For the masters, they only need a light touch (with their opponent), and they will know how skillful the opponent is. In the old days, the masters could save face for others and spare the opponents the embarrassment [of losing the match]. I think this is quite interesting. It is a big deal to destroy someone’s reputation because he does not represent himself, but his school. Different schools would avenge for themselves, and the revenge never stops.
SW: You spent three years visiting kung fu masters. What is your opinion about Chinese kung fu nowadays?
WKW: Now there are two kinds of Chinese kung fu: one is institutional martial arts [for competition]. It sees martial arts as a sport. There is nothing called a school; all are tactics. But if there is no school, there will be no tradition to pass on; there will be no masters and apprentices. Actually Chinese used to say, “Learning by hands-on teaching.” This is very important because some things are taught by an oral tradition from the heart. The apprentices have to practice until they reach a certain level. When they are ready, the master would test and inspire them. Then the apprentices’ horizons of kung fu would be broadened. Kung fu development outside the state is worrying. Nowadays, parents won’t allow children to practice kung fu. They learn taekwondo, art, music … but kung fu is not acceptable. I have interviewed many students who are in their fifties, and they said they could only concentrate on practicing kung fu after retirement. The youngest apprentices are in their fifties. You could say this is indeed worrying. “The poor study [to make money] while the wealthy [have the money to] practice kung fu.”7 To make a living, you can’t spend time practicing kung fu.
NOTES
1. The pair mianzi 面子 and lizi 裡子 can be seen as a yingyang concept. “Mianzi” can be translated as appearance, face, reputation, and the outer side, while “lizi” can be translated as actuality, soul, and the hidden or inner side. The meanings of both words change in different contexts. In the rest of the interview, the meanings are translated without citing the original Chinese words used in the interview.
2. The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber (1961–1963) and The Deer and the Cauldron (1969–1972) were novels penned by Jin Yong (Louis Cha). Tony Leung starred in the television adaptations of The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber in 1986 and The Deer and the Cauldron in 1984. Both shows were produced by Television Broadcast Ltd. in Hong Kong.
3. This is the line that Master Gong says to Ip Man after their match. Master Gong hopes Ip Man can pass on the torch and never give up his faith.
4. Guandong (or Kwantung) was a Japanese-occupied territory in Northeast China during the late Qing and Republican era. Chang Ta-chun, a well-known Taiwanese writer as well as the script consultant of The Grandmaster, has written an article on the story of Ding Lianshan. It can be found at: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6b736b5b0102e272.html
5. In DVD, this dialogue is translated as “Good men can be found among rogues.”
6. In ancient Chinese, hanging up the badge (official stamp) means becoming an official.
7. This saying means those who don’t have money need to study hard to sit for examination so that they can get a good job. Those who come from a wealthy background don’t need to have a job to make a living, so they can indulge in their hobbies, such as kung fu. This was true in Ip Man’s days, and Wong implied that it is still true: Chinese parents want their children to learn something useful so that they will be admitted to good universities.
The Grandmaster, Director Wong Kar Wai
David Poland / 2013
From DP/30 (US). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeCfktjSlyc. Interview conducted in English in 2013.
David Poland: Have you been to Comic Con?1
Wong Kar-wai: Yes, two nights ago.
DP: Did you just go down for fun?
WKW: No, we have a screening over there.
DP: So, how is it?
WKW: It’s very, very strange.
DP: (laughs) Is there a geek universe in Japan, not in China, that you’re a part of?
WKW: No, the thing is I expect it’s all kids. It’s mainly for comic fans and kids, so we went there. Actually you find most people are not kids. They are very mature, but all in costume. It’s fun.
DP: Is there any culture like that in China?
WKW: No, none. I think in Japan, yes.
DP: All the manga stuff.
WKW: The manga is something very important in Japan. They have a big following.
DP: Is it fun to watch [your own film The Grandmaster] with this crowd? I’m sure they went crazy.
WKW: No, it’s not true. At first I did a mix for this Comic Con version, a bit stronger than it’s supposed to be, because I thought the crowd is a different crowd. They might need something more exciting, but in fact they are very quiet, in a way they are not quiet for bad reasons. They’re very patient and very into the film, and the reception is very, very warm.
DP: So does this film feel like the rest of your body of work to you? Does it feel like a different thing and that it’s the first WKW chopsocky movie?2
WKW: No, I’m not doing a chopsocky kung fu film. It’s been a long time since there was a kung fu film, like what we saw in the ’70s Shaw Brothers, very hardcore, very authentic. There’s no flying. There’s no fancy move. Everything is very precise, and it’s hardcore.
DP: It is hardcore. So how do you see it? I mean you were talking [about it] before the screening.
WKW: Right, I did say something.
DP: I would say you said a lot of good things. You were talking about how when you wrote the script there was room for improvising the words because you already knew very clearly what the visuals were in your head. Do you start conceptualizing doing something like this from the very beginning?
WKW: No, because after all, we are filmmakers. We are not writers, but we need writings to make a movie. You have to think in terms of a visual; that’s why we spent so much time on doing interviews with different masters from different schools. It’s not just talking. I had to get them to do demonstrations, and when they showed you the demonstration, you just looked at the move. You understood the move: What is the mechanisms of the body? How to make this kick? And how to do this fight? And then it’s in your mind already because you already have the shot, have the set up. You know how to [film it]. I don’t practice martial arts, even though I’ve watched thousands of martial arts films, but it’s a different thing. You have to actually feel it. And every time I did an interview with a master, I would say, “I want [you] to show how hard that punch goes.” In some of these Chinese schools they are not talking about force, they are talking about the power. So it doesn’t seem very strong, but somehow it hurts a lot. So you have to feel that.
DP: How did you get to the point where you decide to tour and to meet everybody, to meet the kung fu universe?
WKW: When I wanted to make this film, I already decided that this is a once in a lifetime chance for me to actually understand what Chinese kung fu is. We’ve seen so many kung fu films, and at a point people just think Chinese kung fu is a show. It is like a trick. It’s not that efficient (Wong may mean effective) or practical. So I wanted to find out how good it is because it has a long history, and there must be a reason why this arts stays for so long. When you have the chance to meet with these people, [it is not] just listening to stories, reading books, or watching films. You have to go exactly where they live, see how they practice, and know what exactly the skill is. I think that’s very fascinating to me.
DP: So the journey was your journey first?
WKW: Yes, I spent three years on the road.
DP: Have you done this kind of research for any other films?
WKW: Yeah.
DP: All of them or some of them?
WKW: Some of them because if I’m going to make Chunking Express or Happy Together, I don’t have to do much research because the stories are contemporary. But if you make a film like The Grandmaster, you have to understand the world. You can never understand the st
ory of Ip Man without knowing the time he went through, the background of his family, and the martial arts movement at that time.
DP: So did you approach 2046 in this way as well?
WKW: No, 2046 is more like a fantasy. It’s about a writer in the ’60s, I know many of them. These are people that I know from my childhood, and the futuristic part is basically a very low-tech futuristic vision from the ’60s. I intended to make it like that because it’s the imagination of a writer in the ’60s, not [how a writer imagines the future] today.
DP: When I think of you, I think of you as a twenty-five-year-old still. Somehow, you’re not quite twenty-five anymore. When you started out did you think, “I wanna make a certain kind of film,” or are you just trying to be in the moment and find your voice as you are working?
WKW: You never know what it’s like when you start on a project; you somehow have a hunch. I always say the first people who visit a place are called adventurers, like Christopher Columbus. After that they are all tourists because they know exactly what they will get. I don’t want to be a tourist. I want to be someone who discovers something.
DP: So that was your philosophy from the beginning?
WKW: Yes. Otherwise, what’s the point?
DP: So why film?
WKW: It’s the only thing that I know, which I think I’m good at.
DP: Did you figure out you were good at it from the beginning?
WKW: First of all, writing is too hard and too boring. Acting is not something that I want to do, so I think I will make films. Remember we are from a time when film really was a very exciting medium. When I was a kid we would spend almost every day watching films.
DP: But when you started, not a lot of work that was done in the Chinese film industry was like your work. It was very melodramatic, very kind of old fashioned in a way.
WKW: No, not true. When you look at some of the old classics in the ’30s they were very expressionistic, and when you look at the films from the Shaw Brothers in the ’70s, they were also in a way full of energy. So it’s not true [that no work was like mine when I started]. I must say when we started it was the beginning of the so-called Hong Kong New Wave.3 It was a time that was very exciting. You had a lot of chances to make films and to express your ideas.
DP: So you felt an absolute freedom to do your work from the beginning?
WKW: Right, but of course you have to because we are independent. We have to manage a lot of things. When we first started, we were not mainstream filmmakers, and we did not produce mainstream products. So you have to really make your voice heard, to make extra efforts to convince people that it’s something that they should pay attention to.
DP: So did the Western world’s embrace of your work change the game for you? Did it make it easier? Did it make it harder? Was it something that everyone’s excited about in Hong Kong?
WKW: I think it helps because that makes our audience bigger, and that means more resources to make the films that we want.4
DP: So did you ever have the urge to do something more commercial?
WKW: I think all my films are very commercial.
DP: But I don’t imagine you doing a Star Wars episode any time soon.
WKW: If I have this passion like George Lucas, why not? I think he has this passion to make a world of his own, like in Star Wars. Somehow I have a passion to make a film about the world of martial arts. I think it’s the same thing. It’s really what drives a filmmaker to do his best. He must have this kind of passion that is almost like an addiction. He wants to makes sure everything’s right. He’s so curious about this world, and I think that’s the driving force.
DP: So you don’t have a judgement about filmmakers’ choices in terms of their subject. Whatever their passion is, hopefully they make it interesting and do a good job.
WKW: There’re so many filmmakers today. Everybody can be a filmmaker with your iPhone, with your camera. So all of us are actually providing a vision and sharing our angles. Some people get picked up because they get appreciated by a lot of people. Others have less following, but that doesn’t mean that their work is [of a] more or less [quality]. It’s our job to do something to convince ourselves, then we have to convince others.
DP: At Cannes this year, and almost every year, there’s this kind of huge [star] that most film critics are talking about all the time.
WKW: That’s their job.
DP: Yes, but there’s an extreme response sometimes. Obviously all of the films have been qualified by the festival, but there’s this kind of rage about some films. The critics hate them, and then there are films they absolutely love, almost all generous too.
WKW: I think film critics are more generous than before. Today, I always feel like when you go to a film festival, you have a kind of mission. You have to deliver some message. You have to have social conscience [editors’ note: Wong may mean social consciousness]. I’m not saying that’s wrong, but that doesn’t mean films have to be made in this way. Not all the films have to address [social consciousness] because there are so many more things we need to address. We can address some urgent issues [of the present], or something else, that is more about life.
DP: So are you into all genres, or are there things that you would pass? Do you like animation? Are you interested in science fiction? Well, I mean you’ve done science fiction.
WKW: Genre is basically like a uniform. You are the same person, but you can put on different uniforms. That’s why you need this uniform. We call this a form. So what you are going to say has to go with the form, and you pick the right uniform for this occasion or this message. That’s it.
DP: So what was the very first inkling on The Grandmaster? Was there a moment when you first thought that someday you’d like to make a movie like this?
WKW: I always wanted to make a kung fu film.
DP: Since you were a kid.
WKW: Yes, I am a big fan, but I have to find my angle because most of the kung fu films are about who’s the better fighter—whether I’m the best in the world—or revenge. What’s my angle? I don’t think I’m going to make many kung fu films. If this is the only chance, I want to make it right. I want to make a very different kung fu film. It’s not only about the skills; it’s also about the wisdom, the philosophy. Why has the tradition of martial arts been like this for so many years? There is a certain wisdom in it. I think it’s a time for not only the action audience, but we would like to have more people look at this film to understand this world.
DP: Did you go into the journey to meet people to explore the world after you had an idea of what your hook was that made it uniquely yours, or did you go looking to find it as part of that journey?
WKW: I wanted to make a film like this, but I don’t have all the keys. I need to find those keys. I need to walk through that door and find all the answers myself.
DP: At what point did you feel you’d figure it out, or have you?
WKW: I can’t say. I think this is the beginning. There’re just so many interesting aspects of Chinese martial arts tradition. I hope we have taken the lead, and some filmmakers in the future can continue doing it because I think it’s very worthwhile.
DP: Well it’s interesting because you took a long time to make the film, and people knew you were working on a film and roughly knew about the story. So a bunch of people made movies [about Ip Man] before your movie even came out. There were even sequels that came out before you started. Are you conscious of that when it’s happening? Are you thinking about the commercial world around while you’re working?
WKW: People work at a different pace. Like what I said last night, if you want to do something original, of course it will take time. You are not just copying something. In fact after we announced the film The Grandmaster there are so many films about Ip Man that were made even at a greater speed. [Those filmmakers are] more efficient than I. But I don’t mind. I don’t feel pissed because I think it’s good to have films talking about this character, to bring an a
wareness of Ip Man and his ideas and to bring the awareness that we have to revisit the traditions of martial arts because it’s not in very good shape now.
In China today two forms of martial arts exist: the form that is encouraged by the government—the competitive martial arts. There is no school, just a combination of skills from different schools. There is no history; it’s a sport. It’s a sport for the Olympics. There is no teacher; there is no student. You only have a coach and the athletes.
The second form is the traditional martial arts that exists only among individuals. They are not supported by government. Most of the masters I interviewed are in their ’70s. The youngest student is fifty-five because [these students] are retired, and they can focus on this practice. So you can see that traditional martial arts is dying. I hope this film can bring out the awareness of that.
DP: So the younger ones are doing a copy of a copy?
WKW: Yeah, come on, let’s be honest. Today people say they practice Tai Chi because Tai Chi is like Chinese yoga. That’s not true because when you look at the first two generations of the Tai Chi masters, they died very young. Tai Chi is a very, very lethal weapon. It can kill.
DP: So taking a Tai Chi class in the mall in the suburb, it is probably not the core of it.
WKW: Well I’m sure it helps, and it’s good exercise. But the thing is you cannot label Tai Chi as yoga. It’s not the essence of Tai Chi. Tai Chi is about the balance. It is, in a way, a weapon.
DP: So you’re not talking about the philosophy and the spirituality of the forms; you’re just doing exercise.
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