Nicotine was seeping into Phil Roberts’s system through the patch on his arm. It wasn’t much nicotine. If he could bottom this lad quickly, maybe he could still hold out.
Roberts… the other officer present is…
Jacobs. Detective Constable Jacobs.
Bob Jacobs was from the Serious Crime Squad. It was the first time he and Phil Roberts had interviewed together.
PACE — the Police And Criminal Evidence Act — demanded that interviews be recorded. Each interview could last no longer than three quarters of an hour, determined by the length of the one-sided, 45–minute tapes. The recorder was a twin-deck machine, requiring two tapes recording die interview simultaneously. The tapes came individually packaged, to be unwrapped in the room. At the end, one would be retained for police use, the other sealed with a wrap-around sticky label and signed by an interviewing officer and the suspect’s lawyer. A buzzer sounded when the machine began recording, and sounded again a few seconds before the tapes finished.
Roberts. Now, what’s your full name?
Bobby. Robert Thompson.
Roberts. And what’s your date of birth, Robert?
Bobby. Twenty-third, I think, of the eighth.
Roberts. Yeah, is it August?
Bobby. Eighty-two.
Roberts. Say yes. You nodded your head there.
Bobby. Yes. (The voice is slight, timid and unbroken.)
Roberts. Okay. Right, the date is the eighteenth of February, 1993, the time on my watch is now 17.57 hours. That means it’s three minutes to six, all right. Also present in this room is your mother, if you could introduce yourself…
Ann. Ann Thompson.
Roberts. … and your legal representative…
Lee. Jason Lee from Paul Rooney and Company.
Lee is a smart young clerk from Rooneys, a city firm of solicitors. He works out of the branch office on Stanley Road in Bootle, a writs throw from the Strand, and has been called out because he’s worked for the Thompson family before. He got out of bed to answer the phone, first thing this morning, and went down to Walton Lane. He’s playing it by ear, waiting to see what unfolds.
Roberts. Right, this interview is being conducted in an interview room at Walton Lane Police Station …
The interview room, just off the bridewell area at the back of the station, is barely big enough for the five people it now contains. There is one small, reinforced window. The tape recorder is fixed to the wall, with the microphone suspended from a hook just to the right. Beneath the recorder is a formica-topped table around which the group are seated. Bob Jacobs is nearest the mike, next to Phil Roberts, who sits sideways on, dose up to, and facing Bobby, to establish an intimacy between them. Bobby’s feet touch the ground, but only just. Phil Roberts will notice that he seems to shuffle them back and forth when he is being evasive. Ann is next to Bobby, and then Jason Lee, leaning on the table, making notes.
Roberts. Now, at the conclusion of this interview I will give you a notice, right, which will explain what’s going to happen to the tapes after, do you understand? Right, now I want you to listen to this. You are not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, right, but whatever you do say may be given in evidence — do you understand? Right, that means what you say here, you don’t have to say anything, right, but it’s entirely up to you. You say yes, don’t nod your head. Say yes.
Bobby. Yes.
Roberts. Do you understand?
Jacobs. Just that you understand…
Roberts. Are you all right? Do you understand what I mean? Erm, and that, er, if you do say something it may go to court, may be given in evidence. Do you understand all that?
That was the caution. It has to be repeated at the start of every interview. The officers and the lawyer have to be satisfied that Bobby knows what it means.
Jacobs. So you understand what…
Roberts. You’re shaking your head again there, Robert.
Bobby. Yeah.
Roberts. What do they call you? Robert or Bobby?
Bobby. All of them.
Jacobs. Bobby, isn’t it?
Roberts. All of them. Bobby’s a more friendly name, do you agree? You did it again.
Bobby. Yeah.
Roberts. All right, then.
Jacobs. But, yeah, what we’ll be doing is asking you some questions, and you don’t have to answer them if you don’t want to, right. But, if you do answer them, then they can be brought to court at a later stage. Do you understand that Bobby, yes?
Roberts. You nodded your head again.
Bobby. Yeah.
Roberts. Mrs Thompson, are you all right?
Ann. I’ve got a headache.
Roberts. Pardon?
Ann. I’ve got a terrible headache.
Roberts. You’ve got a terrible headache. Are you all right to, are we all right to continue with the interview? Yes? You’re nodding your head now.
Ann. Yeah.
Roberts. Righto, okay. Right Bobby, I came round to your house this morning, didn’t I?
Bobby. Yeah.
Roberts. And what did I say to you?
Bobby. I’m arresting you.
Roberts. Correct. What for?
Bobby. James.
Roberts. James, what about James?
Bobby. That you said on suspicion of murdering him.
Jacobs. That’s right.
Roberts. That’s well remembered, very well remembered. That’s good. I’m going to tell you something else now, which is more or less the same. I’m also arresting you, right, for abducting James, okay?
Bobby. What does abducting mean?
Roberts. On suspicion of abducting, meaning taking away from.
Bobby I never took him.
Phil Roberts cautions Bobby for the abduction of James Bulger. He doesn’t have to say anything, but if he does say something…
Bobby says yes, he understands this, and Roberts begins questioning him about last Friday, about how his day began. Bobby describes calling for Gummy Gee, meeting Jon on County Road, and going to the Strand. When they begin talking over the route Bobby and Jon took to the Strand there is some confusion as the two officers fail to recognise Bobby’s references to local places.
Bobby says that, once at the Strand, he and Jon ran round, going through shops, though he can’t remember which shops they went through, and then went to the library. When the officers wonder how long this took, and whether he was hungry, Bobby remembers going to McDonalds. Asked if he ate at all that day, after breakfast, Bobby jumps forward to the evening when they ran the message for the girl in the video shop, and Jon’s mum came and battered him. That was at about she o’clock.
Roberts says he’s struggling with the time. Bobby wants to know what he means, struggling. Roberts says he’s trying to find out what time it is.
They talk about the library, and Bobby says they were in the kids’ corner. Then Roberts asks if Bobby knows about James. Bobby says he took flowers over yesterday. Roberts says did Bobby see James at the Strand. Bobby says, yeah. In the morning. On the Friday. When he and Jon were going up the escalators. He was with his mum and he was wearing a blue coat. He can’t remember the colour of James’ hair. He thinks it was black or something.
Roberts moves the time frame forward to the video shop, asking about Susan Venables and why she had gone after Bobby and Jon. There has been no change of tone, but Roberts’s heart is pumping at Bobby’s mention of seeing James and his mother. Surely, this means… no, keep cool, tunnel vision, don’t show any reaction.
They talk for a while about the clothes that the two boys were wearing that day. Descriptions of jackets and shoes. And can you remember anything else that James was wearing? Just the coat. He had never seen him before, and never saw him again, except in the paper.
Bobby is asked if he understands the difference between truth and lies, and says he does. What team does he support? Everton. If they said Everton won ten nil last Saturday, what would that be? A lie. If they s
aid there were five people in the room, what would that be? The truth.
Bobby agrees that he knows the difference between right and wrong. He agrees it’s wrong that James should have been killed.
He didn’t take special notice of James in the Strand, he was just looking round. Roberts thinks that looking over the escalator it would be hard to look over and see. Over the sea? Over the escalators. You said the sea then. No escalators.
They go back and forth, over this sighting of James and his mother. Where they were standing, where Bobby and Jon were standing. How Bobby looked at James and his mother. Then Bobby describes leaving the Strand, going to the library, and going back towards home. It was gening dark then. They didn’t call at any other shops.
The buzzer goes. End of interview. 18.40 hours. Phil Roberts comes out of the interview room. Give me a packet of fags, now.
■
At Lower Lane, the first interview with Jon Venables begins five minutes after Bobby’s has started, just after six o’clock. The procedure is identical, and though the interview room is slightly larger, it is otherwise the same as Walton Lane’s. It could be the exact same formica-topped table, in the comer, below the window. The tape recorder, the mike on a hook, Jon, his mother Susan, their solicitor Lawrence Lee — nearly 40, balding slightly, office out of town, on the West Derby Road — and the interviewing officers, Mark Dale and George Scott.
Jon is very intimidated. His voice little more than a nervous squeak.
Scott. Do you understand what the truth is, Jon?
Jon. Yeah.
Scott. Go on, you tell us what you think the truth is.
Jon. Something that’s true what you done.
Scott. And so if you were telling lies what would you be doing?
Jon. I don’t know.
Scott. Explain what you think by what telling lies means.
Dale. Is telling lies wrong?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. Okay, that’s important isn’t it?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. So if I said Jon Venables had a green face and pink hair that would be a lie?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. Okay, so you understand what a lie is, don’t you?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. And you understand what the truth is, don’t you?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. It’s the opposite, okay. Now we’ve never met before this morning, have we?
Jon. No.
Dale. So I don’t know anything about you, do I?
Jon. No.
Dale. So I’m going to have to ask you some questions about yourself.
Jon. All right.
Jon describes his two homes, his brother and sister. He says he’s happy at school, but sometimes the lads bully him, especially one lad. But that lad bullies everybody. Jon lists his friends, including Robert Thompson, and says he doesn’t go near him at school, because Robert causes trouble. They’re in the same class, but don’t sit together. Robert calls people names. He likes skirting. He doesn’t have many friends because he’s too naughty. He only plays with girls now because he can’t play with anyone else.
Jon had been fighting Robert when they first met and became friends, before Jon knew he sagged off and that. Jon only sees Robert out of school when Jon’s staying at his dad’s. At Norris Green he plays out on his bike with other children. He usually has to go in quite early, but with Robert he comes in dead late, because Robert says they can do good things, like going on the railway. Robert stays out all night sometimes, going down the entries, lighting fires to keep warm, walking on the railway. He said he walked all the way to London once, but Jon doesn’t believe him.
Dale. Would you say that he was your good friend?
Jon. No.
Dale. Why not?
Jon. Oh, I know, ’cos he gets me into trouble and that.
Dak. Don’t you think you get yourself into trouble?
Jon. Yeah.
Dak. Really?
Jon. Yeah.
Dak. So that’s not fair on Robert, is it?
Jon. No.
Dak. ’Cos you’re blaming him a little bit, aren’t you?
Jon. Sometimes I tell him to do things and he does.
Dale. So you’re as bad as him really, aren’t you, in that respect?
Jon. No, when I say to him sag, he doesn’t. He said, ’cos you won’t, you’ll get a bad education
Dale. Who said that?
Jon. Me, and he says, all right then, and the teachers kidded him up. He said, she said if you stay a whole week at school I’ll give you a prize at the end of the week, and she never.
Jon says he is not Robert’s best friend any more, but he was once, when Robert gave him things, like toy trolls.
Dak. Well, what are they?
Jon. You know, the things that have the, their hair sticks up, you know them little thingies, them little you know them troll things where their hair sticks up in different colours.
Dak. Are they a doll, though? Are they like a little doll?
Jon. Yeah.
Lee. Gonks.
Dak. Oh, like they used to call gonks years ago?
Jon. Yeah.
Dak. Right.
Jon. It shows you their bum and that.
Dale. Do they? That’s a bit rude, isn’t it?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. I hope you don’t look?
Jon. No.
He didn’t know at first that Robert was robbing them. Jon threw them away, but you were supposed to collect them.
Dale. Robert collects them?
Jon. Yeah. He’s much of a girl.
Dale. Mmm.
Jon. He’s much of a girl, he sucks dummies.
Dale. You think he’s a girl, do you?
Jon. And sucks his thumb.
Dale. Well, that’s not so bad, sucking your thumb. I mean, you shouldn’t do it, but
Jon. No, he does it all the time.
Sometimes they played out together with Robert’s mates, and sometimes they went off on their own, down the entries, walking on the walls, and climbing over into people’s gardens. He knew it was naughty, but it was fun. He had only gone pinching with Robert once, and that was last Friday.
They talk then about robbing from shops and being on County Road. Jon says Robert sags off nearly every day, and once he had gone to the Strand with Ryan, and lost him, and the teacher had to go and and collect Ryan. Jon never sags without Robert, except one time, at his old school. Normally, with Robert, he runs out of school at playtime. Except last Friday, when they didn’t go to school first. Sagging is something to do. They can’t usually go out at playtime because they’re naughty in class. Also, he’s slow at his work, and has to stay in at breaks and finish it. He does like school, though.
As the tape finishes, Mark Dale says he’ll put another tape in, and talk to Jon about the three times he’s bunked off since he’s been in the third year.
In the quarter of an hour between interviews, Jon has a Mars Bar and a tin of Coke, and the second tape starts running at seven o’clock. Dale begins to talk Jon through his sagging experiences.
In September he had been in the park with Robert when they were found by a boy and a girl who knew Robert. They said they were taking him home, and Robert began crying because he didn’t want to go. So the boy and girl picked him up and carried him. Jon went back to his dad’s, but his dad was out, so he went to wait with friends.
They had been going to rob some milk out of the dairy that day, but a man saw them and shouted. They just wandered around Walton.
The next time, they had run out of school at the first break. It was the idea of both of them to sag, but it was Jon’s idea first. He didn’t go home for 12 hours, until half ten at night. They went to County Road and robbed, calling people names out the shops and that, stealing crisps and drinks from Kwik Save. Robert poured a tin of Roses down inside his coat. Jon ate about ten and felt sick.
They went into the wallpaper shop and Robert stole some borders.
Robert said he was going to throw the borders, and Jon said that was a silly thing to do. Dale wonders if he really said that, or actually said it would be a laugh. Jon laughs. Dale says, you thought it was a laugh, didn’t you? Mmm, a bit, says Jon. You blame Robert all the time, don’t you? It’s me sometimes.
Dale. Do you think it’s exciting being with Robert, really?
Jon. Yeah, a bit.
Dale. Be honest, be honest with me.
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. Is it, do you do things with him you wouldn’t normally do with your other friends?
Jon. Yeah, I wouldn’t do anything with me other friends.
Dale. Why?
Jon. Because they’re good.
Dale. Are they?
Jon. Yeah.
Dale. Would you do these things on your own?
Jon. No.
Dale. Why?
Jon. I’m too scared.
They go back to the day, and Jon tells how they had called for Michael Gee later, after the shops closed, and were in Walton Village messing around in the chippy, climbing the back gardens behind his dad’s old flat, going down the entries, knocking on doors and running away, playing in the bin yards. Robert had once asked Jon if he liked breaking in houses, but Jon had said no.
Finally, that night, Jon’s mum had found him and chased him in Walton Village. He stopped because he didn’t want to run away.
There had been another time, not long after that, when his mum found him, at two o’clock in the afternoon on County Road. He had not bunked off again, until last Friday, when they didn’t even go into school in the morning.
It had been Robert’s idea to sag. Jon had wanted to go to school, because he wanted to take the gerbils home, but Robert had said they could get the Where's Wally? books. What are they? There’s big pictures of different people, you’ve got to find this one person, you know, like somewhere in the picture. Lawrence Lee wants to know what the books are called. Jon says Where’s Wally? Lawrence Lee says Where Is Wally? Yeah. Ah, right.
The Sleep of Reason: The James Bulger Case Page 12