by MAC-3
Kathy: Oh, yeah. Something like that.
Me: Something like that.
Kathy: Yeah, something like that. Yeah.
Me: About when was that? Was that this year?
Kathy: Yeah! I think so, anyway. It was awhile ago!
Me: Okay, but that gave you the idea to give that phony story about the sex thing, is that right?
Kathy: Yeah.
Me: So, let me continue with how he treated you. You said he treated you like dirt. All he wanted was to have you clean his house and get his beer, and so forth?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Any love, any affection, any warmth, any real true feelings at all?
Kathy: No! He often said . . . he would give me a hug and said he loved me, but it came off with no feeling! It was really cold, and you could tell he didn’t mean it.
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Me: Well . . .
Kathy: He only did that when my ma was around!
Me: So, just to show her, to put on an act or something?
Kathy: Yeah.
Me: Okay. So, let me ask you, do you really think that he loves you?
Kathy: No!
Me: You’re convinced of that?
Kathy: Yes!
Me: Okay! Would you have given this false story about him if you thought he loved you?
Kathy: I might have! With all the stuff he’s done and everything, but I don’t know!
Me: Let’s cover a couple of things he’s done. All right? All the things he’s done . . . some things are hard to put into words, but let’s cover what you know about what he’s done, all right?
Particularly to your ma! You said to me earlier that you don’t think that he does have any fondness or feelings for her, then?
Kathy: Nah.
Me: You don’t think he loves her?
Kathy: Nah, not really! It’s the way he acts towards her. She really likes him a lot—loves him I guess you could say.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: I think she’s kind of blind to the way he treats her!
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: He treats her like garbage, too! I mean he comes home with the same routine: “Hi, I’m home. Get me a beer.” Then he goes and sits down! Then, you know, he gives my mom a kiss, but you can tell he doesn’t mean it cause he’s looking away, and he doesn’t even look at her.
Me: Okay. How has he hurt her?
Kathy: Just by acting this way to her. They get into physical fights a lot, too! I’ve had to break them up out of a couple!
Me: Is that right? Hit each other, do they?
Kathy: He hits her mostly! He’s tried to kill her before!
Me: Oh, he has?
Kathy: He’s gotten on top of her and tried to strangle her, and I’ve had to pull him off her, you know, and that hurts her a lot!
Me: You feel bad about that?
Kathy: Yeah! She’s tried to kill herself! Once! She was planning on it, anyway!
Me: Uh-huh.
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Kathy: During one of these fights, she said, he was thinking of walking out, he said. She said, if you’re leaving, there’s no sense in my living, then. She ran into the kitchen to get a knife to kill herself with. I stopped her from that, too. He would never have stopped her.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: He was just watching her. He didn’t care!
Me: Uh-huh. So, he doesn’t really care too much about her?
Kathy: No!
Me: Yeah, and how does all this make you feel now?
Kathy: Like he doesn’t really love her at all, you know. If she’s going to kill herself, if he’s not going to live with her any more.
And he doesn’t even care. He just stands there and watches her. He doesn’t even try to stop her.
Me: So, that causes you to feel, then, that he doesn’t care about her, and she might hurt herself because she really likes him.
Kathy (tearfully): Yeah!
Me: Is that right?
Kathy: Yeah! Uh-huh.
Me: Can you sense that she might hurt herself?
Kathy: Yeah! I mean, she probably would if, you know, if he’s not going to stop her, and like when they’re fighting, he’s not going to stop her, so I have to stop her. She’s not going to automatically quit.
Me: You feel a responsibility?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: To help her?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: And so, by giving this phony story you were trying to help her?
Kathy: Yeah, I guess so, to get him out of her life! So she wouldn’t hurt herself, I guess.
Me: Okay. And that’s why you were giving that story about sexual intercourse and so forth?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: Okay, okay! Well, it’s different, you know, when you look at it that way. It’s different than being nasty. I mean, you’re not trying to be nasty. You’re trying to be helpful! I mean, you’re doing something in love for your mom? You follow what I’m trying . . . ?
Kathy: Yeah, I guess so!
Me: Is that correct now?
Kathy: Yeah!
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Me: Are you a nasty person?
Kathy: No!
Me: Okay. So, whatever you did, then, on this phony story about sex with Michael, whatever you did there was an act of love for your mom?
Kathy: Yeah.
Me: Is that fair to say?
Kathy: Yeah.
Me: Okay, okay now. I guess what we need to talk about, too, is whether you’re sorry for going through the story, the phony story, or are you not. You don’t have to be one way or the other. I just want to check with you, all right? How do you feel now? You know you didn’t pass your polygraph examination.
Kathy: Yeah, I know that!
Me: All right! And how old are you now?
Kathy: Thirteen.
Me: Thirteen now. Okay. Let me get back to the question. How do you feel now about making that decision to give the phony story?
How do you feel about that now? I mean, we found out about that, you and I.
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: You and I talked about that.
Kathy: In some ways, I’m sorry; in some ways, I’m not! I’m sorry that it’s gone this far, and all these people are working so hard to get it into court, and it’s not even true.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: You know, and then the way I’m not sorry is that all the crap he’s pulled, I mean he deserved it!
Me: Okay, okay. I’m not looking for you to be one way or the other!
All right!
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: As I’ve said before, it’s not up to me to decide. I’m not to judge anything. I just want to work with you. All right? I’m just looking for you to tell me how you feel. So, I hear you say that he’s pulled a lot of crap, and he deserves all the hassle you’ve given him?
Kathy: Yeah. He’s given us twice as much as I’ve given him in the past couple of months.
Me: Okay, all right. So, tell me more about how you feel now, now that you are getting the story out. You’re telling the straight scoop, right?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: What else do you feel?
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Kathy: Well, I’m upset with myself for going this far, really! In a way!
Me: Are you?
Kathy: Yeah! Going this far with it to take a polygraph test and then flunking it!
Me: You know you flunked it, right?
Kathy: Oh, yeah!
Me: Yeah, okay, there’s no doubt about it, right?
Kathy: Yeah.
Me: Now, during the test, just let me ask you, I could see you weren’t giving me your full cooperation. You were trying some funny stuff in there with me. How were you thinking? How were you functioning in there? You were trying some things? And what were you thinking about during the testing?
/> Kathy: Trying to be as calm as I possibly could.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: Act normal.
Me: Okay, you were doing some things in there to try and throw me a curve. I could see that, and I know that. And I’m not asking you if you were or not, because I can see that. But I’m just asking, what were you thinking when you were doing this? I’m not going to hold it against you, that’s no problem! You were trying to protect yourself, I know that. What were you thinking when you were doing that?
Kathy: Just to pass it, you know!
Me: Just to pass it?
Kathy: Yeah, to throw the machine off.
Me: To throw it off a little bit? Yeah!
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: What were you doing? What were you doing to throw it off?
Kathy: Really, just act the same throughout to cover it up real quick, you know!
Me: Uh-huh. Well, what did you do physically?
Kathy: Physically?
Me: Yeah! Muscles or breathing or whatever? You know?
Kathy: I can’t even remember if I did anything.
Me: It looks like you did something on your breathing; you were changing your breathing! What were you doing there?
Kathy: I was trying to catch my breath. I was having a little hard time breathing.
Me: Oh, yeah?
Kathy: Yeah!
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Me: How else did you feel on the testing?
Kathy: Just, you know, tell a lie, and make it look like the truth!
Me: So, you were trying to make it show it to look like the truth?
What were you trying to do to make it look like the truth?
Kathy: Just act real calm and cool!
Me: I want to be sure I have this recording as part of the report. So what I’m saying is, I’m looking to have you explain your feelings, your thoughts. That’s what we’re talking about, about Michael—
Michael and the things you felt in your relationship over the past thirteen years. You already mentioned a certain amount of hassle, anger that you had. What else would you be angry about with him? What else made you angry with him?
Kathy: Mom!
Me: Just about your mom, and so forth?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: Because she went to get a knife one time, and he tried to choke her another time. He doesn’t seem very thoughtful. He doesn’t seem like he loves her?
Kathy: Uh-huh. If she was having a nervous breakdown, he wouldn’t care. He’d just grab a beer or something, you know?
Me: Okay, he just doesn’t care; you said he just doesn’t care?
Kathy: Uh-huh. His main idea of punishment for kids, too, is that if they do something accidentally—and if you break something and stuff—it is to hit them and ground them for about a month.
Me: Is that right?
Kathy: Yeah! He says that if they ever smart off to you, just give them a big whack, and then they won’t talk about it for a week.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: That’s his idea of punishment.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: My mom is not like that, though!
Me: No! But so he has done that sort of thing to you?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Has he grounded you a lot?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: How did you feel about that?
Kathy: Well, there’s nothing I could do about it! I mean, if I was grounded, if I went against it, I’d just get it worse the next time.
Me: Okay. Let me ask you now, Kathy, as far as you’re concerned, do you think he deserved all this treatment by police and authorities and so forth? Do you think he deserved this now? I mean, did he have it coming to him?
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Kathy: Most of it, I mean. In my book, he had it coming to him anyway.
Me: Okay. Anything else that should be coming to him? Well, what do you think should happen to him? Now?
Kathy: I don’t know. I don’t know much about the law or nothing, but I wish my mom would wise up to the ways he treats her.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: You know, but I wised up about it a long time ago.
Me: Yeah! How old were you when you first realized what he was doing?
Kathy: I was about ten or so!
Me: About ten or so?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: What happened there that kind of turned you on to the kind of guy he is?
Kathy: I just started paying more attention to him, how he was acting around my ma, and how he was acting around me.
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: And how many fights they got into.
Me: Yeah!
Kathy: Stuff like that.
Me: Yeah, okay!
Kathy: How many times he kicked my dog, and everything else.
Me: Oh, you have a dog he kicked?
Kathy: Yeah, if my dog won’t come as soon as he says so. My dog’s kind of hard of hearing and old. My dad will kick him.
Me: Ah.
Kathy: He’ll say, “You dumb dog,” and he’ll give him a big kick.
My dog is pretty old as it is!
Me: I see! So he really doesn’t have any feeling for the dog, either.
Kathy: Not that I can see!
Me: Is there anything good about Michael that you can comment on, anything good about him?
Kathy: Sometimes when he decides to be nice, he can be pretty easy to get along with.
Me: I see.
Kathy: But that isn’t that often that he is really that easy to get along with.
Me: What makes you the most angry?
Kathy: What makes me the angriest?
Me: About him, yeah!
Kathy: Everything, really!
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Me: Everything he does, huh?
Kathy: Yeah, I mean, his actions, how he treats people in general!
Me: Okay, so he’s not a nice guy, then.
Kathy: No.
Me: You first got your idea about the phony story about having sex with Michael . . . this was about when? You said it was about this year?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: Uh-huh.
Kathy: I was thinking of some way to get him in trouble, but I didn’t know how. And I started reading the paper every morning, and I saw some stories in the paper about that kind of stuff.
Then I thought, that’s what I want to do, too.
Me: Uh-huh. So you got the idea, then, from the newspaper?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay. As you mentioned before, the notes you wrote to your girlfriend . . .
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Those were all false, then?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Yeah! Then you mentioned that you didn’t think it would go this far?
Kathy: I didn’t. I didn’t know it would go this far. I knew it would a little ways, and maybe I would get out of the house. But I didn’t know all these charges would come up and everything else.
Me: That surprised you?
Kathy: That took me by surprise! I really didn’t expect it!
Me: What did you think about that?
Kathy: I was totally blown away when I found out there were charges against him! I was blown away! I didn’t know what to do!
Didn’t know what to think! I decided to go ahead with it still. I didn’t know exactly what would happen to him.
Me: Yeah! Yeah! I know you changed your story, you know. You said it did happen, then it didn’t happen, then it did happen. You changed it a couple of times before now.
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: What you’re telling me now is the straight scoop, then?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: This is true information that you did not have sexual intercourse with Michael at all?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
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Me: Now, what I want to do
is to go and talk with the county attorney. Would you be willing to straighten this out with him now?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: I know it’s embarrassing, all right.
Kathy: It was embarrassing the first time I changed my story.
Me: All right. Someone talked you into continuing on with this story, right?
Kathy: Well, not talked me into it . . . just . . . some people didn’t believe when I said nothing happened. So, I thought I was doing a pretty good job of it; maybe I should keep it going. Then he would get in trouble; then my mom would get away from him.
Me: Who do you think you talked to that believed the story and kind of encouraged you to go ahead with more?
Kathy: Well, no one in particular, I mean. I told people it wasn’t true, and people said, “I don’t believe you. You know we can’t force you into saying the real truth, and it did happen.”
Me: Who did you talk to that gave you the idea that you should continue?
Kathy: Nobody really! Just all the people I talked to, I guess.
Me: They wanted to hear the worst?
Kathy: Yeah! It sounded like it, anyway; everybody wanted to hear the worst.
Me: Who wanted to hear the worst mostly?
Kathy: Just everybody, I guess. Not one that wanted to hear it mostly. It’s just they didn’t want to hear it when it didn’t happen.
Me: Okay, your story to begin with was phony?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Is that right?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, and then when you said it was phony, they didn’t believe you?
Kathy: Right!
Me: And so you thought, what the heck, if they believe it was real, then you are going to continue on with it? Is that right?
Kathy: Uh-huh.
Me: It probably made you feel pretty good that they were believing the story?
Kathy: Not pretty good, pretty nervous.
Me: Oh, did it make you feel nervous?
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Kathy: Yeah! I was trying to tell the truth, and they didn’t believe me. What [was] I going to do?
Me: Uh-huh. And so, what? You thought that you were really going to get back at him because they were believing your story? Is that what I hear you say?
Kathy: Yeah!
Me: Okay, then. Let’s go and talk to the attorney.