SB: Were you married?
KJ: I was already married.
SB: So you were exposed to the Jehovah’s Witnesses when you were a teenager.
KJ: Yes.
SB: But your parents felt this was something they didn’t want.
KJ: Right.
SB: So they dissuaded you. But it stayed with you internally. So when you had more independence and freedom, you got married young? KJ: Nineteen.
SB: Nineteen? My wife got married at nineteen. My mother got married at nineteen. It’s like a number in the family.
KJ: Mmmm.
SB: So you got married at nineteen and you moved with your husband to Indiana straight away?
KJ: To Gary, Indiana? No, when we first got married we stayed and two months later we moved to Gary, Indiana.
SB: So it was at that time that you went to find the Jehovah’s Witnesses again?
KJ: Yes, but it was, I guess, about ten or twelve years later.
SB: And what was the appeal for you? I know a little about it that I’ve read. Did you feel you found greater sincerity?
KJ: Well, what it is about Jehovah’s Witnesses is it’s a religion that goes strictly by the Bible and they believe in doing right. Like, if you commit adultery or anything like that, you get disfellowshipped. If you’re married and you commit adultery, which is wrong, then you get disfellowshipped from the religion. A lot of things make me believe in it. I believe in it because I believe it’s a true religion. I do. There’s a Creator who cares about you and then we have examining the scriptures daily.
SB: Every day you have something to read?
KJ: Aha.
SB: Old and New Testament?
KJ: Aha.
SB: And you take these books wherever you go?
KJ: Well, not that one [she points to a book]. But these are just testimonies by people about what they went through.
SB: You feel it’s based on the Bible so it’s very authentic. Therefore, it’s a true religion, so it really spoke to you. And you then formally converted?
KJ: No, I studied. You have to study the Bible.
SB: Did your husband walk this path with you?
KJ: He studied also but he didn’t become one. He thought it was too strict for him. My oldest daughter was baptized. Michael was at one time.
SB: No other kids?
KJ: No. No others.
SB: And why was that? Why some and not others?
KJ: I guess they did but I never forced anything on them. It was up to their own free will if they wanted to be.
SB: So at a certain age you spoke to Michael about the religion and he took to it?
KJ: No but, I guess he wanted to and he went with me to the Kingdom Hall.
SB: Were you proud of the fact that he became a Jehovah’s Witness? KJ: I was very proud that he became a Jehovah’s Witness.
SB: And by this time was he already famous? Or he was just a boy?
KJ: He was already famous, in a way. Yes, he was famous because The Jackson 5 was very famous at first.
SB: Right, so this was that age already with The Jackson 5.
KJ: Right, right.
SB: But he was the only one of The Jackson 5 who was baptized? KJ: He was the only one.
SB: And he used to go with you on Sundays to church?
KJ: Oh yes, aha. And he used to go on his own.
SB: I asked Frank to show you this beautiful article that Michael and I wrote about Pioneering and the Sabbath. A beautiful article. [It was published on the well-known spirituality website Beliefnet.com.]
KJ: Oh, really?
SB: Oh, it was covered everywhere.
KJ: Oh, really?
SB: Oh, it was huge. It’s a shame he doesn’t show you these things. It was a beautiful article.
KJ: Oh why didn’t he show it to me?
SB: It’s a beautiful article about how he loved the Sabbath.
KJ: Mhmm.
SB: So he would go with you. He told me that what he liked about them was that they never treated him differently. That although he was now a star, they would call him Brother Jackson.
KJ: Aha.
SB: They would go out of their way not to treat him differently, not less than, but not more, than any other.
KJ: Yes.
SB: Did you see that as well?
KJ: Yes, they did. That’s how they think. There’s a lot of entertainers that are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can’t think of the name of the group, you know, Benson, Ronnie Loss. Just, I can go on and on with a lot of entertainers that are Jehovah’s Witness. And they treat them the same. They don’t treat them any different. Just like one of them.
SB: Did Michael like that? That he could just finally be himself?
KJ: Yes, I think so.
SB: He also told me that they were very good. That if reporters followed him to church they didn’t make a big deal about it. [laughing] In the article, we write jokingly “even reporters are children of God.”
KJ: [laughing] That’s true.
SB: Okay, so you have all these children, a few of them took to the religion and Michael was one of them, even though he was a big star. It has always seemed to me in our conversations that Michael has a natural spirituality, that he has a natural closeness to God. KJ: Yes, aha.
SB: Could you comment on that at all? Did you see that from an early age?
KJ: Aha.
SB: Did he pray before he went to sleep at night?
KJ: Yes, I believe he has. Like I have some children. . . I don’t know if they even, I don’t know, I can’t say because. . .
SB: Are you comfortable with talking about this?
KJ: I’m fine. But I know Michael is [spiritual]. He’s always been a quiet, loving child. And he just loved people, loved children. And we’d sit there and both of us, we’d just sit and cry when we saw. . . because it’s very sad and I knew then, you know. . . and he used to always tell me, “I know I can’t heal the whole world, Mother, but I can at least. . . I can make a start.”
SB: I was discussing this with Michael yesterday. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays.
KJ: No.
SB: And is there a reason for that?
KJ: Yes. . . Jesus’ death is . . . the only holiday that. . .
SB: Okay, so there’s Easter. Do you call it Easter or do you call it something else?
KJ: Uh, we don’t call it. . . we don’t celebrate Easter.
SB: That’s the resurrection. You celebrate the actual day that he died. KJ: Yes.
SB: Right, okay. Good Friday.
KJ: And that’s the only day he said to keep. Not the resurrection, he said.
SB: Do you read the Bible every day?
KJ: Yes.
SB: So this is. . . this is your life, your religion. It’s absolutely central to who you are.
KJ: Well, yes, in all the Kingdom Halls [I attend five meetings a week]. SB: Five meetings a week?
KJ: But you don’t have to meet. We have a meeting on Sunday night, which is where we go and they teach and we learn, things like that. You never stop learning the Bible.
SB: Right.
KJ: Do Jewish people read it all the time too?
SB: Absolutely. Oh absolutely, we read it. . .
KJ: After reading it day and night. I know you know all about that. SB: We read the bible every single day.
KJ: Aha.
SB: I mean, by this age already, I’m thirty-four years old, I’ve studied it my whole life. I know, I mean, I’m not trying to brag, but just from reading it I know a lot of it by heart by now.
KJ: Oh.
SB: At least the five Books of Moses, that is.
KJ: Aha.
SB: Which is what we focus on more than anything. More than Psalms or the prophets.
KJ: Right.
When Michael Left the Jehovah’s Witnesses
Shmuley Boteach: How did you feel when Michael began to feel distanced from the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Katherine Jackson: I fel
t really bad because it bothered me so much. I cried about it, I prayed about it. And I really felt bad about when he disfellowshipped himself from the religion. They didn’t disfellowship him. And he thought that would be better because he thought that he would be doing things and. . .
SB: But what was their exact objection? That he was a pop star and didn’t fit in anymore?
KJ: He would’ve fit in. But I guess, I really don’t know why he decided to disfellowship himself.
SB: He disfellowshipped himself.
KJ: Right.
SB: Up until that time he was still going with you to church on Sundays?
KJ: Yes.
SB: So he disfellowshipped himself and did he discuss it with you before he did that?
KJ: No. I heard that later. No, that’s what hurt so bad. Not that he was. . . I just didn’t want to see him disfellowship himself from the religion.
SB: He felt that would give him greater artistic freedom, probably. KJ: Probably so.
SB: Like with “Thriller” he had to do that thing at the beginning.
KJ: Aha.
As I related earlier, at the beginning of the “Thriller” music video there is a disclaimer which states that nothing portrayed in the video is an endorsement of the occult. As Michael explained it to me, he inserted the disclaimer at the insistence of the church.
SB: Did you call him and say, you know, you should think about this?
KJ: No. No, I didn’t because he disfellowshipped himself before I knew it and it was too late then.
SB: But do you still feel that he. . . It seems to me that he still has a very spiritual core, I mean like he talks about God with me all the time.
KJ: Yes, yes. He really is. And I wish he would come back.
SB: Do you talk to him about raising Prince and Paris with some of the spiritual tradition?
KJ: Well, I bring the literature to Grace [the children’s nanny].
SB: Right.
KJ: And I bring the little. . . we have a book of Bible stories for children and I brought both of them one and she has them and she reads it to them. And I don’t think he has anything against her teaching them or reading to them.
SB: Right. As Michael became more famous, did you see any changes at all, away from the. . .
KJ: The religion?
SB: Yeah.
KJ: No, I didn’t see anything against. . . No, I didn’t. The only thing he was doing was the way he was dancing at the time when he did “Billie Jean.” They always said the way he had. . . he was grabbing his crotch, and things like that.
SB: Right, well he always jokes with me about that. He laughs at it.
KJ: I know [laughing].
When I had asked Michael why he had grabbed his crotch so much during performances, he laughed and told me that it wasn’t intentional. He didn’t do it to shock. It was impulsive, an intuitive artistic impression. He made it seem like he barely noticed doing it, hence the laughter.
Providing a Sense of Safety
Shmuley Boteach: Okay. Did you feel extra protective over him because he was very soft? Did you feel the need to look after him more?
Katherine Jackson: Yes. He was pretty strong in the way of taking care of himself in so many ways but I guess that’s what made me feel close to him because I feel that he’s soft. Like, when they were talking about him like with the child molestation thing and everybody was telling me. “Don’t say anything, you’re gonna make it worse.” And Michael’s office would say, “Don’t say anything. You’re gonna make it worse.” And I said, “It can’t get any worse than what it is. I don’t care what you say, I’m going on television.” And I did, because he needed someone to help him, to protect him from this stuff. Not that I could protect him, but at least I could try to set matters straight. Even though they didn’t believe me, I had spoken. But they all came out for money. They knew they were lying, and I went on television again and I said, “These people work for me, not for Michael.” People try to make money any kind of way they can.
SB: And when he was younger, did you also feel the need to protect him? Did you immediately see that of all your nine children that he was softer than the others, that he was more sensitive than the others, that he was gentler than the others?
KJ: You know, I see him more sensitive than the others but. . . I think he’s kind of strong when you have to be. Don’t you see that? Or do you?
SB: Oh, absolutely, I saw it yesterday. I told you. Michael and Frank had this whole clash about how much he should do tomorrow night at Carnegie Hall. Absolutely, yeah, he is very strong when he has to be.
KJ: Aha, that’s how he is.
SB: So you saw that as well. You saw there was a softness, but a strong core.
KJ: A softness, but strong too in a way. And he can be hurt very easily, you know, because people think a certain way or say certain things about him. But I think he’s kind of hard now because he’s had so many things thrown upon him.
SB: Absolutely.
KJ: He’s got a hard shell.
SB: He had to endure a lot. Absolutely. When he chose to stay at home. . . he was now big, even after Thriller, he was now one of the biggest stars in the world.
KJ: Aha.
SB: Can you talk about that? About that at all? Did you. . . I mean,
I find that very moving that in this day and age when people go to college at like seventeen and they’re not close to their parents anymore. . . And here was this guy who could obviously afford to live anywhere he wanted. But he wanted to live at home. Um, so we were just talking about Michael staying at home. As your children. . . your children got married young, most of them, I mean the older boys.
KJ: Yes they did.
SB: Michael didn’t.
KJ: No.
SB: And were you happy to have him at home?
KJ: Yes. In fact, I didn’t want to see any of my children leave home, but that’s how mothers are.
SB: Right.
KJ: You know, but they have to leave and go away.
SB: Well did you say to him, “That’s good that you’re staying home. You’re right, this is the correct decision. Stay here until you get married”?
KJ: No.
SB: Or did you say to him “You’re a superstar, you really should be. . . ”
KJ: No, no. I never believed in pushing children out or you know, like the mother bird. . . you know, push them out and say fly? But I did believe in them being strong and being able to go, but whenever they got ready. . . twenty-four. . . twenty-five.
SB: He always felt very protective about you?
KJ: He said, “I’m gonna buy you a house.”
Being Michael’s Mother
Shmuley Boteach: There are a lot of stories he tells me about when he was a boy, about you. Like for example, he said that he always used to dance. . .
Katherine Jackson: Aha.
SB: And he would leave scuff marks.
KJ: Mhmm [laughing].
SB: And everyone would say, “Michael stop dancing.” Or, “You’re making too much noise.” And you used to always say, “No, let him dance.”
KJ: Yes.
SB: He sort of credits you with bringing out his musical talent more than anyone else because you. . .
KJ: Oh, really?
SB: Yeah, he always tells me. One of the stories that we have in the book is that he always used to dance and leave marks and be making noise and you would always say, “No, let Michael dance. Always let Michael dance.”
KJ: Yes.
SB: Do you remember that?
KJ: Yes, yes. I think Michael was born with it because even when he was a little kid, three years old, and the kids used to sing and he would be. . . that’s what made me notice that he was a singer. He was over in the corner, and they were singing and perfect harmony came from him and I thought, “My God where did he get this from?” And then when he was about five years old, they would be wondering, “Now what move can we put with [this song]?” You know how they do the choreo
graphy. And he was doing that. He would tell them, “No, let’s do this and let’s do that.”
SB: Almost like he had it inside him?
KJ: He did. He had it inside him. I don’t know where it came from and it startled me. Just like some things you see in Prince now and you just don’t believe it. And that’s how it was with him.
SB: There was something just last week saying that Michael’s chin was surgically implanted, and that’s how ridiculous it gets. How do you feel about all that stuff as his mother?
KJ: People saying things about him?
SB: When you read this stuff. . . anything. . .
KJ: Oh it upsets me. It makes me angry.
SB: But do you also say to yourself at that time “I believe in God and I believe that everything is done for a reason?” Do you find strength in your spiritual faith that ultimately none of this will matter, that God’s will will be done?
KJ: I do feel that way. If it wasn’t for my faith, my spirit and my belief in God, I don’t think I could’ve made it with all the stuff that goes on about my family and about Michael. It really hurts. But you have to pray about it. That’s the only way that you can. . . SB: So that’s what’s gotten you through it?
KJ: Yes.
SB: And did you say to Michael in 1993 or in any of those times, “You have to be close to God. You need that faith. This is what’s gonna get you through it”? That it’s not the money or the success or the fans. That it’s a strong relationship with God?
KJ: Right, right, it is. And I feel that and I feel that. Uh [sigh], well, I can’t say it.
SB: Well, for most people, as they become more successful, they become less religious. It’s a trend. With you it seems that the more successful the family became, you became more religious. You held on tighter.
KJ: Aha. Yes. There’s nothing else out there to me. I’m proud of my children, proud of what they’re doing, and they have a talent for it. But as far as anything else out there in the world, there’s nothing. Because Satan is. . . and you might not believe me. . .
The Michael Jackson Tapes Page 19