The Brief
Page 10
JUDGE:
Let the record show that the witness indicated Exhibit 2. Have a look at it Mr Sands please.
WITNESS:
That’s the one.
MR HOGG:
Show us how Plumber was holding it, please. (Witness takes exhibit) You are holding it at waist level with your right hand on the butt and the left supporting the barrels. Where was it pointing?
WITNESS:
Straight at the dead man, or at least, where he had been when he was upright.
MR HOGG:
What happened then?
WITNESS:
I ran up tae Plumber. He was, eh, stunned, like.
MR HOGG:
How do you mean?
WITNESS:
Well, he was, like, frozen in position. I shouted at him.
MR HOGG:
What did you shout?
WITNESS:
I cannae recall that now, “Let’s go!” or something like that.
MR HOGG:
Did he react?
WITNESS:
Not immediately. I had tae grab him, turn him round. We ran back inside, grabbed the money, and left. I’m sure he didnae mean tae do it. It was just the panic.
JUDGE:
It’s for the jury to decide if he meant to do it or not, Mr Sands, not for you. Please don’t make comments like that. You are here to answer questions.
WITNESS:
Certainly, my Lord. I just wanted, eh, tae help him out if I could.
MR HOGG:
Wait there Mr Sands; there will be more questions for you.
[End of examination in chief]
Sands: Cross-examination
JUDGE:
Mr Holborne?
MR HOLBORNE:
Thank you my Lord. Mr Sands, who planned this robbery? (Pause). Mr Sands?
WITNESS:
We did it together, Plumber and me.
MR HOLBORNE:
Mr Plumber was the driver of the getaway car, wasn’t he?
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
And he planned the getaway, isn’t that right?
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
But he didn’t plan anything else did he?
WITNESS:
Eh…not as such, no.
MR HOLBORNE:
It was you who had the idea, and you took the proposal to Mr Plumber. You recruited him, rather than he recruited you.
WITNESS:
Aye, that’s right.
MR HOLBORNE:
And as far as you were concerned, two imitation guns were to be taken on this robbery?
WITNESS:
That’s right.
MR HOLBORNE:
You’ve told us that you were responsible for obtaining them?
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
So you know where one can obtain such things?
WITNESS:
Aye, I do. Lots of shops sell them.
MR HOLBORNE:
What shop did you buy them from?
WITNESS:
Er, I didnae buy them from a shop.
MR HOLBORNE:
You got them through less orthodox channels.
WITNESS:
You could say that.
MR HOLBORNE:
Illegally?
WITNESS:
I don’t know.
MR HOLBORNE:
You got them from a man in a laundrette. That’s not likely to be a lawful source is it Mr Sands?
WITNESS:
No.
MR HOLBORNE:
That “unorthodox channel” is the sort of channel that could have provided you with a real gun, had you wanted one.
WITNESS:
I don’t know. I didnae ask him.
MR HOLBORNE:
If you were only after imitation guns, which you have noted can be bought legitimately from “lots of shops”, why did you get them from a man you met in a laundrette?
WITNESS:
(pause) I don’t know.
MR HOLBORNE:
It was not because you wanted a real gun too, and that had to be obtained illegally?
WITNESS:
No.
MR HOLBORNE:
Why then?
WITNESS:
I don’t know. I suppose I didnae want the police asking at shops an’ that.
MR HOLBORNE:
Let’s move on. How did you feel about Mr Plumber’s having taken a real gun with him?
WITNESS:
I’ve already said. I wouldnae have gone had I known.
MR HOLBORNE:
By that, I take it that you disapprove of real firearms.
WITNESS:
Aye, I do. They’re liable to go off.
MR HOLBORNE:
You must have been furious with Plumber then, for taking the shotgun and for using it?
JUDGE:
That’s two questions Mr Holborne. First, Mr Sands, were you furious that he had taken the shotgun?
WITNESS:
If I’d known before we went, I wouldnae have been exactly furious, but not happy. I woulda told him to leave it behind.
JUDGE:
Were you furious that he had used it?
WITNESS:
I couldnae believe what he’d done. He had no need to. Once the guy had seen the imitation, he woulda stopped. They’re no’ armed, those men. Aye, I was furious.
MR HOLBORNE:
Why?
WITNESS:
You ask me why? Jesus, the guy had been shot in the back. Robbery’s one thing – murder, that’s something else altogether.
MR HOLBORNE:
Your concern then was that you might be implicated in a murder that you had no part in?
WITNESS:
Exactly.
MR HOLBORNE:
Did you express that concern to Mr Plumber?
WITNESS:
I don’t follow.
MR HOLBORNE:
You’ve told us that you were unhappy that he took a real gun along with him, and furious that he used it. Did you tell Plumber that?
WITNESS:
Well, I gave him a right bollocking in the car, but what could I do? He’d already shot the guy by the time I knew what was going on.
MR HOLBORNE:
So by the time you are in the car, your principal concern is to get away.
WITNESS:
Obviously.
MR HOLBORNE:
You don’t want to hang around where someone has been shot?
WITNESS:
Correct.
MR HOLBORNE:
You don’t want to be tied in any way to a murder of which you say you are innocent.
WITNESS:
Correct.
MR HOLBORNE:
Where did you go immediately after the robbery?
WITNESS:
To my flat.
MR HOLBORNE:
What did you go there for?
WITNESS:
To divi up.
MR HOLBORNE:
Did you go there directly?
WITNESS:
We did. Well, we changed cars once on the way, and dumped the guns and balaclavas and that.
MR HOLBORNE:
Where did you do that?
WITNESS:
We left them locked in the car, and scrapped the car.
MR HOLBORNE:
When you say “locked in the car”, it is true is it not, that they were left hidden under the rear seat.
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
And when you say “scrapped”, what do you mean?
WITNESS:
A compacter. We sold the car tae a scrap metal dealer I know, and he agreed to squash it. He didnae do it though. He got greedy.
MR HOLBORNE:
I’m sorry?
WITNESS:
Well, we paid him over the odds to squash it, but he obviousl
y took a fancy to it, ‘cos it was still in the yard when the police went there.
MR HOLBORNE:
I see. And how did you get back to your flat from the scrap dealer?
WITNESS:
In ma own car.
MR HOLBORNE:
You scrapped the Rover before you went back to your flat?
WITNESS:
Yes. I’ve already said.
MR HOLBORNE:
Within minutes of the robbery?
WITNESS:
Not minutes, no.
MR HOLBORNE:
How long then?
WITNESS:
Within half an hour.
MR HOLBORNE:
That’s thirty minutes.
WITNESS:
Okay, within thirty minutes.
MR HOLBORNE:
And the reason you did that, I assume, was because you didn’t want to risk being found in possession of incriminating evidence one moment longer than necessary.
WITNESS:
You could say.
MR HOLBORNE:
I do say, Mr Sands. What do you say?
WITNESS:
Well, if you like. It’s just common sense. I didnae want tae be connected to any of it.
MR HOLBORNE:
Indeed. The one item of evidence that you would have been most concerned to get away from, would have been the shotgun.
WITNESS:
Not necessarily.
MR HOLBORNE:
But everything else ties you to a robbery. The shotgun ties you to a murder.
WITNESS:
Well?
MR HOLBORNE:
So the item you would most want to get rid of is the shotgun. (Pause) Isn’t that right, Mr Sands?
WITNESS:
I suppose so.
MR HOLBORNE:
We know from the police evidence that Mr Plumber gave them the name of the scrap yard, and that they recovered the car, as you say, before it was compacted.
WITNESS:
So?
MR HOLBORNE:
They found the two imitation handguns, two masks, and some pairs of handcuffs, but no shotgun. What did you do with it?
WITNESS:
I didnae do anything wi’ it. Plumber had it. I never touched the thing.
MR HOLBORNE:
So you placed the other items under the seat?
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
And locked up?
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
But you did not put the shotgun there too?
WITNESS:
No.
MR HOLBORNE:
Why not Mr Sands?
WITNESS:
It wasnae mine.
MR HOLBORNE:
But you have just told the jury that the thing you most wanted to distance yourself from was that shotgun. There you are getting rid of all the other evidence, but you keep the shotgun. Why?
WITNESS:
I told you, I didnae keep the shotgun. Plumber had it.
MR HOLBORNE:
And you let him bring it into your car, driving with it to your flat, when you wanted it nowhere near you? You couldn’t have wanted to distance yourself that much from it: you let him hang onto it and travel around with it in your car!
JUDGE:
I think counsel’s asking you a question Mr Sands, although he’s not phrased it as such. Why did you permit Plumber to bring the shotgun with him in your car?
WITNESS:
I don’t know. I just did.
MR HOLBORNE:
What happened when you arrived at your flat?
WITNESS:
We divi’ed up the money.
MR HOLBORNE:
That must have taken some time, counting out and dividing £138,000.
WITNESS:
Maybe.
MR HOLBORNE:
How long?
WITNESS:
I don’t know; a coupla hours maybe.
MR HOLBORNE:
And you let Plumber leave the shotgun in your car all that time.
WITNESS:
No.
MR HOLBORNE:
In your flat then?
WITNESS:
(pause) I cannae remember what happened to it.
MR HOLBORNE:
From when do you not remember?
WITNESS:
I don’t know. I’m not even sure I saw it in the car at all. Maybe he did leave it at the scrapyard, but someone found it.
JUDGE:
Mr Sands, in answer to a question from me, not two minutes ago, you said you didn’t know why you let Plumber bring the shotgun in your own car, you just did. So you must remember it at that stage.
WITNESS:
I must remember it then, yes.
MR HOLBORNE:
So you remember it in your car. I suppose from what you’ve already told us, you would not have been happy about it being there?
WITNESS:
Not really, no.
MR HOLBORNE:
Even less happy about it being brought into your flat?
WITNESS:
Aye, correct.
MR HOLBORNE:
Why did you not tell Mr Plumber to get rid of it at the scrapyard?
WITNESS:
I didnae think to. I must have been in too much of a panic.
MR HOLBORNE:
Yes, but your panic was because of the shotgun. Are you really telling this jury that although you wanted nothing to do with the shotgun, and having had the opportunity to get rid of it, you allowed Mr Plumber to bring it into your car and maybe your flat?
WITNESS:
I don’t know. I suppose so.
JUDGE:
Mr Holborne, would that be a convenient point at which to break for luncheon?
MR HOLBORNE:
It would, my Lord.
JUDGE:
Two o’clock, members of the jury. Please keep in mind the warning I have been giving you: do not discuss this case with anyone outside your number.
•
R. v. Plumber – Transcript of Evidence
Friday, 18 November 1960 (continued)
Sands: Cross-examination (continued)
JUDGE:
Are you ready, Mr Holborne?
MR HOLBORNE:
Yes, thank you, my lord. Mr Sands: when you were first arrested for the offence of robbery, you were interviewed under caution, were you not?
WITNESS:
Aye, I was.
MR HOLBORNE:
And the police officers took notes of that interview, didn’t they?
WITNESS:
Aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
Have you read those notes?
WITNESS:
I have.
MR HOLBORNE:
Your barrister has not suggested that the police officers made any mistakes when recording your interview. May I take it that you do not dispute their summary of what was said?
WITNESS:
No, I don’t dispute it. It’s a fair summary.
MR HOLBORNE:
During the course of that interview, you are recorded as having said there was a third man on the robbery, and that it was he who took and used the shotgun.
WITNESS:
I said that, aye.
MR HOLBORNE:
That was a lie, wasn’t it?
WITNESS:
It was, but I only said it because he threatened me if I didnae.
JUDGE:
You pointed at the defendant. Are you saying that Plumber threatened you?
WITNESS:
I am. Well, ma family.
MR HOLBORNE:
When did he make this threat?
WITNESS:
On the telephone, the day after the robbery.
MR HOLBORNE:
And what, exactly, did he say?
WITNESS:
He said that he reckoned we might be caught, and that if we were, we shou
ld both give the same story, about the third man.
MR HOLBORNE:
Did you agree to this plan?
WITNESS:
No’ at first. Only after he made the threats. He said that if I didnae agree, he would see to ma family.
MR HOLBORNE:
He wasn’t going to see to you personally?
WITNESS:
You gotta be joking. Him?
MR HOLBORNE:
I take it that you are not personally afraid of Mr Plumber?
WITNESS: