State Violence

by Raymond Murray

  Fifth interrogation

  I was awakened, and it is wrong to say I was awakened because I had no chance of sleeping that night due to my experience, I was called at seven o’clock in the morning of 21 January 1977 and told that my breakfast was there. My breakfast consisted of an egg on toast and some beans. I tried to eat as much of it as I could, because I knew from the experience I had the more food I could eat the stronger I would be.

  I was then taken from my cell by another plain-clothed policeman and brought back to room two for interrogation at ten o’clock in the morning of 21 January 1977. I hardly knew what the time was. I kept asking the uniformed policemen who were taking me out of the cell what time it was, and they always told me. The two CID who were taking me now was 1. a smallish fellow, and 2. a taller fellow. These two clients were inclined again to go through the entire file again, to go through the same stuff all over again. But each time I would say ‘No’, the small fellow put his hand in front of my forehead. With his fist he kept punching me in the back of the head under the base of the skull until his knuckles got too sore to do it any longer. After the first five or six punches I didn’t feel any more. I was numb to punching like that.

  I was made continually stare through the window at daylight during this session and I could find my eyes getting very bleary. If I looked around to see the person who was talking to me, I got a box in the face for doing so, as I didn’t obey them when I had to look out through the window. The thinner taller one of the two would keep roaring at the top of his voice. I thought my eardrum would burst open. This would last for fifteen or twenty minutes solid at one time. When the dark-haired one would be tired punching me in the back of the head, and after a slight rest, and again talking through the stuff in the file, he would then stand in front of me and slap my face from left to right with an open hand until his face got white with temper when he wasn’t able to do it any longer. He got so tired hammering me that he left the room and said that he would be back in ten minutes after he got a break. He said he was fatigued and wasn’t able to continue it any longer at that rate but, when he came back, if I wouldn’t admit to any offences by then, he would take me to within an inch of my life.

  When he came back he was more reasonable than he had been before he went out. For the rest of the interview, apart from an odd slap in the face and a lot of shouting and roaring at me right into my eardrum, the interview ended after about four hours. During this last interview the taller fair-haired fellow punched me several times in the stomach and poked me along the upper chest with extended rigid fingers. Both of these men told me that they were convinced of my guilt and they would personally, if I was released from there, meaning Castlereagh, assassinate me.

  It was during the same interview that a third man came into the room and told me that a friend of mine from Castlederg had been shot dead by the UVF and that the same treatment would be suitable for me. One of the two interviewers asked me did I know anyone in Castlederg and I said I did not. I was then taken back to my cell and I was given lunch.

  Sixth interrogation – emotion

  After lunch I was again taken back to interview room four. Interview room four was a small room similar to the other ones with again three chairs. This time I was allowed to sit down. I was taken during this interview by a man called Inspector ... He told me this was his name, and another more friendly type of person who also told me his name. These men were out to prove that I had been involved in murders in Enniskillen. They spoke from a humane point of view of anybody being involved in a murder and the proper thing to do would be to confess. They tried to emotionally get me to admit that I had taken part in such murders. They said that they knew I wasn’t involved in pulling the actual trigger but that I was far too intelligent for that; that I would be the godfather of the scene and that I would be sending young boys and killers out to do these jobs under my instructions and that they had at long last caught up with this godfather. They showed me photographs of the remains of bodies that were picked up, of people who had been killed in explosions and shootings in Enniskillen. They placed them on my knee and asked me to look at them for ages. I was asked to comment on them. I was asked to comment on the type of feeling I felt of people who would do that sort of thing. I was asked for my political views on the present situation in Northern Ireland. My previous days in the Civil Rights Campaign were thoroughly discussed, my days in the People’s Democracy; even a very petty offence of stealing steeples from a sawmill, a derelict sawmill in Enniskillen, when I was nine years of age, was brought up. They were very conversant with my private life in Enniskillen and had twisted everything round to the fact that I should admit now to murder, because it was only in all honesty and justice, looking at these photographs and that type of thing, that that would be the proper thing to do. Needless to say, as I was completely innocent of the whole affair, I would not admit to anything.

  Mentally disturbing

  The man who identified himself to me as Inspector ... was .... Neither of these two men physically assaulted or ill-treated me, though I did find their line of questioning mentally disturbing by reason of length of time and repetition. The two different new interrogators kept interrogating me until around two o’clock that morning, 22 January 1977, the following morning, which would have been Saturday morning. I would describe them as 1. ... he was the person who signed me out of the cell block to which I had been returned after the previous interview; up until this I had always been returned after each interview, 2. ... much older man. I would say that neither of these men physically assaulted me or ill-treated me. But, by reason of their line of questioning and repetition and unwillingness to accept my innocence, I found the interview mentally disturbing.

  Seventh interrogation – seventeen hours

  I was put back in my cell then. Again I was in no fit state to sleep, although I felt the cell a relief and a comfort. I was taken from my cell again at ten o’clock on Saturday morning. I was put into room seven. I was kept in room seven from ten o’clock on Saturday morning until five o’clock on Sunday morning, 23 January 1977, which was approximately seventeen hours in the same room. The meals were brought to me there. I was not allowed back to my cell to get my meals. Even during my meals I was continually interrogated, although after lunch Mr ... , whom I have previously referred to, brought me to a toilet and wash-room to let me have a wash.

  Made-up statements

  At one stage another CID man came in, and by the way in this period there would be changes of the CID men about every two or three hours, and they would come in pairs. At one stage one of them came in with a brief case, put it down on the table and said, ‘Right, now I want the statements’. I refused to make the statements. He said if that’s the way I wanted it then he would have to play it his way. He proceeded to open my file and opened it at the page concerning the murder of Constable ... He then proceeded to write down a statement concerning my alleged involvement in the murder of Constable ... He wrote down that I had committed or was involved in a conspiracy to the murder and that I was making the statement freely and not under duress and asked me did I want to sign the statement. I refused to sign the statement. He then turned over a page to the murder of ... and proceeded to write out a similar statement with my alleged involvement in it. He then asked me did I want to sign that statement. After some discussion he then took the two statements again and he handed them over to me and said to me, here write on those statements that I don’t want to sign them. Again I told him I would have nothing to do with writing anything on those statements as I wasn’t involved in them nor did I write them. The writing was on lined paper with the green crest on the top. He then said that he was going to keep those statements and use them in evidence against me in court as statements made voluntarily by me verbally but that I refused to sign them. I told him that if that is the way his conscience worked, well then that was up to him, but that he knew that I had nothing to do with them.

  He then went to leave the room an
d came back and said that he hoped that I was aware of the fact that I would have to do a period like thirty-five years for not co-operating with the police in making the statements. He said in court, if I went in normally into court and made a statement freely and without persuasion, that the police in court would say this and I would get an ordinary life sentence, which would be about fourteen years, which meant that I would be released from prison, or I would get half remission because the offence was committed before a certain date. Not alone that but I would get one-third remission then on the remainder, which meant I would be released within five years. If, however, he was having to get up in court and say I would not co-operate in custody with the police in making these statements, the judge would rule that I would get a life sentence with a stipulated period of (as in the experience of [those convicted for the murders of] the Miami Showband) thirty-five years sentences. He then asked me to understand what the world was like and the changes that came over the past thirty-five years, and how over the next thirty-five years, if I was locked up in prison, when I would come out, I would be in no fit state to meet society. I wouldn’t understand the changes that had taken place and I would, therefore, feel that I could not fit into society. I was asked to think of my wife and family. At one stage he said that the only time you’ll get out of prison would be to attend your mother’s funeral on a day’s remission and, perhaps, maybe if I was good in custody, to get out to my son or daughter’s wedding. Having finally, of course, convinced himself that I was not going to involve myself in these made-up statements, he left the room in expression of disgust.

  This man was the same man who had me last thing at 2am that same morning 22 January 1977 and also at 10am that morning, i.e. 22 January 1977, that is, he was the much older man of the two who interviewed me until 2am on 22 January 1977. The younger man who was present at both interviews took notes.

  An extremely religious fellow

  The next person I had was a Mr ... He was a tall CID man. Again he was a quite friendly sort of person. He even offered me cough sweets. He apologised from the point of view that he had a cold and he would just like to have a little talk with me. The talk lasted roughly about four hours. It went on the trend that he was an extremely religious fellow. He quoted several items of scripture from the Bible, all to try and convince me that I should in this point of time, under the eyes of God, admit to the guilt that he said that I was involved in. After his long and interesting at times discussion and lecture on religion, I seemed to disappoint him terrible when I said that ‘No’ I did nothing wrong, I was not involved in the acts of terrorism that they were trying to tell me and that I was sorry that he had got the wrong man in there. He then wanted to know as a result of that who did I think was the right man that should be in there. Again I told him that in no way did I know anything about terrorism in Enniskillen, nor did I want to know anything about terrorism in Enniskillen. I told him I never was involved in the IRA. I told him that I am not involved in the IRA and I never wanted to be involved in the IRA. He told me that was a lie, that he had complete evidence in that file to prove otherwise and, despite everything that he had said and that I had said, he was still one hundred per cent convinced that I was the man they were looking for. Again he left the room and this led up to some time in the region of about 11 o’clock at night. Now I had been in that room all day from 10 o’clock that morning up until then.

  My own doctor

  The only break that I had received out of that room was a twenty minute break, I’d say sometime in the region of around 5 o’clock and it was to be examined by my own doctor from Enniskillen, Dr ... , whose attendance I had requested the previous day, Friday 21 January 1977, from one of the uniformed sergeants. I was very thoroughly examined by Dr ... in the presence of another young doctor who was there under the direction of the RUC to act as a neutral observer to my medical examination. Dr ... medically examined me from the top of my head to the soles of my feet. He discovered numerous bruise marks and swellings on parts of my body. The other doctor that was there verbally agreed with what Dr ... noticed and then wrote them down on his report as well as Dr ... writing them down on the report he was making.

  Questions about everything

  I was then taken back from that medical examination to my cell and then back to the interview room where I had been and there my interrogation continued. Around 11 o’clock that night, in the same room which I hadn’t got out of, only for that twenty minute period or so, I was then confronted by two very tall well-built CID men. (One) threw his coat on the back of [the] chair, took out two large packets of Stirling cigarettes from [his] overcoat pocket and threw them on the table. He also threw a packet of Opal fruit sweets onto the table as well. He lifted the ash tray from the window ledge, threw it upside down to throw ashes out of it and then put it on the table. He threw the chair from the corner over to the table. He then sat down on a chair and put his feet upon a table. The man ...

  Both the men smoked a lot. They offered me sweets which I was very glad to take. It appeared to me that these men were out to ask me as many questions as they possibly could about everything and anything. I was asked questions about religion, priests, nuns, pope, schools, civil rights, P.D., all forms of politics, united Ireland, political parties in the south, England, sex, personal sex life, practically everything one would want to ask questions about. The questions were mainly asked in a very slanted sort of manner. For instance they would ask did I believe that priests had intercourse with young girls; did I believe that priests had intercourse with nuns; did I believe that the nuns were in orphanages to cater for their own children; did I believe that the Pope was a bastard; did I believe that the Pope was the cause of starvation in parts of the world for not selling his wealth and his property. This type of question went on and on and on, roughly to about 4 and 4.30 in the morning of 23 January 1977. At times I was answering ‘yes’ and ‘no’ to things I honestly didn’t believe in and I knew were completely untrue. I know for a fact that when they asked me did I believe the Pope was a bastard, I answered ‘yes’. I know for a fact that I gave a completely unfounded answer in agreeing with them when they said St Christopher was being stroked off as a saint by the pope. I may have let down my religion during this period through sheer fatigue, in not being fit to put my mind or to employ my mind into giving a reasonable and proper answer.

  Questions from the file

  During this period I felt that I could relax my mind that bit to allow that sort of thing to happen but, when it came to approximately 4.30 in the morning, the questions started to come direct from the file and to implicate me in terrorist activities that had taken place in Enniskillen between the years 1972 and 1974. It was at this stage that my mind had to become suddenly alert again and to be very careful of the things I was going to say, because a yes or no in the wrong position at this stage would have incriminated me into something that I have never been involved in. At approximately 5 o’clock on 23 January 1977 I was brought back by these gentlemen to my cell. I had not seen these two men before, nor did I see them again.

  Uniformed policemen

  On Sunday morning I was called again about 7 o’clock for my breakfast. I ate the entire breakfast to try and again build myself up. I asked the police officer in charge of the cell block to give me a drink of water. He quite willingly gave me as much water to drink as I wanted. He was very helpful. At no stage did these uniform policemen at any time interfere with or ill-treat me, but I could only meet these men when I was put back into my cell.

  During interrogation in no way could I have had any contact with any of these uniformed policemen. It was only when they put me back into my cell that I would be able to ask them for a drink of water or my tablets or, as one did later on, get me a towel and soap to take a cold shower. On Sunday morning I had no interrogation whatsoever. I was left in my cell alone without anybody to talk to until about 3 o’clock in the afternoon, Sunday afternoon.

  Eighth interrogation – back
to the file

  I was again taken out for further interrogation. This time by a Detective Constable ... who I would describe as ... Both these men told me their names. Also Detective Constable ... came into his interview on a few occasions. Again this interview was similarly based on previous ones where they went back to my file and asked me more questions similar to what I had been asked before and right through the whole rigmarole.

  Among others who interviewed me on that Sunday, 23 January 1977, both before and after tea, was Detective Sergeant ... who told me his name. He kept expressing disgust at me being involved in the alleged offences and would not hear of my innocence. This was the first and only time I was interviewed by this man. I was also interviewed on this day by the small detective who was one of the latter two detectives who came into room two during the interrogation between 10pm and 4am on my first night in custody 20 January 1977. Incidentally every CID person who interviewed me had to write a report about the interview. My file was thick when it started, but it was now getting to be twice as thick with the extra reports they were putting in. That interview was again based similarly on the ones before, the same questions, the same idea, and again the same result. I was not willing to, in any way, accept blame for anything I had not done.