place a person can feel more comfortable. Because when you are there, you are always looking up at the people who have better things, and you envy them, and you crave it.
SHEILA: How about back in Poland? How do people dress there compared with here?
JAGODA: For example, I was at the University of Toronto yesterday. When I am back at my university, if I would like people there to look like people here, my advice would be: Go to the secondhand store, pick up the most crazy things, and wear those. One girl yesterday had a blue coat with people—Eskimos—dogs, an iceberg, and a white fur hood. Oh my god, you look like a girl from kindergarten, you look like a baby!
SHEILA: You’re going to laugh, but look at this. (goes to closet) This is my mom’s coat! (pulls it out—the same coat Jagoda is describing, but green)
JAGODA: (tight voice) Oh my god, that’s great!
SHEILA: It’s a very traditional Canadian kind of coat! Put it on.
JAGODA: (laughing) Okay! That’s awesome! I really appreciate it. To allow me to wear your mum’s coat. So yes. Another girl was wearing the bottom of her pajama, I think. In Poland, you would be put on the spot instantly.
SHEILA: What do you mean?
JAGODA: People would be like, Do you feel okay? Why do you wear pajamas? People are more concerned in Poland with wearing clothes that indicate their status. It’s a bit like in the U.S.
SHEILA: Can you talk more about feeling envy in America?
JAGODA: I know a girl in New York, she works in an office, and she’s younger than me, she’s about twenty. She has a lot of clothes. She already has her Louis Vuitton handbag, so for a girl her age, in terms of fashion, it’s an accomplishment. And she told me, “Oh, but I would like to have this Chanel 2.55.” I thought, “Okay, but you are young, you still have time, you don’t have to be so stressed,” but for her it’s important. She’s from Poland, so that would elevate her position among her friends, when she would be hanging out with a Chanel 2.55 bag. Maybe it’s also a case of being an immigrant, that you want to keep up with Americans.
SHEILA: Did you buy anything in New York?
JAGODA: Every time I go there I buy some things that I’m really satisfied with, because I’m a hunter. When I went there, I saw how much they are really worth. When you can buy a Gap T-shirt from an outlet for five bucks, and you go to Gap, and you can have the same thing for twenty, you see that you don’t have to spend that much, because it’s a rip-off. You are just putting your money into the pockets of the owners of the company. So I realized that clothes are not worth a lot, so I don’t like to spend a lot on them. But I’m very concerned with the quality of the textiles, because I’m very irritated when I put something on and the quality is getting worse and worse. What else? I couldn’t be hipster—I would never be able to go hipster because I don’t like ugly things.
SHEILA: Do you think they buy things they find ugly?
JAGODA: I think so. It’s a bit like recycling. To use the things again, to give them new meaning, that’s a cultural concept, but on the other hand, American Apparel and Urban Outfitters—they are preying on young people and the need to be not that mainstream. They want to look different from their peers, but these brands are creating something artificial. I like to window-shop at those stores but I have never, ever found anything.
SHEILA: No? Why?
JAGODA: It all lacks something. The clothes make you look awkward. I found this maxidress, it was turtleneck, but with the proportions of my body I look like a nun.
SHEILA: When you say they lack something, what do you mean?
JAGODA: They were like . . . unfinished. They don’t have the twist.
SHEILA: So with the shirt you’re wearing, the twist is the little gold studs?
JAGODA: I think so. I wouldn’t buy this shirt without it.
SHEILA: Where did you get it?
JAGODA: In Bluenotes and it was cheap. When I posted a picture on Facebook, and got my flatmate’s seal of approval—I like your shirt!—I thought, Okay, that was a good choice. I wouldn’t want to wear something to be invisible in the crowd.
SHEILA: You don’t want to be invisible?
JAGODA: No no no no no. It’s not like me. Maybe I want to be anonymous, but I don’t want to be invisible. I would like people to notice me maybe?
SHEILA: You like to see them noticing you?
JAGODA: Yes—and I like to look at people. Maybe that’s what I want—this exchange. ’Cause I like to observe people. And I’m really grateful when they give me this aesthetic pleasure, when I have something nice to look at. That’s why I love public transportation—
SHEILA: Is it women or men you like getting looks from? Or both?
JAGODA: Both. I don’t really perceive it in terms of sex. I think I’m more likely to notice a beautiful woman dressed in the way I like than to see a man dressed beautifully.
SHEILA: So it’s not sexual pleasure, it’s more aesthetic.
JAGODA: I think so. Because, of course you look at the person who’s wearing this clothes, but this pleasure is made of some items. When you like the shoes, you look at the shoes. You also look at the face of the person and at his or her body, but it’s only a tool in conducting this message.
SHEILA: Do you try to show things about what your body is like when you dress?
JAGODA: Sometimes. I used to be plump, to put it straight. So when I lose some weight or when I exercise a lot, I like to show how my body looks. But normally I use clothes to hide, to deceive people. Maybe that’s why I like clothes so much—because I’m never satisfied with how I look without them.
SHEILA: Do you like lingerie?
JAGODA: Yes. My mum, she says, “Oh my god, kid, you’re sick in the mind! You have so many bras in your closet!” But I like them! The same is true in the case of swimsuits. I really have a lot of them. I have pieces—for instance, only the bottom and not the top part, because in the U.S. a couple of years ago, I think it was at the beginning of the crisis, you could buy a lot of things very cheap. So I managed to buy pieces from Calvin Klein and Victoria’s Secret for one dollar. They were so beautiful that I couldn’t help it, and I was buying them, hoping I will find something similar, just to make a whole one. So now I have a bottom from Victoria’s Secret with gold things, or I have one from Juicy Couture with beautiful hearts—and even if I find
the top in normal, regular stores, it will be okay because I paid just one dollar for the bottom. But it never happened. So I have a huge box in my closet with those pieces that I will never wear.
SHEILA: Are you going to throw them out?
JAGODA: No no. They can stay, because I’m fortunate enough that I have a room at my parents’ house and I also have my flat in the city where I’m staying, so I have two closets. Talking about clothes, when my grandmother was living in the U.S., she was sending us parcels. I was twelve years old. I was excited and so looking forward to some nice clothes to show off at school, but every time she was sending something I was so heartbroken, because it was so her, it was completely her grandma style, and when I was opening the parcel, it was like, I don’t know, a red shirt with a glittering star, oh my god, who wears that? And my mom was like, You don’t need clothes, because Grandma is sending them to us.
SHEILA: So you had to wear your grandma’s stuff?
JAGODA: Yeah, basically. I was not like the rest of my teenage colleagues that were so concerned with designer clothes, that were making a drama at home for their parents just to buy something. I was more peaceful. I was like, Okay, I will suffer in silence. But it’s funny. Some of these odd things my grandma was sending, at the beginning I found them crap, but now some of them, they are real gems. Like the white leather pencil skirt? It’s gorgeous. Unfortunately, I’m not that skinny to wear it, but if I were, I would definitely do that now. . . . It sometimes doesn’t seem a good thing to talk about clothes.
SHEILA: Because people will have the impression—
JAGODA: Yes, that I’m stupid, and I don’t have any other things in my life to think of. It’s a general view that you should be more concerned with the inside of you than the outside layer. People probably think I’m stupid and I just have this outer layer and I don’t have anything inside my head. I don’t know, maybe it’s just because I was brought up in a Catholic country, so this is a part of their thinking, that you shouldn’t show off and be concerned about worldly things. When you think about your clothes, you’re automatically thinking about yourself, and you are evil. I don’t know.
SURVEY Please describe your mind.
Right now especially, my mind is mush.—RANDI RIVERA • Romantic.—EMILY RABOTEAU • High levels of comprehension but lower levels of production.—GLORIA ARMINIO • I would like to think of myself as intelligent and quick. I am very analytical, and 75% of the time, I turn things into humor.—ALEXANDRA KERN • I have a tendency to favor my imagination, and it can lead me to worry sometimes. Worry is the dark side of the imagination. I counter the neurosis with work and practicing art, cooking, fencing, and other activities.—KARIMA CAMMELL • I am always thinking of the next thing that needs to be done. I am extraordinarily efficient but not especially compassionate. I generally believe, however, that most people are alike and this gives me comfort. I am able to get through difficult situations by remembering “This too shall pass.”—CAITLIN VAN DUSEN • Works well most of the time.—JEANIE KIMBER • Pessimistic, sarcastic, sensitive, paranoid.—ANNE LAURENCE GOLLION • Healing from an emotional two years of loss with my mother’s passing and a benign tumor that wreaked havoc on me that just so happened to be in my mouth.—CARLA DU PREE • My mother says I am “very strong-minded.”—JODIE YOUNG • My mind feels feminine and masculine at different times.—FELIZ LUCIA MOLINA • Troubled.—GABRIELLE BELL • My mind is what I turn to and take seriously.—ANNIKA WAHLSTRÖM • My mind is clear and I know what I want.—GAIL O’HARA • I am a sensitive and creative person with sometimes-occurring dark thoughts that I mostly manage to spit away with the help of my positive and optimistic cells.—GINTARE PARULYTE • I have really bad memory due to medication.—IMOGEN DONATO • I like my mind about as much as I like my body; I’m aware of my limitations as well my strengths. I’ve been lucky to be able to play to my strengths. —FAITH HARDEN • Curious, bright, searching.—RAISEL BRUNO • Peaceful, quiet, aware, focused on the moment.—JESSICA JOHNSON • Intelligent. Anxious. Careful. Ambitious.—JILL GALLAGHER • Analytical and poetic.—CYRENA LEE • Content. I’ve just had a very busy month and don’t have anything to plan or do for a few weeks.—CRYSTAL MORTGENTALER • I am very content with my life, I feel blessed to have a very loving and sweet marriage, good health, a good job, and close friends and a terrific family. I look forward to retirement in the next couple of years and hope to volunteer and help others.—DENISE MINEO • My ego is very easily inflated and deflated, and I have OCD/body dysmorphic tendencies I struggle to keep under control. I have high standards for my understanding and analysis of the world. I try to be ever aware of what’s going on inside me so that I can always be in the process of improving. It’s all interesting to me. —AMANDA M. • Chaotic, lazy.—EVELIJN MARTINIUS • Sound.—CHARLOTTE BOYD
PROJECT
THE OUTFIT IN THE PHOTOGRAPH | II
DENISE MINEO (RIGHT): I remember feeling very grown-up on my tenth birthday. It was 1962 and our family was celebrating my twin brother’s and my birthday by dining at a classic old New Orleans Creole restaurant. We dressed up for the occasion. I thought I was mighty cute and I just loved that dress. The fact that it was sewn by my mom was fine, that was the norm. Paired with a pretty, white blouse, I felt very stylish, at least by my standards. And those shoes—two-tone, pointy, and very modern, even with socks. I had a matching two-tone purse to round out the ensemble. I wasn’t dressed like a little girl anymore. My aunt Kate is standing next to me. We were in awe of her—she had such confidence and she dressed very stylishly, even if her clothes were not expensive. She was a rebel, a free spirit, a divorcée. Her clothes were form-fitting and she wasn’t at all afraid to show off her best assets. She used Maybelline cake mascara, drew on her eyebrows, then completed the look with bright red lipstick.
COLLECTION
KRISTIN GORE’s gum chewed over the course of one week
SURVEY
SHOPPING
“I don’t ‘go shopping.’ If possible, I happen upon things to wear in more interesting ways.” —MOLLY MURRAY
CAMILLA GIBB I have a bad habit of shopping after therapy. I don’t know if this influences the choices I make, but I like that time to wander alone, idly scanning racks and shelves, meditating. The only problem with this is that I have recently started psychoanalysis, which means being on the couch a minimum of three times a week. That’s a lot of shopping.
ALEXI CHISLER I can get very stressed out and confused when I’m shopping. This can result in my buying things I later realize I don’t like. So a rule I have is that I go into a store only if I like the majority of the clothes they have in the window. I have to trust their “curation” of clothing, so that even if I am disoriented inside the store, I can still come out with something good.
ALISSA NUTTING For many years, I was addicted to shopping. I’d shop until my car was full of clothing, my closets overflowing, my bank account empty and my credit cards maxed. I did this for the better part of a decade and tried and failed to quit on several occasions. It took therapy and a twelve-step support group for me to stop shopping compulsively.
EILEEN MYLES I’ve had a lot more success shopping when someone else is shopping or when I’m in a rush to go somewhere and shouldn’t look. I like shopping out of the peri-pheral vision.
MARSHA COURNEYA When I have bought a dress to wear to a gala or a party, I can’t help feeling embarrassed by the idea that I am excited enough or nervous enough to use clothes as a way to cast a spell over myself, so that I might feel special. When I look at photos of myself wearing something I bought especially for an occasion, it’s hard because I have to relive the memory of things not going as I had hoped, because they never do.
CLAIRE CAMERON My desire for nice clothes feels at odds with the financial needs of my family. I’ve since thought, Fuck that.
AURORA SHIMSHAK Once in a while, my boyfriend’s mom takes me shopping. I love shopping with her. It’s not completely guilt-free. There’s a bit of a
nagging in my stomach that probably comes from the fact that I’m taking money she could be spending on herself. But it’s still much lighter than spending my own money on clothes. Recently, I figured out that she likes to see things after I try them on. She’s quite generous with compliments. Yes! Let’s get that. How often do you find a perfect fit like that? Shopping with her gives me a high that lasts for hours.
ANNETTE CARGIOLI I made a decision this year to not shop for clothing and to use what I have.
AMANDA STERN More often than not, I do my best shopping off other people. I often find myself asking women where they got their shoes or their bag, willfully ignoring that how good it looks on them is not indicative of how it will look on me. I want the item, as much as I want the specific way it drapes on their body, or as much as I just want their body, or their way. I shop based on the false premise of being granted an entire promise, and I am almost always disappointed when the promise falls short.
CASSANDRA LEVEILLE Being working poor, I never have a ton of money or opportunities to shop. When I do have money, a great resource has been finding fashion blogs that link to good Etsy shops. I usually wait until there are sales, or I use coupon codes, which many shops give to customers for their first order. I feel like I buy items only a couple of times a year.
ESTELLE TANG I’m weaning myself off cheap and cheerful purchases made on sunny days filled with ice cream and sheer delight, or miserable rainy evenings after a shitty day. These are quick, guilt-free fixes I justify to myself as not breaking the bank. But the pale yellow cardigan I never wore, the two cheap cardigans in the same cut, and the shirtdress that never quite sat properly around my hips are all sobering reminders that quick and thoughtless buys are rarely a good idea.