SB: Oh, please speak openly. . .
KJ: Mhmm.
SB: There are things in my faith that you wouldn’t agree with. [Both laugh.]
SB: But we’re both people of faith.
KJ: Well, I believe that Satan is the god of the system. The reason I say that is because. . . all the news you hear, bad news. . . all the people are doing crazy things. And the Bible speaks of children, these last days, of children how they are disrespectful, lovers of money rather than lovers of God and, how children are disrespectful to their parents and parents are disrespectful to their children. And that’s what’s happening. Don’t you think so?
SB: Absolutely. Well, that’s why you should come tomorrow night [to the joint lecture Michael and I were going to deliver at Carnegie Hall]. It’s going to be a big blow against the side of Satan. You should really come. I couldn’t agree more. What drew me to Michael, and you should see the speech he’s giving tomorrow, is how he speaks so movingly about how nobody eats dinner with their kids anymore and how no one reads their children bedtime stories. And every time there would be a shooting in the schools, he’d call me up at home when he was in California and I was in New Jersey. And he’d say, “Did you hear? Another kid got shot.” Now in America, it’s “Oh, another kid got shot.” And you’d turn the page to another story. But Michael cried.
KJ: Mhmm, mhmm. That’s Michael.
SB: On my birthday, we brought the national leukemia poster child. Michael came to my birthday party and she sat next to him, this little girl seven years old. And when the mother told him her story, Michael cried like a little baby. It was unbelievable. Do you do that as well?
KJ: Yes, I do.
SB: So he really is most like you. I mean, if I want to understand him, I have to understand you.
KJ: Aha, mhmm. And I hate that about myself and Janet does it too. [Laughing]
SB: Michael told me about you—you can’t say no to anybody. People will ask you for things and you can’t say no. [Laughing]
KJ: Mhmm, it’s hard. And he’s the same way and I told him you have to learn to say no.
SB: Now does that come from your parents? Were they very kind people?
KJ: Mhmm, yes. Especially my mother. My father was too.
SB: So you transmitted this tradition of kindness to your children. Kindness was the most important thing.
KJ: That’s how I felt. Sometimes when you’re poor and you have nothing else to give, give your love, give of yourself. And whatever you had, like poor people always do. When I was raised up, they would always invite people in to eat, that’s all they had, you know.
SB: Are you treated differently in the church as the mother of the Jacksons?
KJ: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.
SB: And do you like the fact that you can just be yourself there?
KJ: Yes. I like that fact. I could be myself. And we have the girl that’s in our congregation too that always sits next to me and my friend and all the time who was on tour with Diana Ross. And uh she’s. . . [pause in tape] her name is Linda Lawrence and you know they had to quit their tour but she went on tour with Diana, took Mary’s place. And she’s been traveling as a Supreme. You know, they have a lot before Diana and she’s treated the same way. And my daughter’s in the congregation, and she’s treated the same way.
SB: Which one? Rebbie?
KJ: Rebbie.
SB: She lives also. . . she lives near you?
KJ: She used to. She lives in Las Vegas.
SB: I want to ask this question as well. . . I can turn this off, or not. But Michael has had a tortured, he’s had a tortured relationship with his father. I’m not saying anything new. I mean, this has come out, as you know, in interviews and things like that.
KJ: Aha.
SB: You probably know that there’s uh. . . I don’t know how much he spoke about his father in public but one of the famous things that he said publicly was that once his father walked into the room, he felt like throwing up ’cause he was so afraid of him. Do you remember that?
KJ: I know! Yeah, I remember him saying that. He used to tell me and when I used to go on the road he always said, “Don’t bring Joseph.” I’d say, “Why?” and he said, “I literally. . . ”
SB: I could turn this off if you want me to.
KJ: Yes. Could you, please?
SB: Of course.
We spoke for another half hour and I departed. I would later see Michael’s mother again at her home in Encino when she invited me to meet her husband Joe to speak to him about reconnecting with Michael some months after my relationship with him was over.
PART 5
DOES AN IDEAL WOMAN EXIST ?
Relationships and Wannabe Girlfriends
People seem obsessed with the question of Michael and women. Was he heterosexual? Were his marriages real? Were they consummated? I would never have dared ask him any of these questions. Nor would I ask them of anyone else. Everyone deserves some privacy. Indeed, in our relationship I limited my questions to areas where I thought I could bring improvement. Michael and I many times discussed his marriage to Debbie Rowe because I thought it horrible, not to mention untenable, that she should have no interaction with Paris and Prince, her two children. This was a permanent sore point between Michael and me. He basically told me that I did not understand the nature of his relationship with Debbie, and that it was better for Prince and Paris not to have a relationship with a mother they have never known. (For their part, when asked, Prince and Paris simply replied that they had no mother.) I responded that a relationship with one’s mother is not a luxury that one could do without. It was an absolute necessity.
I further told Michael that time was running out for him, because once the children grew older, they would judge both him and Debbie harshly for not having had their mother in their life, especially when she lived just a few hours away. The kids would know they weren’t hatched or delivered by a stork. They were going to ask for their mother. Of course, I never would have revealed any of this had Debbie Rowe herself not gone on television, in that strange Michael Jackson response video to Martin Bashir’s documentary, and basically said that she had her children for Michael and that her decision to be excised from her children’s life is nobody’s business. One could make the argument that the well-being of children is everyone’s business and she should be strongly encouraged to involve herself in her beautiful children’s life, no matter what kind of arrangement she had with Michael.
On the subject of romance and dating, I pushed Michael constantly to be in a relationship, telling him how essential it was that he have a woman in his life. I told him that a good woman would ground him, balance him, and anchor him. Interestingly, he never pulled me off the subject but rather said that it would have to be the right one. I related earlier that when I brought Katie Couric, whom I knew through appearances on the Today Show for my books, to meet Michael, he was so impressed that when she left he actually said to me, “You’re always bugging me about dating. Now there’s the kind of woman I would like to take out.” Well, the gauntlet had been thrown.
I have written in my books that the highest kindness one can perform for another is to end their loneliness. Even God served as matchmaker to Adam and Eve. So, while knowing that it might sound ridiculous, I called Katie at her home. “I know this is going to sound nuts to you,” I said, “but you did mention to me that you had been widowed, for which I am very sorry. At that meeting you had with Michael, well, he wants to know if you’d like to go out with him for coffee.” Katie laughed and said, “Well, Shmuley, I see you don’t read the tabloids. I actually have a nice man in my life.” I became embarrassed. “Okay, Katie, well, as I take the foot out of my mouth, let me just tell you how happy I am for you that you have a good guy, and why don’t we instead do this as a fivesome. You and your boyfriend, me and my wife, Debbie, and Michael, can all go out for coffee.” Katie said that would be wonderful and that was that.
But for those who wonder whethe
r Michael has a real interest in women, all I can say is that when we discussed his need to marry, he certainly never said, “Stop being ridiculous.” If anything, he told me constantly that his concern was that women only wanted his money and that the ones he met were not very ladylike. Indeed, when Michael spoke at Carnegie Hall at an event we organized to promote parents spending time with children, he even remarked as part of his speech, “Shmuley has been trying to marry me off for some time now.” But while most of the conversations I had with Michael on the subject of romance were off the record, there was one evening where he answered my questions on the subject for the purpose of this book.
Shmuley Boteach: You know how children are always making mock weddings. They tell you they have a crush on someone in their class. Children seem naturally romantic. Have you always been romantic?
Michael Jackson: Not on purpose, but not unromantic, I don’t think so. You just be yourself.
SB: Children always have this puppy love thing going on, and they have crushes on each other. They’re always passing notes in class.
MJ: I think that is so sweet and cute.
SB: Do you like creating romance? Are you a matchmaking kind of person?
MJ: No, I don’t do that. I am too shy to do all that stuff. I am a lot like my mother. We used to ask my mother, “Do you kiss Joseph?” She goes, “Don’t ask me those questions.” We go, “Mother, do you kiss him?” She goes, “I don’t want to talk about it.” We go, “Well, how did you meet him? Who asked who to get married?” She says, “I don’t want to talk about it.”
SB: So you were bought up to be shy and modest about things pertaining to love and romance?
MJ: Yes, we don’t talk about it.
SB: You have been married twice, Michael. Do you still believe in romance, or have you had some negative experiences and it is therefore more difficult to believe?
MJ: No, I believe in it, but I am shy about it. None of us have invited our parents to our weddings. We don’t believe in it. We are too shy. I wouldn’t dare in a million years to have my mother at a wedding of mine. I can’t have myself walking down the aisle and my mother sitting there. That’s why we all ran off and got married secretly and my mother reads it in the paper and she doesn’t mind. Because we are just like her. She would have done the same thing.
SB: So love has to be something hidden and concealed?
MJ: It’s like private, like mushy stuff.
SB: And mushy stuff is always private?
MJ: Yeah.
SB: Well, I also believe that romantic love thrives through mystery and concealment. But we can’t overdo it. Your parents should definitely be at your wedding. So romance is something you believe in but you have been taught to be shy about it?
MJ: I am shy. I don’t know how good I am at it because I am shy. I am very different in that way. I have heard guys be really poetic with girls and, “Oh baby, this and that.” I am not like that. I am like straight to the point and say it simply.
SB: So what do you do in things like music videos when you’re expected to portray romance and do love scenes and things like that?
MJ: That’s why it is my job to cast the girl, because it is my job to think they are cute. So I can do it if I really like them, like some of the girls you see in my videos. I have cast them because I really like them and it caused a problem afterwards because they start to really like me, and I don’t want to get that serious, and it becomes a problem sometimes.
SB: You probably face this all the time because not only are you famous, but you are the kind of guy who women want to be around—soft, gentle, not afraid to express his emotions. [This was obviously said before Michael’s arrest and the torrent of allegations about him that later come out.] Women die for guys who aren’t afraid to show vulnerability and softness, whereas a lot of the guys in Hollywood are stereotypically self-absorbed, self-obsessed, and can’t commit. So do you often find that this happens, that women get clingy?
MJ: What do you mean?
SB: Like you said, it is supposed to be a professional thing. You just film something with a female costar, but afterwards they become attached.
MJ: Yes, it happens.
SB: How do you break the news to them that you don’t reciprocate?
MJ: When they see me running the other way. Yeah. Some of them follow me around the world and it is so hard.
SB: That probably makes them chase you even more because they probably are drawn to that boyish shyness. To be sure, many women like “bad” boys. But for the same reason, a lot like shy guys. In the same way they believe that they can redeem the bad boy and polish up this coarse diamond, they believe the same thing about the shy guy. They think, “Only I can bring him out of his shell.” But I guess after a while, with you running halfway around the world from them, they get the message. But you never tell them directly?
MJ: No, because it would hurt them too much.
Crushes and Puppy Love
The morning after I had taken Michael with me to songwriter Denise Rich’s semiannual Angel Ball, a black-tie benefit for cancer research, where Michael was the cynosure of all eyes, we sat down to continue our conversation in his hotel suite.
Shmuley Boteach: What did Cindy Crawford want from you last night?
Michael Jackson: I have seen Cindy from afar several times, and she was with other guys, and we have met up at other functions . . . from afar. I think she felt this was her chance to really meet me. She probably admires me. A lot of the people come over. What you saw was nothing.
SB: You have seen celebrities behave like that, like a pack of dogs, chasing after someone who is more famous than them? It was so degrading.
MJ: Yes! It’s worse.
SB: What did she talk to you about?
MJ: [Imitating Crawford] “How are you?” I go, “I’m all right.” “Oh, you sure you are okay? Oh, I just love your work, and I love what you do. How long are you in town?” I said, “I am working here. I’m recording.”
SB: Do you think there was a romantic interest?
MJ: Yeaaah. I kinda think so.
SB: Was she asking you out?
MJ: Those girls flirt. . . they flirt. She is pretty.
SB: It was blatant. A banker who was with us at the table said to me, “Cindy Crawford, when she is up close, she is just another gal.” I said, “But what is she doing here?”
MJ: Did you see Donald Trump come over?
SB: Now he is an interesting man.
MJ: A woman I really liked and respected was Princess Diana. SB: Why?
MJ: Because she was classy and sincerely cared about people and children and the plight of what was going on in the world. She didn’t do it for show. I like the way she made her kids wait in line to get on a ride for something.
I had read the same thing, that Princess Diana made her kids wait in line at Disneyworld. That is pretty amazing. I hate waiting in the lines at Disneyworld and if I could use clout to cut them, I probably would. That is a real sign of character and a sincere desire to raise humble rather than entitled kids.
SB: Can we say that there was an ever so innocent slight romantic attraction? Or do you not want to say that? Do you just want to say that you thought she was a very special woman?
MJ: I thought she was very special.
SB: Was she a feminine kind of woman?
MJ: Very feminine and classy. She was my type for sure, and I don’t like most girls. There are very few I like who fit the mold. It takes a very special mold to make me happy and she was one of them. For sure.
SB: Because of her love of kids?
MJ: It takes a lot to find a mirror image, a mirror image. People always say that opposites attract and I think that is true, as well. But I want somebody who is a lot like me, who has the same interests and who wants to help and they gotta go to hospitals with me and care about Gavin [Michael’s later accuser]. That’s why you saw Lisa Marie and me at those kinds of things. She cared about that stuff, too.
SB
: Did you ever think of asking Princess Diana out?
MJ: Absolutely.
SB: So why didn’t you have the nerve to ask her?
MJ: I have never asked a girl out in my life. They have to ask me. SB: Really?
MJ: I can’t ask a girl out.
SB: If she would have asked you out?
MJ: Absolutely. I would have gone. Brooke Shields asked me out every time you saw us out together. It was her idea to go out and do it every time. I sincerely liked Brooke Shields too. I liked her a lot.
SB: Does she like kids?
MJ: Yes. My first girlfriend, Tatum O’Neal, she’d won the Academy Award for Paper Moon. . . I was sixteen, she was thirteen. And was I naïve. She wanted to do everything and I didn’t want to have sex at all, because there were a lot of values associated with being a Jehovah’s Witness. I said, “Are you crazy?” One of those was to be kind to everyone. When I held Tatum’s hand it was just magic, better than anything, kissing her, anything. Her, Ryan O’Neal, and myself went to this club and were watching a band and underneath the table she was holding my hand and I was melting. It was magical. There was fireworks going on. It was all I needed. But that means nothing to kids today. She grew up too fast. She wasn’t into innocence, and I love that.
Now Brooke Shields, she was one of the loves of my life. We dated a lot. Her pictures were all over my walls and mirrors. I was at the Academy Awards with Diana Ross and she just came up to me and said, “Hi, I’m Brooke Shields. Are you going to the after party?” I said, “Yeah, and I just melted.” I was about twenty-three. . . during Off the Wall. I thought, “Does she know [that photographs of her are] all over my room?” So we get to the party and she says, “Would you dance with me?” And we went on the dance floor. And man, we exchanged numbers and I was up all night, spinning around in my room, just so happy. She was classy. We had one encounter when she got real intimate and I chickened out. And I shouldn’t have.
The Michael Jackson Tapes Page 20