MJT: What do you think of the liberal era before Nasser came to power in 1952? When you look back on that, does it look better than the current era or worse?
Essam el-Erian: The Bush administration invaded Afghanistan, and it failed. You’re facing disaster there now and don’t know how to escape. [Laughs.] A safe escape from Afghanistan will just add another disaster added to the disaster of the occupation. And the Bush administration tried to create a democratic model in Iraq. It also brought a disaster not only to the Iraqi people but to the nation of America and the values of America. And to the economy of America. [Laughs.]
This was, of course, not in the American interest, but in the interest of some people who are governing the think tanks and the media. Now that Obama is facing this disaster, the Republicans are putting this burden on his shoulders. This is a big lie. He inherited this.
It is time for you to respect others, to respect your values and to be a real democracy. Respect multiplicity in the world. We are different. This county is different from Saudi Arabia. It is different from America and the U.K. This is the most important lesson of the Egyptian and Arab revolutions. You need to respect their choice. Don’t intervene in their domestic affairs. Treat them as equals, as human beings, not as an oil field. [Laughs.] People are not going to drink oil.
I hope after the success of the revolution, if the revolution has an impact in Saudi Arabia, that the Saudis will only produce the oil they need, not what you need. If they keep their own oil for their own future generations, that will teach the Americans to respect others and not to insult the Saudis and the Arabs.
Armin Rosen: How are Americans insulting the Saudis?
Essam el-Erian: Yes. Yes. Yes. I’ll give you some examples. Your administrations—while your people are silent—have been supporting tyrants and dictators all over the Islamic world for more than 60 years.
MJT: The government has, yes.
Essam el-Erian: You supported the Shah of Iran. You supported Suharto, the generals in Pakistan, all Arab leaders.
MJT: You do understand that was government policy.
Essam el-Erian: Yes, but the American government is an elected one. You don’t only vote on your taxes. You also vote for foreign affairs.
MJT: During our election campaigns, we don’t get the choice between supporting or not supporting Mubarak.
Essam el-Erian: You insult Arab people.
MJT: You insult Americans.
Essam el-Erian: No.
MJT: There is a lot of anti-American sentiment in Egypt, especially from you.
Essam el-Erian: Please respect my intelligence. When you vote for Republicans who create wars in the Arab world, and when a million people take to the streets while having no effect on the administration, what can you call this?
The second thing, of course, and you know this from media reports and human-rights organizations, is that people are tortured and killed on American orders. The third is that you never respect the rights of Palestinians. You never give equal opportunities to Palestinians and Zionists. All the time you are biased. You’re biased now and will be in the future. You’re biased.
Hillary Clinton just said Bashar al-Assad is not important to Americans anymore. Before this declaration, he was important! You supported him! People here are intelligent. They consider every word.
How can people here explain or understand the last decision in Congress which prevents Mr. Obama from training the revolutionaries in Libya?
MJT: What do you think about what’s going on over there?
Essam el-Erian: Look, sir. It’s a big game. You cannot convince me that the American administration is sticking to American values. Qaddafi is your man.
MJT: He’s our man?
Essam el-Erian: Yes.
MJT: Now, wait a minute.
Essam el-Erian: Yes.
Armin Rosen: He bombed a disco full of Americans.
MJT: He has been an anti-American dictator since the day he took power.
Essam el-Erian: French people are now having secret talks with Qaddafi and his son. [Laughs.]
MJT: We are not French.
Essam el-Erian: You neglected everything about Qaddafi when he declared that he’d get rid of so-called nuclear weapons. You neglected to think about him killing people and destroying his country. Your administration neglected everything. So how can I understand that Qaddafi was behind the attack over Lockerbie, Scotland? Megrahi [the supposed mastermind of the attack] is still living in Libya and is a very big symbol of the hypocrisy of the West. All the West.
MJT: I want to back up for a second. You said that Qaddafi is our man because we restored relations with Libya. Is that all it takes for a dictator to be “our man”? That we have diplomatic relations?
Essam el-Erian: Sir. Who protected Qaddafi’s military coup d’état? Who protected him? You had all this military power. You could have stopped him.
Who protects all the dictators of the Arab world? Your men are there everywhere, from the king of Morocco to the king of Bahrain. They are your men.
MJT: The king of Bahrain is an American ally, but Qaddafi was never an ally.
Essam el-Erian: These men represent foreign interests. I study history. You might not be convinced by what I say, but this will all be clear after secrets become available in documents. Some people here in this country believe Nasser was protected by the Americans. You advised Mubarak during this revolution to stay in power by making reforms.
Armin Rosen: What sort of relations would you like to see Egypt have with the United States?
Essam el-Erian: Ordinary relations. I think Americans are on the same track. And the world is not America. The world is very wide. We have Africa, we have Asia, we have the Arab world, we have Moscow, we have India. All those are ready to have ordinary relations with the Arab world. China is now the big purchaser of oil in the Sudan.
Armin Rosen: The government in Sudan is far more oppressive than the government in Libya.
Essam el-Erian: No. No. No. Look, sir. China, Iran and France are the three players in Africa. America is now out. And the Arab world may be lost to America if it doesn’t revise its strategy. It may be lost. All the Arab world. This American attempt to stop the revolution in Syria and Libya and Yemen is going to fail.
MJT: Now, wait just a minute.
Armin Rosen: You think it’s okay for China to buy oil from Sudan, but it’s not okay for the U.S. to re-establish ties with Qaddafi after he gave up his nuclear-weapons program? Isn’t that a double standard?
Essam el-Erian: China’s interests are economic only. It doesn’t link economics and politics. All your candidates say they will transfer your embassy from Tel Aviv to al-Quds [Jerusalem].
MJT: They always say that, but they never do it.
Essam el-Erian: But what’s the message to the Arab world? This is very dangerous for the image of Americans. You are biased!
MJT: Yeah, but you’re biased too. You guys are completely biased toward the Palestinians.
Essam el-Erian: When congressmen stood up 30 times to salute Netanyahu when he gave his speech in the Congress, it destroyed any dream for peace.
MJT: Why should Americans be unbiased, but it’s okay for you to be biased?
Essam el-Erian: We are fighting for and defending our interests.
MJT: So are we. That’s how the world works.
Essam el-Erian: This is our right.
Can you imagine a democratic Syria or a democratic Jordan assimilating Palestinians in their lands? They cannot. It is a matter of time. Those people must go back [to Israel]. You prevent Mexicans by force from secret immigration.
MJT: Only illegal immigrants, not legal immigrants.
Essam el-Erian: This is illegal. We cannot have noncitizens in our lands. They take our jobs.
MJT: Palestinian refugees have been living in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan for more than 60 years.
Essam el-Erian: No! Even if they’ve been there for 200 years, they must go back [
to Israel].
MJT: What about all the Jews in Israel that got thrown out of places like Baghdad?
Essam el-Erian: Let them live together.
MJT: Should they go back to Baghdad?
Essam el-Erian: Let them live together. Why not? Live together.
MJT: They can’t live together, because they don’t like each other.
Essam el-Erian: What about the Jews who came from Russia? Why do you put pressure on Syrian people, or Lebanese people, to compensate and tolerate Palestinians? You never put any pressure on Israel to compensate or tolerate Palestinians. Is this biased or not biased?
MJT: It’s biased, but why should we not be biased and not stick by our allies, while you are biased and stick by your allies? That’s just how the world works. Look, I don’t expect Egyptians to suddenly like Israel, so why …
Essam el-Erian: Our only war is the war for democracy. Those guys in Tahrir Square and Syria and Yemen are struggling for democracy. When democracy flourishes, it will solve everything, including the conflict with Israel. Democracy will solve it, peacefully, without bloodshed. We need democracy and freedom. These are human values. Are we an exception? We are not an exception!
You spend $40 million here to promote democracy. This was declared in the Congress. This is good. But you can keep this for yourselves, and we can build our democracy without any aid.
MJT: You would rather that Americans who support Egyptian democracy not help you?
Essam el-Erian: Keep your money for poor Americans. It’s better for you.
MJT: Well, a lot of Americans would agree with you about that.
Essam el-Erian: You have trouble with your health care system. Sick people in America need this money. It would be good for them. And good for us.
Hosni Mubarak is Egyptian. If we dislike him, we will put him on trial. I was tortured in prison by Hosni Mubarak, but I am for giving him a fair trial and the opportunity to defend himself. I faced a military trial but never called for a military trial for Hosni Mubarak. You know why he won’t face international charges? Because he will be asked about everything. And when he says everything, it will destroy the images of many leaders around the world. Your leaders are against a trial for Hosni Mubarak. There will be big surprises when we try Hosni Mubarak. Israel will send a spy to kill him before the trial! [Laughs.] We want to know why a former Israeli minister described Mubarak as a “treasure.”
Please, if you want to describe what is going on in Egypt and the Arab world, it is a big change. No power can stop this change because it’s the will of the people, the power of the people. People want to live in peace, not in war, in independent democratic states, preserving their human dignity, keeping their wealth for themselves and future demonstrations.
MJT: Do you think they’ll win in Syria? Assad is killing lots of people.
Essam el-Erian: Others killed even more. His father killed 20,000 people in one day in Hama. Change can reach everyplace. The kings of Morocco and Jordan are making reforms.
MJT: What do you think of the Saudi government?
Essam el-Erian: They are intelligent. Kings are more intelligent than tyrants. They have the wealth and the power. If they give some power to the people, they keep the wealth. And this is good.
I hope you transmit the truth to the American people and also advise politicians that they must revise their strategy.
MJT: What would you like American foreign policy to look like?
Essam el-Erian: Of course, that is up to Americans. You should advise them. I cannot advise them. You in the media play a very important role.
MJT: A little role.
Essam el-Erian: The media and think tanks play a very important role. You created a ghost, a monster, this terrorism. You magnify terrorism, and we face its vengeance. You in the media link every Arab, every Muslim, to terrorists. We were pushed to take off our shoes in your airports.
MJT: I have to take off my shoes too.
Essam el-Erian: Why?
MJT: I don’t like it either.
Essam el-Erian: You make people live in terror.
MJT: Who does?
Essam el-Erian: You do. The media.
MJT: Who is living in terror?
Essam el-Erian: Your politicians. Your media. Your media.
MJT: We don’t live in terror. I don’t know a single person in the media who lives in terror.
Essam el-Erian: Can you answer one question? Why don’t we hear about trials for September 11?
MJT: Because the people who did it are dead. They killed themselves in the towers.
Armin Rosen: There was a civilian trial.
Essam el-Erian: Four thousand innocent people were killed, and there has been no trial.
MJT: That’s because the people who did it are dead.
Essam el-Erian: Nobody was put in a cage to face a trial.
MJT: They were on the planes. They blew themselves up in the towers.
Essam el-Erian: No. Who was behind it?
MJT: Osama bin Laden. And we just killed him too.
Essam el-Erian: We know you have about 600 people in Guantánamo Bay. None of them have faced trials. Why? This is a very big mystery.
MJT: Well, what do you think happened? What’s your theory?
Essam el-Erian: And another 4,000 Americans were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have almost 10,000 innocent Americans killed. Never mind the millions killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. You never put anyone on trial. Who is behind all this? Who made the conspiracy? Is Osama bin Laden alone? Who is behind Osama bin Laden?
Armin Rosen: Who do you think is behind Osama bin Laden?
Essam el-Erian: I want to know!
MJT: What’s your theory?
Essam el-Erian: You have the documents now that Osama bin Laden is dead.
MJT: What’s your theory?
Essam el-Erian: I don’t know.
MJT: You have a theory.
Essam el-Erian: I want to know. That is the question.
MJT: Everybody has a theory. What’s yours?
Essam el-Erian: Why 10,000 Americans killed? Why? Without any investigation.
MJT: Why does it have to be a conspiracy? It really isn’t that complicated.
Essam el-Erian: Is Osama bin Laden alone, or is somebody with him?
MJT: Why does anyone have to be behind Osama bin Laden?
Essam el-Erian: This must be investigated in America! There is this case in the U.K. about hacked telephones—160 news people were fired.
MJT: [Laughs.] That has nothing to do with Osama bin Laden.
Essam el-Erian: A very old newspaper was closed. There was no drop of blood. If 10,000 Americans don’t expect to have a full investigation about the killings in New York, Iraq and Afghanistan, we want to know.
MJT: Look, it really isn’t that complicated. Osama bin Laden had some support in Saudi Arabia and from Pakistan’s ISI.
Essam el-Erian: Look, sir. It is not enough that Osama bin Laden admitted in public that he did it. Osama bin Laden can’t do it alone.
MJT: He had some support in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Essam el-Erian: If you’re saying Saddam Hussein supported him, it’s a lie. Colin Powell said Saddam Hussein had biological weapons, but this was a lie. Colin Powell now regrets this.
We want to know.
MJT: What is it that you don’t know?
Essam el-Erian: You tell me.
MJT: This isn’t complicated.
Essam el-Erian: Yes, it’s complicated. I agree!
MJT: No. It’s not complicated.
Essam el-Erian: I am a physician. If a lady comes to me and suffers from any complaint, I will investigate. A complicated case must be fully investigated.
It has been 10 years. When will Americans will know the truth about who killed 10,000 people?
MJT: The American people are satisfied that we know who did it.
Essam el-Erian: No.
MJT: Yes, we are.
Essam el-Erian: No.
MJT: You aren’t, but we are.
Essam el-Erian: The people cannot forget. The victims and their families will face everyone who keeps silent and protects the real people who were behind this and have drawn a curtain over the truth.
MJT: Who do you think did it? You think the United States government did it?
Essam el-Erian: The American people faced Joe McCarthy. And there were the Chinese people after the Cultural Revolution.
MJT: Are you suggesting the United States government was behind 9/11?
Essam el-Erian: Nobody knows! I don’t know.
Armin Rosen: Let me suggest …
Essam el-Erian: You are very naive people.
MJT: I’m not naive. I do this for a living.
Essam el-Erian: So Osama bin Laden admits he’s the murderer. You gave him $25 million, then you killed him, so fine, now the file is closed. For me, it is not closed.
Armin Rosen: Let me be even more blunt than Michael. There is a clear line between the founders of the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideology that inspires al-Qaeda.
MJT: That’s absolutely true.
Armin Rosen: Is there some queasiness on your part in blaming 9/11 solely on him as opposed to the dictators that you believe the U.S. supports?
Essam el-Erian: Of course. We are victims of 9/11.
MJT: Ayman al-Zawahiri was a member of your organization.
Essam el-Erian: This region [pounds table] is a victim of 9/11. This region was put under dictatorship because we were accused as a nation of being behind 9/11.
MJT: Nobody thinks Egypt committed 9/11.
Essam el-Erian: Mohammed Atta is from Egypt.
MJT: Yes, he’s from Egypt, but he himself is not Egypt.
Essam el-Erian: We were all called criminals. The entire nation.
MJT: Nobody thinks that.
Essam el-Erian: Yes. For 10 years. Why do you support those dictatorships that torture us in our prisons?
Armin Rosen: Do you see any relation between the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood and al-Qaeda? There is a history there.
Essam el-Erian: Al-Qaeda has been against the Muslim Brotherhood all its life.
MJT: That’s true, but Ayman al-Zawahiri was once a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Essam el-Erian: I was surprised when a congressman visited me last week and said it is well known in America that the Muslim Brotherhood is linked to al-Qaeda.
Tower of the Sun: Stories From the Middle East and North Africa Page 18