by Plato
We'd only just come in when Alcibiades – beautiful Alcibiades, according to you, and I agree – arrived right behind us, along with Critias, Callaeschrus' son.23
Anyway, after we'd come in and spent a little time taking in the scene, we went up to Protagoras, and I said, ‘Protagoras, I'd [b] like you to meet Hippocrates; he and I have come especially to see you.’
‘And did you want to talk with me in private,’ he said, ‘or in front of the others as well?’
‘We don't mind either way,’ I said. ‘Why don't we tell you why we've come, and then you can decide for yourself?’
‘All right then,’ he said. ‘So why have you come?’
‘Well, Hippocrates here is a local boy, Apollodorus’ son – from a powerful and wealthy family; and in terms of his natural abilities, I'd say he's on a par with any of the young men his age. And his ambition, as far as I can tell, is to make a name [c] for himself in the city; and he thinks the best way to make that happen would be to spend some time as your pupil. That's it. So now you decide whether you think you should talk this over with us in private or in front of the others as well.’
‘That's very thoughtful of you, Socrates – and quite right too. After all, if a man is an outsider, and comes into large and powerful cities, and persuades the very best of the young men in those cities to give up spending their time with anyone else, family or friends, young or old, and to spend their time with him alone, so as to better themselves under his influence… [d] well, a man who does that for a living has to watch his back. It can cause a lot of resentment and hostility, and ill-will.24
‘My own view is that the sophist's profession has been around for a very long time; it's just that people who practised it in the past devised covers for their profession and disguised it, because they were worried about offending people. Some of them used poetry as their cover: Homer, for example, and Hesiod, and Simonides.25 Others used religious cults and oracular songs: Orpheus and Musaeus.26 And I've noticed some people even use athletics-training, like Iccus from Taras, and another who's still alive and as good a sophist as any: Herodicus from Selum-bria (although he's from Megara originally). And music; that [e] was used as a cover by your own Agathocles – a great sophist – and by Pythoclides from Ceos, 27 and plenty of others.
‘All these people, I'm saying, hid behind the screens of these various professions, because they were scared of people's resentment. But in my case, that's exactly where I do things differently from all of them. And that's because I believe that [317 a] they completely failed to achieve what they intended: they never fooled the powerful people in their cities; and they're the only ones the disguises were aimed at (because, let's face it, ordinary people never notice anything anyway; they just repeat whatever's dictated to them by the powerful). Now if you try to get away with something, and don't succeed, and instead get found out, that shows it was a pretty dumb idea even to make the attempt, and it's bound to make everyone even more hostile, [b] because people look on someone who tries that sort of thing as being dishonest on top of everything else. That's why in my case I've followed the exact opposite path: I freely admit that I'm a sophist and that educating people is my job; and I believe that method of protecting myself – admitting what I do rather than denying it – is far better than theirs. And I've taken a number of other measures besides that, the result of which is that nothing terrible ever happens to me – touch wood – through my admitting that I'm a sophist. And I've been practising [c] my profession now for many years.28 I've been around for quite a few in total. I'm old enough to be the father of any one of you.
‘So what I'd very much prefer, Socrates, if it's all right with you, is if we talked this over quite openly, in front of all the people here.’
So I said – because I had the suspicion that he wanted to show off a bit in front of Hippias and Prodicus, make a big fuss over the fact that a pair of his adoring fans had arrived – ‘Why [c] don't we invite Hippias and Prodicus over as well, and their pupils, so they can all listen in.’
‘By all means!’ said Protagoras.
‘In that case, would you like us to set up some chairs in a circle,’ said Callias, ‘so you can hold the talk sitting down?’
That's what we decided we should do, and at the prospect of listening to these great minds we all gladly took hold of the chairs and benches ourselves, 29 and arranged them beside Hippias (since that's where most of the benches already were); and at the same time, Callias and Alcibiades brought Prodicus [e] over, after getting him out of bed, along with Prodicus' pupils.
Once we were all sitting in a group, Protagoras began: ‘Now then Socrates, would you be so kind as to explain for the benefit of those who've just joined us the question you raised a few minutes ago when you spoke to me on the young man's behalf?’
[318 a] So I said, ‘I'll start from the same point as I did just a moment ago, Protagoras – our reason for coming to see you. The situation is this: Hippocrates here is keen to become your pupil; and he says he'd like to find out exactly how being your pupil will affect him. What's he going to get out of it? That's really all we wanted to say.’
Here's how Protagoras replied: ‘Quite simply, my young friend, if you become my pupil, what will happen is, the very day you start your tuition, you'll go home better than you were before; and the day after that the same thing will happen; and with every single day that passes you'll constantly improve.’
[b] When I'd heard that, I said, ‘Well, no surprises there, Protagoras. I could have figured that much out. I mean, after all, even you, in spite of your long experience and great knowledge, even you would get “better” if somebody taught you something you happened not to know anything about. That's not the answer I'm looking for. Look, imagine Hippocrates here had a sudden change of heart and wanted to become the apprentice of that young painter who's settled in Athens just recently – Zeuxippus from Heraclea – and suppose he went to him, the [c] same way he's come to you, and heard the same thing he's just heard from you, that with each passing day he'd “get better” and “improve”, and followed that up by asking, “Yes, but better at what? What am I going to improve at?” Zeuxippus would be able to tell him he'd get better at painting. And suppose he signed up with Orthagoras from Thebes, and heard the same thing from him, and again asked what exactly he'd be getting better at, with each passing day, by being his pupil. He'd say, “better at playing the flute”.30 That's the kind of answer I want you to give my young friend, and me too, since I'm the one asking the question for him: “Hippocrates here, if [d] he becomes Protagoras' pupil, will, the very first day he starts his tuition, return home better, and will improve like that with every passing day” – but better at what, Protagoras? Improve in what way?’
When Protagoras had heard what I had to say, he said, ‘You put your question really well, Socrates. And I like giving answers to people who ask good questions. So – if Hippocrates comes to me, his experience will be quite unlike what would have happened to him had he enrolled with any of the other sophists. The fact is, other sophists abuse the young. They take young men who have specifically avoided skilled professions [e] and thrust them, against their will, right back into mere skills – by teaching them mathematics, and astronomy, and geometry, and music' – and as he spoke he shot a glance at Hippias – ‘but if he comes to me, he'll only be taught the thing he's come to me to learn. The course I teach is in good decision-making, whether it's in his personal life, where the question is how he can best manage his own household, or in public matters, where the aim is to make him as effective as he can be at handling and [319 a] debating the affairs of his city.’
‘Let me see if I follow what you're saying,’ I said. ‘It looks to me as if you're talking about civic and ethical know-how.31 You're saying you actually undertake to turn people into good citizens.’
‘That's exactly right, Socrates. That's precisely the service I offer.’
‘Wow!’ I said. ‘In that case that's quite an impressive l
ittle skill you've got there – if what you're saying is true. Because I'm going to be perfectly frank with you, Protagoras; the fact is, I always thought this was something people couldn't be [b] taught – of course, seeing as it's you saying otherwise, I don't see how I can possibly have any doubts. But I suppose I should explain my reasons for thinking this is something that can't be taught or… supplied from one person to another.
‘The thing is, I look upon Athenians – as does everyone else in Greece – as being pretty smart people.32 And I notice that when we come together for our public meetings, sometimes, if the city has to do something that involves, say, a building project, then it's the builders who are called in to give advice on the construction work; and if it involves making ships, then it's the shipbuilders – and it's the same with everything else; [c] everything, that is, that they think of as being teachable and [c] learnable. And if anyone else tries to give them any advice, someone they don't recognize as a professional, then it doesn't matter how beautiful he is, or how wealthy, or how important his family is – they won't pay any more attention to what he has to say; they'll just laugh at him and heckle him, until the man trying to speak gets shouted down and backs off of his own accord, or the archers drag him away, or haul him out, on the orders of the presiding officers.
‘So that's the way they do things when they're discussing something they think of as a matter of technical know-how. But when they've got to come to some general decision on how [d] our city should be run, 33 then anyone at all can get up and give an opinion – he could be a carpenter or a smith; a shoemaker, a shopkeeper or a shipowner; he could be rich or poor; an aristocrat or a nobody. And this time no one gets angry – the way they do in those other cases – no one complains that “he hasn't learned these things anywhere; he hasn't had a teacher; and now he's trying to tell us what to do!” – obviously because they don't think of this as something people can be taught.
‘But don't think this only applies in the public domain. It's [e] the same with individuals: our best and smartest citizens are incapable of passing on to others what it is that makes them good.34 Take Pericles, the father of these boys here: in areas that called for teachers, he had the two of them very well educated; but as for his own kind of knowledge35 – he isn't [320 a] teaching them himself, and he hasn't handed them over to anyone to do it for him. Instead here they are, left to their own devices, roaming around like holy cows, 36 in the hope that they'll stumble their way into being good men, all on their own. Or how about what happened with Clinias, the younger brother of Alcibiades here? It involved Pericles again: he was Clinias' guardian37 and became worried that Alcibiades might be a bad influence on him, so he snatched him away and set him down at Ariphron's, and started educating him there; but in less than six months he found the boy was just a hopeless case and sent him back to Alcibiades. And I could give you a number of other [b] examples of people who, even though they're good people themselves, have never made any member of their own family a better man, or anyone else.
‘So those are my reasons, Protagoras; reflecting on all of that, I take the view that you can't make someone good by teaching them.38 Of course, now that I've heard you saying otherwise, I'm beginning to waver, and I find myself thinking there must be something in what you say, seeing as I look on you as someone of wide experience and great learning, and as an original thinker as well. So if you've got any way of making things a bit clearer for me and showing that being good is in fact something people can be taught, please don't keep it to [c] yourself; show me why it's so.’
‘Don't worry, Socrates,’ he said. ‘I'm not going to keep it to myself. But listen, would you all rather I explained things by plain argument, or shall I tell you a story, seeing as I'm the old man and you're the youngsters?’
A number of the people who were sitting around us said he should give his explanation whichever way he preferred.
‘Well, in that case I think it would be more agreeable if I told you a story…’
‘A long, long time ago, 39 there were only gods; there weren't yet any mortal kinds. And when the fated time arrived for them [d] to come into being as well, the gods, working within the earth, began to mould them into shape from a blend of earth and fire (along with all the things that are a mix of fire and earth). And when they were on the point of bringing them into the light of day, they assigned to Thinxahead and Thinxtoolate40 the task of embellishing the animals and handing out appropriate abilities to each. But Thinxtoolate asked his brother Thinxahead to let him do the handing out of things by himself. “Let me do it, and when it's done, come and check on what needs doing.” He talked him into it and this is what he did:
‘To some creatures he attributed strength without swiftness, [e] the weaker ones he endowed with speed. To some he gave weaponry, while for the ones he'd given a weaponless physique, he devised some other ability for their survival: to those he'd wrapped in littleness, he gave the power to escape on wings or live below the ground; while for those he'd expanded to a great [321 a] bulk, he made that bulkiness the very thing that saved them. And he handed out everything else with the same sort of checks and balances, the aim of these devices being, so far, to ensure that no species should vanish from the earth. But once he'd provided the animals with sufficient means of avoiding a glut of mutual destruction, he also contrived ways of making their lives comfortable in the face of Zeus' seasons, by clothing them in thick coats of fur or toughened hides, which as well as being able to ward off winter's chill, and sufficient against the scorching summer heat, would also serve each and every creature, when it laid itself down to sleep, as its very own self-grown bedding. And when it came to footwear, some he [b] gave hooves, and some a covering of thick and bloodless skin. After that, he set about giving the animals various ways of feeding themselves. For some, it was the plants that sprang from the ground, for others the fruits or the roots of trees; and there were some that he allowed to devour other animals for their food, being careful, in those cases, to make the predators rare and with few offspring, but their prey abundant, so that their sheer numbers would be the means of their survival.
‘Now Thinxtoolate wasn't all that smart, and before he knew it he'd used up all the available abilities on the non-reasoning [c] animals. That meant he still had human beings on his hands, with no embellishments at all. And he simply didn't know what to do with them. And while he sat there with no idea what to do, along came Thinxahead to check the handing out of things, and he saw that while the other animals were all very carefully provided for, humankind was naked, shoeless, without bedding and defenceless. What's more, the day on which human beings had to come out of the earth and into the light was now at hand.
‘Now it was Thinxahead who didn't know what to do: he couldn't come up with any way for human beings to survive, so he stole: he stole the technical ingenuity that belonged to [d] Hephaestus and Athena, along with fire (because there was no way anyone could possess it, or make any use of it, without fire) and he bestowed those gifts on humankind. By that means human beings at least acquired the kind of intelligence they needed to remain alive; but what they didn't have was civic and ethical intelligence. That was in the hands of Zeus, you see, and Thinxahead was no longer permitted to enter the citadel that was Zeus' residence – what's more, Zeus' palace guards were terrifying. But he was able to sneak into the house that was shared by Athena and Hephaestus, where the two of them spent their time happily plying their crafts, and he stole Hephaestus' [e] fire-based skills and various other arts that belonged to Athena, and gave them to humankind. And from that day forth the human race had what it needed to provide for itself and stay alive – though later Thinxahead was punished for his theft, so [322 a] the story goes; all thanks to Thinxtoolate.
‘So now that people had their little share of what is given to the gods, in the first place, on account of their connections in high places, they alone among living things had any notion of the divine, and they set about building altars and making statues o
f the gods. And as well as that, by using their ingenuity, they soon came up with words for things and formed articulate speech and invented shelters, clothes, shoes and bedding, and worked out how to grow their own food.
‘Now, supplied with these advantages, in earliest times [b] people lived scattered here and there.41 There were no societies. So they started being killed by the wild animals, since they were weaker than them in every way, and their technical skills, although up to the task of providing them with food, just weren't good enough for the battle against the beasts (they didn't yet have any civic and ethical know-how, remember; and knowing how to fight a war is part of that). So they kept on trying to find a way to gather into groups and defend themselves by founding communities, but every time they came together, they would do one another wrong, since they didn't have any ethical know-how, and so they would scatter again and go back to being slaughtered.
[c] ‘At this point Zeus became worried that our species might perish altogether from the earth, so he asked Hermes to take down to people a sense of right and wrong.42 This was to bring order to societies, and to serve as the bonds for friendship and love, and bring us together. So Hermes says to Zeus, “But how? How am I supposed to give people this sense of right and wrong? Should I hand it out in the same way we handed out the technical skills? You remember how they were handed out. One person with, say, knowledge of medicine is enough for a large number of people who don't know anything about it; and it's the same with the other skilled professions. So shall I put a sense of right and wrong in human kind like that, or should [d] I hand it out to all of them?” “Give it out to all of them,” said Zeus.43 “Every single one must have a share. The fact is, there's no way societies could exist at all if only a few people possessed a sense of right and wrong, the way it is with those other skills. In fact, make it a rule, on my authority, that anyone who proves incapable of acquiring some sense of right and wrong must be thought of as a sickness to society and put to death!”