The Second Oswald

by Richard Popkin

  On 11/22/63 at Washington, D.C. File # WFO 89-75 by SA ELMER LEE TODD :mpc Date dictated 11/26/63

  This document contains neither recommendations nor conclusions of the FBI. It is the property of the FBI and is loaned to your agency; it and its contents are not to be distributed outside your agency.

  Appendix II

  Exhibit 385: the Commission’s sketch of the path of the first bullet.

  Appendix III

  The testimony of Mrs. Odio.

  MR. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hosty and Bardwell D. Odum. Do you remember that?

  MRS. ODIO. That’s correct.

  MR. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your place of work, is that correct?

  MRS. ODIO. Yes.

  MR. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what they asked you and what you told them?

  MRS. ODIO. Not exactly, but I think I can recall the conversation.

  MR. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as best you can recall it?

  MRS. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto Rico recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.

  MR. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico?

  MRS. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba.

  So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I still can’t. We more or less have established that it was the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, “That is the man that was in my house.” And I said, “Yes; I remember.”

  MR. LIEBELER. Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.

  MRS. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonds to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could. Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans knew that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that.

  MR. LIEBELER. Because of what now?

  MRS. ODIO. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the time was staying with some American friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me. It either was a Thursday or a Friday. It must have been either one of those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out to a friend’s house, and she was staying to babysit.

  Like I said, the doorbell rang and so she went over—she had a housecoat on—she wasn’t dressed properly—and came back and said, “Sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them?” So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions where Cubans have introduced themselves as having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know. So I went to the door, and he said, “Are you Sarita Odio?” And I said, “I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am Sylvia.” Then he said, “Is she the oldest?” And I said, “No; I am the oldest.” And he said, “It is you we are looking for.” So he said, “We are members of JURE.” This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names.

  And the other one did give me his name, but I can’t recall. I have been trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to remember, and I couldn’t be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on; I remember perfectly.

  MR. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the talking? Was it the American?

  MRS. ODIO. The American had not said a word yet.

  MR. LIEBELER. Which one of the Cubans?

  MRS. ODIO. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall was the one called Leopoldo.

  MR. LIEBELER. He did most of the talking?

  MRS. ODIO. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few like “Hola,” like that in Spanish.

  MR. LIEBELER. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened?

  MRS. ODIO. I had a chain.

  MR. LIEBELER. Was the chain fastened?

  MRS. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, “We are very good friends of your father.” This struck me, because I didn’t think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American. He said, “You are working in the underground.” And I said, “No, I am sorry to say I am not working in the underground.” And he said, “We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald.”

  He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don’t recall at the time I was at the door things about him.

  I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

  MR. LIEBELER. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?

  MRS. ODIO. She says she doesn’t recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.

  MR. LIEBELER. But she didn’t remember it?

  MRS. ODIO. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don’t recall. I said, “I am going to see Antonio Alentado,” which is one of the leaders of the JURE here
in Dallas. And I think I just casually said, “I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them.” But I forgot about them.

  MR. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men?

  MRS. ODIO. She saw the three of them.

  MR. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time?

  MRS. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.

  MR. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?

  MRS. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don’t know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven’t shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow.

  That is something I noticed. And he was wearing—the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

  MR. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?

  MRS. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.

  MR. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?

  MRS. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.

  MR. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie?

  MRS. ODIO. No tie.

  MR. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?

  MRS. ODIO. He had it open. I don’t know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I want to remember everything.

  MR. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald’s picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?

  MRS. ODIO. She said, “Sylvia, you know that man?” And I said, “Yes,” and she said, “I know him.” “He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn’t be so, could it?”

  That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.

  This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary council, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a lot of them to different industries to see if we get some results.

  This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, “Sylvia, let’s write letters to different industries to see if we can raise some money.” I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and I said, “Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?”

  MR. LIEBELER. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name?

  MRS. ODIO. His name is Antonio.

  MR. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez Alvareda?

  MRS. ODIO. Yes.

  MR. LIEBELER. Who is he?

  MRS. ODIO. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after that, after December, I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, working hard.

  And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, “No.” And I said, “Do you know Eugenio?” This is the war name for—. That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn’t mention his real name. He didn’t know.

  MR. LIEBELER. Who did you ask this?

  MRS. ODIO. I asked these men when they came to the door—I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, because I explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, “Were you sent by Eugenio,” and he said no. And I said, “Where [sic] you sent by Ray,” and he said no. And I said, “Well, is this on your own?” And he said, “’We have just come from New Orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work.” This was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to be nice, “Have you ever been to Cuba?” And he said, “No, I have never been to Cuba.”

  And I said, “Are you interested in our movement?” He said, “Yes.”

  This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and I said, “If you will excuse me, I have to leave,” and I repeated, “I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me.” And he said, “Is he still in the Isle of Pines?” And I think that was the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the window leaving in a car. I can’t recall the car. I have been trying to.

  MR. LIEBELER. Do you know which one of the men was driving?

  MRS. ODIO. The tall one, Leopoldo.

  MR. LIEBELER. Leopoldo?

  MRS. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night; it was almost 9 o’clock because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.

  They said, “We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour.” And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn’t ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami.

  MR. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going?

  MRS. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, “What do you think of the American?” And I said, “I didn’t think anything.”

  And he said, “You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts.” This was more or less—I can’t repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don’t have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated after the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation.

  And he said, “It is so easy to do it.” He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn’t repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.

  MR. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?

  MRS. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the American or Leon.

  MR. LIEBELER. Did he mention his last name the night before?

  MRS. ODIO. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again.

  MR. LIEBELER. But he did not mention Oswald’s name except as Leon?

  MRS. ODIO. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or an American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don’t remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something and he would see me. It’s been a long time and I don’t remember too well, that is more or less what he said.

  (X1:369-73)

  Appendix IV

  The FBI’s report reviewing Mrs. Odio’s story, dated September 9, 1964.

  FD-302 (Rev. 1-25-60)

  FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGA
TION

  Date September 10, 1964

  SYLVIA ODIO advised that she resides with her four small children in a one family house at 4223 West Levers Lane, Dallas, Texas. She stated that she is currently employed by Knob Associates, Incorporated, 250 Decorative Center, Dallas, Texas.

  Miss SYLIVA EUGENIA ODIO was born on May 4, 1937, at Havana, Cuba. She speaks English fluently.

  SYLVIA ODIO noted that she is planning to move with her four children around the end of September to Miami, Florida, where she intends to unite her nine brothers and sisters into one family. She stated she does not have a house located as yet in Miami, but her oldest brother, CESAR ODIO, presently resides at 1600 Southwest 82nd Place, Miami, Florida.

  Miss ODIO stated she is from a large family consisting of ten brothers and sisters, namely, CESAR, AMADOR, JAVIER, FREDDY, JORGE, SARA, ANNIE, MARY LOU, CRISTINA and herself. Her parents, AMADOR ODIO-PADRON and SARA DEL TORO, are still in Cuba. Her father is in jail on the Isle of Pines, Cuba, for being an enemy of the Castro Government. Her mother is now in Santiago de Cuba, Oriente, Cuba. She stated that all of her brothers and sisters are in the United States. Several of the younger brothers and sisters are now in an orphanage in Dallas. All of the brothers and sisters will be reunited in Miami, with the exception of one sister, SARA, who recently married JACOB MEIER and who will continue to reside in Dallas.

  On 9/9/64 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 100-10461 by Special Agent RICHARD J. BURNETT/ jtf

  Date dictated 9/9/64

  This document contains neither recommendations nor conclusions of the FBI. It is the property of the FBI and is loaned to your agency; it and its contents are not to be distributed outside your agency.