by MAC-3
REVIEW QUESTIONS
1. Do Kathy’s responses indicate her desire to rationalize and save face? If so, how might these motivators affect her behavior?
2. Why was Kathy treated so gently?
3. Did acting calm and cool help Kathy in her deception? Give specific examples of times when Kathy was given the opportunity to rationalize and save face.
4. How were the hidden persuaders applied in this inquiry?
Give specific examples.
THE CASE OF THE EVASIVE EMBEZZLER
Background
The owner-operator of a small grocery store, which grosses about $500,000 annually, noticed unusual shortages in store income. He contacted me in the hopes of determining the cause of his losses, which he estimated to be excessive. Arrangements were made to interview most of the employees of the store in an effort to determine the cause of those mysterious shortages.
The store owner thought employee theft might be involved, and he described in detail the store operations, policies, and personnel. We decided that employee interviews would take place two days after all of the employees were apprised of the investigation.
Several employees cooperated with the investigation, but one tried to avoid the interview. On the morning of her scheduled
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appointment, she turned in her store keys and announced her resignation. After learning of her refusal to be interviewed, I decided to telephone her and seek her cooperation. Her telephone was busy, so I decided to visit her at home. Based on information I had received and her efforts to avoid me, I decided that my interaction with her would be an interrogation rather than an interview. I was convinced of her involvement in the store’s losses. My goal was to gain an admission or confession from her.
I rang the doorbell for her apartment, identified myself to her, and followed her up the stairs to the apartment she shared with her husband and two children. As we went up the stairs, she told me that she was on the telephone and that she would only be a minute. Dogs were barking loudly, and the television was on as I waited near the door inside the apartment. She ended her telephone conversation and asked me to be seated.
She closed the door to the apartment and sat across the room from me. The family cat was walking around the living room and came near me; I petted the cat as I began the interaction.
Although I identified myself to her at the entrance door, I made certain that she knew my name and purpose so as to avoid confusion during the interaction.
Unknown to her, I was recording the entire interaction on an audiocassette for my own protection and to use for analysis.
The use of such a recording device is not legal in all jurisdictions. The text of that interrogation follows. Obviously missing from the transcript is the subtle nonverbal communication that is an essential part of every interaction. However, you can envi-sion the tactics used to gain both compliance and a farewell
“thank you” from the subject as I left the apartment. Only she and I were present during the interrogation, which took approximately forty-five minutes to complete. As it turned out, making the recording was quite valuable to both the store owner and myself. The woman later made a claim against the store owner, and I was required to testify in a wrongful termination hearing. Without the recording, it would have been my word against hers. She claimed that I had treated her badly and
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had misrepresented the results of the interrogation. She lost her claim, primarily because I produced the recording for the medi-ator to hear.
The Interrogation
Me: Is this a good place to sit?
Subject: Sure.
Me: Okay. Just wanted to explain to you what’s going on and so forth, and explain any questions that need to be talked over and that sort of stuff. I’m Chuck Yeschke, and I’m a private investigator, and I’m talking to the employees.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: And trying to resolve the shortages that have occurred there.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Apparently, there’s several thousand dollars’ shortages over the past year or whatever.
Subject: Yeah.
Me: And I don’t know if he had an opportunity to explain it to you as well as I hoped that he would.
Subject: He didn’t. No. He just said there were shortages in June, and there was again shortages in October.
Me: Okay.
Subject: And that’s all he said.
Me: Okay. And then recently, he has been taking a videotape of things going on.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: A very, very revealing videotape which you may or may not have known about.
Subject: No, I didn’t.
Me: Okay. What I recommended is that he handle it quietly and in-house.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay. If at all possible, now my intention is not to embarrass you in any way but certainly to try to resolve this as soon as we can and, you know, work it out.
Subject: Uh-huh, okay.
Me: Okay.
Subject: I don’t know if you knew that I quit?
Me: Okay, well you’ve quit?
Subject: Yes!
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Me: Okay, all right. Yes, I got the impression that there was some discussion and he said he was busy with some customers and he was apparently somewhat upset about the discussion. It’s not my place to be upset because he’s emotionally involved, and so are you and so forth. I’m an outside person. So, what I wanted to do with our discussion today was to talk about merchandise that you’ve walked off with and not paid for. Let me be sure we understand each other, okay? I’ve told him that I would prefer to work it out with you and resolve it.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: So that there’s no doubt as to your cooperation, I’m recommending he not go to the police and make any charge.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Against anyone. That’s where I’m coming from, okay? Just to be right up-front with you, okay? There’s specific things we have recorded, and I’ve been involved for a certain period of time, anyway.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: So, what I’m looking to do is to resolve, as comfortably as possible for everybody, what involvement they have had with walking off with product, okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: And just to mention specifically, just so you know where I’m coming from. Just a portion of what I have indicated here. On the first of November as currently as 6:00 P.M. in the evening, a bag of groceries, okay, Old Dutch Potato Chips, and nothing written up but yet the videotape shows the bag leaving in your possession.
Okay?
Subject: There was lettuce; there was tomatoes.
Me: Well, okay. Let me be sure! I don’t want to press you!
Subject: Yeah, I feel that way though! You got to understand . . .
Me: I do understand that.
Subject: . . . I did pay for it that day!
Me: Okay. Well, it’s not written up anywhere! Okay!
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, okay. There was a thorough search of all records, and there was nothing paid for! Okay?
Subject: I did though!
Me: Yeah, well, although that’s something we need to verify that would have to come out in court, you see. Okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
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Me: All right. Which I think he’s willing to do, but I’m saying no!
Hold off! I’m trying to say whatever you have not paid for, let’s get that resolved and at least indicate your willingness to pay that back and get this straightened out. That’s where I’m coming from!
All right? I just don’t believe it’s, you know, thousands and thousands. I don’t believe that! All right?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Because I have specific knowledge of
who probably has walked off with probably thousands.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, not you, all right?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: I’m not putting that on you!
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: But whatever there is, let’s nail that down. Let’s get that cleared up so there is no doubt at all where you stand and at least say, hey I’m willing to pay that back and get this straightened out!
I’m sorry about that, okay!
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: That’s what I’m trying to say. I like to be in between here and mediate a little bit so he doesn’t go too far and you don’t get into any bad position! Okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: All right, and then currently, just to mention these two instances.
The second of November, a bag of groceries, Tampax, some sauce, French bread, football stickers, and some tablets. Anyway, now, it’s an eight-dollar variety of things definitely not on tape, definitely not rung up, definitely not paid for, but gone and in your possession.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: See, that alone is a misdemeanor, all right?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: That definitely could be called an embezzlement, it could be a larceny, and it could be a lot of different charges that could be brought by the owner.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, I’m saying back off, give you a chance to straighten things out. Can we do that?
Subject: Yeah.
Me: Okay, what I’m looking to do is to verify with you what you know you’ve walked off with and you know you haven’t paid for, all right? Just right up front, I’d like to do that, all right?
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Subject: Okay.
Me: All right. What would be the total amount of any merchandise that you have not paid for? You know, a little bit here, a little bit there, okay? I’m not saying you’re carting it off with cases or back-ing your car up or anything like that, all right? I’m looking at the total picture as best we possibly can, all right? What would that come to if we were to add that up—to look at a total figure as close to the truth as we can come to? We’ll put it all in one spot, and we’ll say, all right, this is worth . . . whatever that would be? Let’s verify to the best of your ability, all right? What would that come to?
Would it be two or three thousand dollars’ worth? But I don’t think so!
Subject: It wouldn’t be that high!
Me: Okay, all right, yeah. What I’m talking about is something that we can say is the total maximum, indicate you know this is it, no more than a ceiling limit. What would that come to? If you were to add up the total bits and pieces here and there all in one spot and put a price tag on it? As though, you know, you were to pay for it.
What would that come to as far as a value is concerned?
Subject: I don’t know. Because . . .
Me: Would it be as much as a thousand dollars?
Subject: No.
Me: Okay, all right. Well now, we have established . . .
Subject: You can’t even say a hundred dollars. I can’t even say . . .
Me: I don’t know. I’m not going to fool around with it. I don’t care what it is, all right! I’m saying, let’s get that straightened out, whatever it is. If it’s under a thousand, you know, then we’re dealing with something that can be handled, okay?
Subject: Okay.
Me: If it’s a few hundred dollars, well fine. Let’s get that straight, all right?
Subject: Okay.
Me: Whatever it is, and I don’t care what it is. I just want to be able to say—all right, her intention is honorable; she wants to get it straightened out, all right, all right? Hold off, I’m going to say.
That’s my first impression to him is, let me talk to her, anyway. Just settle down, okay. He’s an excitable guy.
Subject: Yeah!
Me: So, you say it could not be over a thousand. You worked there for how long?
Subject: It will be a year.
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Me: Okay, say a year. If it’s a dollar a day. Do you follow what I’m trying to say?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: A dollar a day, work two hundred days, follow?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: A dollar a day, that’s four quarters’ worth. What can you buy for a dollar?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: You know? Ah, one bag of groceries of little bitty stuff equals eight bucks, okay? Okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Well, the thing I’m looking at is, you know, if you took eight dollars like that. Small amount! The stuff is so, you know, outra-geously priced anywhere!
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Let’s say it’s eight dollars a week.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, fifty-two weeks a year, eight dollars at fifty-two weeks, what’s that come to? What does that come to?
Subject (laughing, embarrassed): Don’t know.
Me: I don’t know. I have a difficult time doing that in my mind, but let’s assume. What I’m trying to say is, I’m trying to figure what the total is. That’s all I’m doing with you.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: If we’re looking at fifty-two weeks at eight dollars a week.
We’ve got sixteen, and eight times five is forty—that’s $416.00, okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Okay, are you following what I’m saying to you? You know, if it’s a little bag here and a little bag there. You know what I mean?
Occasionally! And the average is that much per week. What would be the average per week? Would it be more than eight, less than eight? About what would it be? What’s the most at any one time?
Subject: You mean?
Me: Walked off with, didn’t pay for, yeah. What would be the most at any one time? At any one time in the past year if you would look at the total picture and say the biggest bag of whatever you took out was how much? To the best of your knowledge.
Subject: Well, I can’t say that because I always paid for my stuff.
Me: Well . . .
Subject: And even those two days, I did pay for it. I paid for it earlier. I knew in my mind what I was going to pick up.
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Me: Well, let me be sure you understand something.
Subject: I can’t say I took something out without paying for it no matter what size bag it was.
Me: Yeah, well, well . . .
Subject: Because I didn’t do that.
Me: Well, that’s not the way it is, okay.
Subject: It is, though!
Me: The problem . . .
Subject: As far as that check proving that I paid for everything, except maybe for those two days, but I’ve got numerous checks here. [Not knowing what to say exactly to convince me that she did not steal, she tripped over her words and made an admission pertaining to not paying.]
Me: I understand, I understand that! What I’m trying to do is establish what the maximum would be that you have not paid for, all right? That’s where I’m coming from, okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: Loud and clear.
Subject: Well, one day he questioned me and he said, uh-huh, he knew exactly what I had. You had a cheeseburger . . .
Me: Let me do this?
Subject: Wait a minute, let me finish.
Me (resigned): Sure.
Subject: Bag of potato chips and a carton of milk, and I said yes.
And he said, I didn’t see you put any money in [not audible].
Me: Yeah.
Subject: And I said fine, go check, go look at my charge account.
Me: Uh-huh.
Subject: I have a charge account there. He looked, and it was there, and [he] came back and said, yes you do.
Me (sighing): All right, what I’m trying to do now is this, okay?
Subject: Okay.
Me (speaking slowly): Okay. What I’m trying to do is trying to be in the middle and try to work it out.
Subject (consolingly): I know, I know. Obviously, it’s not easy to be stuck in the middle!
Me: Okay, I’d like to avoid as much hassle as possible, okay?
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: For you and for him and so forth.
Subject: Uh-huh.
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Me: He is determined to get this straightened out, okay, and I don’t want to see anything go beyond what it has to.
Subject: Yeah.
Me: Okay? I’d just like to appeal to you to get things worked out.
Subject: Yeah.
Me: All right, let me be sure you know where I’m coming from. I’m coming from over thirty years of experience as an investigator. It’s obviously clear to me that you walked off and didn’t pay for things. Okay? [Spoken in a factual way.] I’m just mentioning these couple, but there are other instances that we have taped on you.
[Implied I had a video of her stealing.] Okay? I’m not going to mention that.
Subject: Yeah.
Me: What I’m looking at is why should that come out in court unnecessarily, okay? I’m guaranteeing you that we have enough to go for prosecution. I’m saying to you, please let’s straighten out the truth. All right?
Subject: Okay.
Me: All right, I’m not here . . . combat is not what I’m looking for.
I’m saying, hey, here it is up front.
Subject: Uh-huh.
Me: You decide! If you say, go jump in the lake, what can I do?
Subject: Yeah.
Me: Then you see you’re deciding. I would just as soon that you decide, okay, for you to cause some action that’s not very pleasant.
Okay, what I’m saying is this now, okay. What I’m looking at is the total picture of all the merchandise that you have not paid for.
What would that come to, as far as you’re concerned? Oh, I’m looking here. I’m trying to figure out with you, please. If we’re looking at, you know, if it’s an eight-dollar type of thing once a week, you know, for fifty-two weeks, you know we’re looking at $416.00. [I presented myself as being stuck in the middle of this thing—uncomfortable.]