by Bill Etem
to perdition…images of false gods are images of beasts who lead people to perdition. Recall Revelation 13. 1-8. Recall the image of the beast mentioned in Revelation 14. 11. The Protestants under the sign of the cross got their doctrine that the sign of the cross is sacred from the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, not from the New Testament…If the Roman Catholic crucifix is evil, and if the Eastern Orthodox crucifix is evil, what would this lead us to conclude about the sign of the cross? Well, of course, the cross either reflects no evil, or else it reflects some evil. If it reflects no evil then you ought to remember what is written in Revelation 9. If the cross is the seal of God mentioned in Revelation 9, then you want the mark of a cross on your forehead, you know, during the Great Tribulation, to save you from the torments described in Revelation 9. But if the cross symbolizes some evil, then you don’t want the mark of a cross on your forehead – recall Revelation 14. 11, and that part about burning in hell for eternity if you have an evil mark on your forehead – you remember Revelation 14. 11 - ‘and the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.’ If the cross is the mark of the beast then every church under the sign of the cross leads people to perdition. You prove this by assuming the opposite. That is, assume that at least one church under the sign of the cross leads people to heaven, assume that some church somewhere under the sign of the cross is God’s True Church, the Church which Christ founded on a rock, then, when this church tells you it is safe to put the mark of a cross on your forehead, then you can trust that church, because it is God’s True Church, and God’s True Church always leads people to heaven; but if the cross is the mark of the beast then one will burn in hell forever if one puts the mark of a cross on one’s forehead, therefore this contradicts our assumption that you can trust at least one church under the sign of the cross because it is God’s True Church, when it tells you the cross is sacred. Therefore, no church under the sign of the cross is God’s True Church if the sign of the cross is the mark of the beast, therefore every church under the sign of the cross has fallen away from the True Faith, therefore every church under the sign of the cross leads people to perdition, therefore every church under the sign of the cross is satanic if the cross is the mark of the beast…So, to review, the cross either reflects no evil or else it reflects some evil. If it reflects some evil, and if the cross is the mark of the beast, then every church under the sign of the cross leads people to perdition. If the cross reflects no evil then it might be this seal of God which protects one from the torments mentioned in Revelation 9, when it is placed on ones forehead. But, on the other hand, if the cross reflects some evil, and if it is the mark of the beast, then one will burn in hell forever if the mark of a cross is placed on ones forehead, recall Revelation 14. 11.’
Moderator - ‘2 Thess 2 mentions a man of sin / son of perdition. It mentions the damned are under strong delusion. Obviously, anyone who says the cross reflects some evil is deluded, and is a pal of the Antichrist.’
Me - ‘2 Thess 2 certainly deals with strong delusion. If you know God, if you have the Divine Law written on your heart – you recall Jeremiah 31. 31-34 - then you will know God and you will not be deluded. You recall 2 Thess 1. 8, that part about the people who don’t know God and who don’t obey the Gospel burning in hellfire, right? You recall that repent or perish bit in Luke 13. 3, right. John 15. 6? Mathew 25. 31-46? You have to understand and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, also known as the True Faith, the New Covenant and the Divine Law, to escape perdition and to attain heaven….There are tons of sectarian divisions to complicate matters. To a Roman Catholic the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the same thing as official Roman Catholic doctrine. To the Eastern Orthodox, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the same thing as official Eastern Orthodox doctrine. To the Episcopalians and the ELCA – the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – the Gospel of Jesus Christ is something which supports Gay Marriage and Gay Sex. The Episcopalians and the ELCA people insist that God is a loving God, and they insist the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about love, and, therefore, men who express their love for each other by having sex within the bonds of Gay Marriage, and a loving relationship, do not violate the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The more Conservative Christians might insist that God is Liberal enough to have no problem with Lesbians who love to gaze deeply into each others’ eyes, and that God is Liberal enough to have no problem with gay men who like to hold hands and give each other hugs, but as soon as Gays and Lesbians take their pants off and start to get down and dirty, then, we have to ask: does God have a big issue with them taking their pants off, and getting down and dirty? You really can’t discuss Gay Marriage and the Gospel of Jesus Christ intelligently unless you define your terms: what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? What does it mean to get down and dirty? What does sodomy mean? Does the Gospel support sodomy? Can Lesbians obey the Gospel when they give each other oral sex? Just to mention sodomy etc. is sort of tacky, you know? It’s not really a sign of extreme decency, as you might imagine, to go around talking about sodomy, you know, the whole litany of oral sex, and, you know, all that stuff. But people nowadays are so lost and confused. You want to try to help them out. If a church marries two gay guys, then, unless that church specifically says otherwise, that church is telling those gay guys that it is OK for them to, you know, indulge in sodomy. That church is telling them that God and the Gospel are OK with consensual sodomy within ‘Holy Gay Matrimony’. I mean, if those two gay guys will go to perdition if they have gay sex with each, if the Gospel is hostile to that sort of thing, then why is their Christian church marrying gay guys? Isn’t the ELCA a Christian Church? Isn’t the Episcopalian Church a Christian Church? If the Episcopalian Church and the ELCA lead people to perdition, then the Episcopalian Church and the ELCA are rather like satanic cults: they are not nice, respectable Christian churches….Are the Episcopalians and the ELCA members sane? Does it make any sense to claim in one breath to be a Christian, and then claim in the next breath that God is OK with Gays and Lesbians having sex with each other, provided of course the sex is within the bonds of ‘Holy Gay Matrimony’? If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a sham, then the Episcopalians and the ELCA members should renounce Christianity. But if Christianity is true, if the Christian scriptures are trustworthy, then why would the Episcopalians and the ELCA members think Gay Sex and Gay Marriage are lawful under the Gospel? Peer pressure can be intense, as you might recall, and if you run with a crowd which sees anti-Gay-Marriage people as Barbarians and Neanderthals, then you might conclude that the Gospel is not hostile toward Gay Marriage….If Christianity is a sham, if Christianity is a superstition, then every Christian should renounce Christianity. But if Christianity leads souls to heaven, if Christianity is true, then, anyone ought to be able to understand that you’re corrupting Christianity, you’re leading people to perdition, when you insist that gay sex – sodomy - is OK under the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you lead people to perdition, then you’re on the Devil’s side, though you might be deluded enough to insist that you are on God’s side….On the one hand, you can see that if a guy is just naturally attracted to other guys, or if a woman is just naturally turned on by other women, then it seems pretty rude and obnoxious to say they are damned because they are violators of the Gospel, should they merely have romantic candle-lit dinners with their partners. But, on the other hand, I suppose there’s an argument saying you really have a screw loose –you’re really not dealing from a full deck - if you think that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is OK with two gay guys are having sex with each other provided some Christian minister presided at their Gay Marriage ceremony. Even if we were Liberal enough to insist that Gays and Lesbians do not violate the Gospel of Jesus Christ if they give each other hugs and kisses, don’t you think, to obey the Gospel, they absolutely must keep their pants on, and they absolutely must abstain from sodomy
? And then, no doubt, pious folks will want to place some sensible limits on what heterosexual married couples do in the marriage bed. I mean, everyone knows what Hebrews 13. 4 says, but that scripture doesn’t give married heteros a license to act like porn stars employing the very latest techniques that they learned by viewing the most hard core XXX rated films…So, to recap matters, if an Episcopalian, or an ELCA person, was to ask you what his essential problem is, then, don’t you think, his essential problem, must be one of two kinds? 1) He really and truly, deep-down, wants to renounce Christianity. He just doesn’t have the will to renounce Christianity, or, 2) He’s just giving in to peer pressure. He runs with a crowd, perhaps a fashionable crowd, which sees people who are opposed to Gay Marriage as narrow-minded bigots, as self-righteous prigs, and he wants to fit in with the chic sophisticated set of people that he wants to run with. We know there are intelligent people who read