Walter opened his Bible, then said to Jobran, “We usually use the King James Version of the Bible in our door-to-door work, since it is the most popular translation. However, there may be cases where a modern translation, such as our New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures that Lamonte is using, will be more helpful.” Walter continued, “In the King James Version of the Christian Greek Scriptures, the word that is translated into English as ‘spirit’ is the word pneuma, which is the same as the word ruach in the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures. It basically means the invisible life-force, or vital spark, which animates the body. It can be compared to electricity, which can be used to power a variety of different types of machines. The spirit itself has no personality, and it cannot think. Animals as well as men are spoken of as in the Bible as having a spirit. When a person dies, his spirit does not go on existing in some other realm; rather, as Ecclesiastes 12:7 says, this spirit departs from us and returns to Jehovah, who gave it to us. That is why James 2:26 says that ‘the body without the spirit is dead.’” Walter held his Bible out to Jobran to allow him to read it for himself, but Jobran shook his head and said, “That’s not necessary; I take it that you will not misquote the Bible.”
Lamonte turned in his Bible, and said, “Walter has already quoted from the biblical Book of Ecclesiastes; that book contains many important truths on this subject. Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that ‘the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.’ 9:10 says ‘there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.’ Sheol is the Hebrew word usually translated ‘grave’ or ‘pit’ in the King James Version. It also says that ‘there is no superiority of the man over the beast…All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.’” (3:19-21)
“So you see,” Walter concluded, “Death is a state of nonexistence. Psalm
146:4 says that when a person dies, ‘his breath—the Hebrew is ruach, or spirit— goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.’ When Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, Jehovah God said that Adam would ‘return to the ground’; that is, at death Adam would once again be nonexistent. His punishment was death—the absence of life—not a transfer over to some kind of ‘heavenly’ or ‘hellish’ realm.”
Lamonte added, “It was Satan—not Jehovah—who told Eve in the Garden of Eden that she would not die. (Gen 3:4) But of course, she did die.”
Jobran interrupted, and said, “But since you believe that we will be able to ‘live forever in Paradise on Earth,’ you obviously believe in some kind of life after death, even if you don’t believe that we have immortal souls.”
Walter nodded, then explained patiently, “Once the life-force is gone from a person, only Jehovah has the ability to restore it to him. And he will, because the Bible teaches that there will be a resurrection of the dead, even as Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus.”
Lamonte interjected, “If Lazarus had been in Heaven after his death, what would be the point of resurrecting him to life again?” and he laughed. “Wouldn’t he be kind of mad at Jesus, for making him leave Heaven to return to earth?”
Jobran nodded, and said, “So basically, you teach what the Seventh-Day Adventists teach—the doctrine of ‘Soul Sleep’; that is, that there is no soul, and the individual dies or ‘sleeps’ until and unless he or she is raised again, at the resurrection of the dead. They also teach the annihilation of the wicked, as well.”
Both Walter and Lamonte looked at each other. Walter spoke up first, saying solemnly, “We do not teach doctrines created by men, whether they be called ‘Soul Sleep,’ the ‘Trinity,’ or whatever. We just believe what the Bible teaches.”
Lamonte added, “I actually have an aunt and some cousins that are Adventists. I’ve tried to talk these things over with her, but they base so many of their doctrines upon the teachings of Ellen G. White—whom they consider to be a prophetic messenger to their church—rather than the Bible, that it’s difficult. For example, they believe that Jesus, ever since I think it’s 1844, is carrying on something they call the ‘Investigative Judgment’ until he comes again, determining who is entitled to the benefits of his atonement; the whole thing is completely unbiblical. They also teach that Christians must keep the Jewish Sabbath, even though the Sabbath was never enjoined as an observance for Christians—the only Scripturally commanded event is the Lord’s Evening Meal, celebrated once a year on Nisan 14 of the Jewish calendar. They also tend to follow the Mosaic dietary laws, and some of them forbid eating meat and drinking wine, whereas the Bible commands none of these for Christians. The Adventists also teach that all men, good and evil, are raised at the end of the millennium, and the righteous go to Heaven, and the evil ones are annihilated—so that the evil people are raised up just in order to turn around and be destroyed.” He smiled, shaking his head, then added, “That isn’t what we teach at all.”
“In your teaching, then, who will be resurrected?” Jobran asked.
Walter said, “Acts 24:15 says that, ‘There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.’ First among the righteous will be those who have pursued a righteous course of living, as Jehovah’s servants on Earth. They consist of exactly 144,000 anointed Christians, who, when resurrected to the heavens, will reign with Christ as kings and priests, and as royal judges with Jesus.”
Lamonte burst in, with enthusiasm, saying, “But there will also be a ‘great crowd’ that is resurrected, in addition to the 144,000. And besides these, there are millions of other people have died without showing whether or not they would comply with Jehovah’s righteous standards—either because they didn’t know them, or because the temptations of this world were too great for them. They too will be resurrected!”
“But, in your understanding, this resurrection won’t take place for some time, right?” Jobran asked. “Not until after the End Times, or ‘Last Days’?”
“That’s correct!” Lamonte said with unfeigned excitement. “But that is probably the most thrilling thing that we teach: the Last Days are almost upon us! When you look at this world system, you see all the signs: increasing wars; global famine; ecological disaster; rampant lawlessness, such as crime and drug abuse; people more concerned about material things than about the things of Jehovah. Obviously, this present system of things can’t go on much longer.”
Walter continued, “The Revelation to John tells us in chapters 15 and 16 that there has been and will continue to be a series of plagues, which are Jehovah’s judgments upon this world system. These are figurative plagues upon this world system, which have been going on for decades. But in the end, Babylon the Great—the Revelation’s name for the worldwide religious entity that is part of Satan’s organization—as well as the nations that are gathered in opposition to Jehovah God will be destroyed, in the final plague of Jehovah. This is known as Armageddon, which is not a literal place, but instead refers to the nations being gathered for execution by Jehovah and his righteous armies in heaven. Jehovah’s Christian servants on earth will not participate in this fighting.”
“Don’t you teach that Babylon the Great is the Roman Catholic Church, or something like that?” Jobran asked. “Your books seem to take a very staunch anti-Catholic stance.”
Walter replied, “Actually, the ‘great harlot’—although it certainly includes the Roman Catholic Church—is the entire world empire of false religion. Of course, the Roman Church is certainly a prominent part of Babylon the Great, since they are the only ones that claim that claim that their ‘Pope’ is the direct successor of the apostle Peter.”
Lamonte said, “It includes all of so-called ‘Christendom,’ which teaches such unbiblical doctrines such as the Trinity; prayer for the dead; the immortality of the soul; kneeling before idols, and many other beliefs that were taken over from Or
iental religions, and are not based on the Bible.”
Jobran asked, “As I recall, you don’t believe in Hell, right? That is, in a place of eternal torment for the wicked?”
Both Walter and Lamonte shared a hearty laugh. Lamonte said, in a reproving tone, “The Bible teaches that ‘God is love.’ (1 Jn 4:8) Would a loving God create a fiery place of torment, to torture forever those who didn’t obey Him during their few years on Earth?”
Jobran threw up his hands in mock surrender. “Look—I didn’t invent the concept. But other Christians say the idea comes from the Bible.” He went to a bookshelf and returned with a copy of the Bible. Thumbing through it, he said, “For example, didn’t Jesus himself frequently talk about a place he called ‘Hell,’ where supposedly ‘the worm never dies, and the fire never goes out?’” (Mk. 9:44-46)
Walter nodded his head and smiled, and said, “Ah, the Christian Greek Scriptures do talk about a place called Gehenna, in the Greek. Gehenna means ‘Vallley of Hinnom,’ and was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, in Jesus’ time. Fires continually burned at this dump, and worms or maggots would feed on the garbage—including dead bodies—that were cast in there. But the Bible never speaks of Gehenna as being a place of conscious suffering, or torment. Quite the contrary, the image of it as a disposal place for dead bodies supports the notion that the dead are destroyed, not kept alive and tormented.”
Finding a passage he was looking for, Jobran asks, “You were talking about the Book of Revelation; aren’t the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet supposed to eventually be ‘tormented day and night, for ever and ever’ in a lake of fire and brimstone? (Rev 20:10) And aren’t wicked people also supposed to be cast into this lake? (20:15)”
Patiently, Walter explained, “The Revelation of John is difficult to interpret because it uses symbolic language, and it is not written in a strict chronological order. Now, since we know that the Bible teaches that the dead are not conscious of anything, obviously such people cannot be literally tormented in a lake of fire. In fact, the very idea of eternal fiery torment is absurd.”
Lamonte nodded his head vigorously, and said, “Really! I mean, when things burn, don’t they get all burned up? How could something literally be ‘burning’ for all of eternity?” and he gave a hearty laugh.
Jobran replied, “A priest once told me that these biblical passages were using metaphors that we understood—such as fire—to illustrate the intensity and horror of the experience, and did not indicate that there are literal flames in these places. But he said that they were intended to indicate terrifying nature of these conditions, using symbolic language.”
Walter replied, “Gehenna and the lake of fire are indeed symbols—symbols of complete and everlasting destruction. To be cast into Gehenna is to not be worthy of resurrection by Jehovah.”
Jobran’s forehead wrinkled, and he gave a dubious look to Lamonte.
Lamonte said to Jobran sympathetically, “Illustrations and symbols in the Bible are often confused by the worldly religions. Take for example, Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16,” and he turned in Bible to this passage. “Obviously, this story is not to be taken literally.”
Jobran asked pointedly, “How do you know that these passages are simply ‘illustrations’? You think that the 144,000 figure is literally exact, for instance, despite its obvious ‘12 tribes times 12’ symbolic value. How do you know that Jesus’ parable isn’t exactly and literally what Jesus himself believed?”
Lamonte shot back, “Because the story can’t be taken literally! I mean, do you think that the rich man was literally sitting within eyesight of Abraham, who would be able to just send Lazarus on over to cool the rich man’s tongue with a drop of water? Even if he tried, wouldn’t the heat make the water immediately evaporate?” He shook his head at the notion. “Besides, a loving God would surely not torture even his most disobedient children forever. What would be the point, since they supposedly can’t change their minds, repent, and go on to Heaven anyway?”
Walter added, solemnly, “It is the pagan religions such as Buddhism and Islam, not the Bible, that teach such doctrines as an eternal fiery Hell. There were nations around Israel that also had such teachings, and Jehovah condemned these teachings. (Jer 7:31, 32:35) As Lamonte said earlier, the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures do talk about a place called Sheol in Hebrew, which in Greek is called Hades; these words are often translated into English as ‘Hell.’ But these words simply refer to the common grave of mankind, the condition to which the dead return, since—as we have already seen—the Bible teaches that the dead are in a state of complete unconsciousness and nonexistence after death.”
Something occurred to Jobran, who suddenly asked, “And do you believe that this state of complete unconsciousness after death until resurrection applied to Jesus Christ, as well?”
“Absolutely!” said Walter, confidently. “At the end of his crucifixion on a torture stake—Jesus was not crucified on a T-shaped cross, by the way—Luke 23:46 tells us that Jesus said, ‘Father, into thy hands I commend—that is, entrust—my spirit.’ When he had said this, he died. As Jesus’ spirit went out of him, he didn’t go to ‘heaven’; in fact, he was not resurrected from the dead until the third day. Jesus did, however, go to Hades after his death, according to Acts 2:31. Almost all people, good and bad, go to Hades after they die.”
With pretended incredulity, Lamonte asked Jobran, “What if Hades was the terrifying ‘Hell’ that the worldly religions talk about—surely you don’t think that Jesus—whose life was the greatest ever lived—would have gone to a place of fiery torment after his death?”
“If he had a particular reason for doing so, perhaps he would have; going to Hell doesn’t necessarily mean that he was being tormented there, any more than taking a tour of a prison makes you a prisoner,” Jobran replied, and then continued, “So you don’t believe that Jesus ‘descended into hell,’ as the Apostles’ Creed says? That is, you teach that he did not preach to the spirits in prison after his death, and before his resurrection?” (1 Pet 3:19)
With a genuinely puzzled expression, Lamonte looked to Walter, who replied, “1st Peter 3:19 says that Jesus preached to the ‘spirits in prison,’ who were disobedient angels—who in Noah’s day, of Genesis 6:1-4, had been cast into a prisonlike condition—rather than to human souls, but it doesn’t say when he did so.” Triumphantly, he added, “In fact, Jesus preached in what was called Tartarus in Greek—see 2nd Peter 2:4, and also Jude 6—but this preaching did not take place until after he had been resurrected out of Hades on the third day. Tartarus is in fact a condition, rather than a ‘place’ or location,” and it is not the same as the ‘abyss’ of Revelation 20:1-3.” Lamonte nodded his thanks to Walter, and made a note in his Bible.
Jobran would not be so easily dissuaded, however, and asked, “But didn’t Jesus promise the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day? That is, the day he was crucified?”
Lamonte burst in, saying, “This is where our New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is so useful. You see, in the Greek text of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there was originally no punctuation; this is always added by the translators. The correct translation of that passage is that Jesus said, ‘Truly I tell you today—comma—you will be with me in Paradise.’ In other words, Jesus was telling the thief something on the day they were crucified: namely, that one day, he would be with him in Paradise. (Lk 23:43) This ‘Paradise’ will be the restored earthly paradise of Eden, not the Heavenly Kingdom of Christ.”
Jobran looked skeptical, and said, “If there is no punctuation in the Greek text, then how do you know that there should be a comma where your translation puts it?”
“Because it’s the only way the passage makes sense, and is consistent with the rest of the Bible,” Walter said. “Other translations add punctuation differently in order to falsely make it seem
as if Jesus were promising the thief that he would be in Paradise that very day, which is not true. As we have already seen, Jesus himself was in the grave, or Hades, until his own resurrection.”
Jobran said, “So you don’t believe that even Jesus went to Heaven immediately after his death? Interesting.”
Walter added, “In fact, Jesus did not himself ascend into heaven until 40 days after his resurrection, whereupon he assumed his heavenly position at the right hand of Jehovah.” (Jn 20:17; Acts 1:1-3, 9)
“Does that mean that you do believe in Heaven, then? It’s not a symbol?” Jobran asked.
Lamonte smiled broadly, and replied, “Heaven is the dwelling place of Jehovah, from which he looks over the physical heavens, along with millions of spirit creatures called angels.” (Matt 18:10; Rev 5:11)
“Ah, so you do believe in angels. What about Satan? Is he also a symbol?” Jobran asked.
“No,” said Walter, shaking his head vigorously. “Satan was once an angel, who rebelled against Jehovah, of his own free will, as it says in Jude 6. This introduced sin into the spirit realm, and Satan became a corrupting influence on other spirit creatures. By the time of Noah, prior to the Flood, a large number of these spirit creatures joined Satan in rebellion against Jehovah. These fallen angels were not evicted from heaven immediately. Rather, they were tolerated, with certain restrictions, for thousands of years. By the way, you should know that both before he left Heaven to become Jesus Christ, and ever since the resurrected and ascended Jesus returned to heaven, he is known as Michael the archangel. Michael—Jesus in heaven—has now cast Satan and his demons from Heaven after a great war, and they were hurled down to Earth, which is why they are here trying to lead us astray.” (Jn 20:17; Acts 1:1-3, 9)
Lamonte nodded and added, “That’s why Satan is trying so desperately to deceive people today—because he knows that he has only a short time left.”
Beyond Heaven and Earth Page 28