The Last Closet_The Dark Side of Avalon
Page 48
MZB: I have no idea.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if your daughter was married before or after Ken Smith’s molestation was reported to the police?
MZB: I thought I did, but I’m sure I don’t.
MR. DOLAN: Are you still focused on the questions? Are you having any difficulty answering now? Are you mentally—are you still here in time and space?
MZB: Yes. I’m trying to make up a time line in my mind.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Very good. Other than your discussion with Moira prior to her marriage regarding the legality or illegality of Walter’s contact with minor children, did you ever discuss that topic with anyone else?
MZB: I can’t think of anyone.
MR. DOLAN: When you and Walter were thinking about adopting [Barry Austin], did you ever have a discussion with Walter saying, Walter, if we adopt [Barry Austin] you can’t have sex with him?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Tell me about that.
MZB: I just told him flat out that if we adopted [Barry Austin] he would be our son and nothing else. That it was not to be a boyfriend or anything of that sort.
MR. DOLAN: At that point did you have any concerns that Walter might be having sex with [Barry Austin] such that it caused you to tell Walter that?
MZB: I did not. I was just sort of vaguely thinking back on our whole background.
MR. DOLAN: And when you say your “whole background,” what do you mean by that?
MZB: Of everything that had happened since I had first met Walter and everything everyone else had said about him.
MR. DOLAN: Now, you said that he would be your son and nothing else. Do you think that would put him in a different category than other young boys?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. WALKER: I’ll join in that. And vague and ambiguous.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer it.
MZB: I don’t believe that I formulated it in any way.
MR. DOLAN: What did you mean by your statement to Walter that he would be our son and nothing else?
MZB: That if he had any idea in his mind that the boy might be a subject for his—his sexual interests, he should put that right out of his mind right away.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And why would–
MZB: That if he ever had such an idea, and I wasn’t accusing him of it, that he should not continue thinking that way.
MR. DOLAN: All right. And did you think that—Was that solely because he was going to be adopted by you?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So if he wasn’t to be adopted by you, then you would not have had this conversation with Walter about this boy being a part of his sexual interests?
MR. BAKER: Objection.
MR. WALKER: Objection. That lacks foundation.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
MR. WALKER: Speculation.
MR. DOLAN: You can answer it.
MZB: I didn’t speculate on my husband’s affairs. We were no longer living together at that time, and I paid very little attention to what was going on.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. You weren’t living together. Where was Walter living at that time?
MZB: He was living a couple of doors up the street.
MR. DOLAN: In the gold fishbowl?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: So at the time that he was living in the gold fishbowl and you were aware that [Barry Austin] might be adopted by you, you told Walter that he could not be a subject of Walter’s sexual affection; is that correct?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And did you understand that [Barry Austin] might be spending time at that other premises where Walter was living?
MZB: Yes, I did.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And did you feel that you had some responsibility to [Barry Austin] to tell Walter–
MZB: Yes. That if we had adopted [Barry Austin], he would have been our son.
MR. DOLAN: So, did you feel you had some responsibility to [Barry Austin] to tell Walter no sex with [Barry Austin]?
MZB: Yes. I laid down the law very firmly.
MR. DOLAN: All right.
MZB: It was one of the reasons we—we eventually split up.
MR. DOLAN: What do you mean by that?
MZB: He was very upset with me. He said I didn’t trust him, and, of course, I didn’t.
MR. DOLAN: So you didn’t trust Walter around young boys at that time, did you?
MZB: At that point, no.
MR. DOLAN: And do you know approximately what year that was?
MZB: I am afraid I couldn’t tell you.
MR. DOLAN: Can you give me an estimate or approximation?
MZB: I think I began to think differently of him about—about 1975 or ’6.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So sometime—Was it sometime around then that [Barry Austin] came along?
MZB: I think it was after that.
MR. DOLAN: Approximately how long after that?
MZB: I couldn’t tell you.
MR. DOLAN: Can you give me an estimate or an approximation, was it before 1980, between ’80 and ’85, anything you can do to help me?
MZB: It might have been.
MR. DOLAN: Might have been which?
MZB: Might have been between ’80 and ’85. [Barry Austin]—I saw [Barry Austin] a few weeks ago.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. So you were concerned that Walter might have some inappropriate sexual relationship with [Barry Austin] over at the other house?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And you told him that that was completely prohibited; right?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And how old did you understand [Barry Austin] to be at that time?
MZB: I thought he was about 12 or 13.
MR. DOLAN: And how big was [Barry Austin]?
MZB: He was small and fragile.
MR. DOLAN: So, did you feel you had a responsibility at that time to protect [Barry Austin] from Walter?
MZB: Yes, I did. More than anybody else I felt very protective toward [Barry Austin].
MR. DOLAN: And what was—made you feel that more than anybody else you had a responsibility to [Barry Austin]?
MZB: Well, when he was around he’d come sit on my lap sometimes and things like that, so I developed a certain feeling that he didn’t have any other family and that I’d take care of him.
MR. DOLAN: Did Walter ever refuse to agree to your condition that he not have sex with [Barry Austin]?
MZB: He didn’t. No, he didn’t.
MR. DOLAN: Did he ever agree to it?
MZB: I don’t remember.
I don’t think he said in so many words no, I will not have sex with [Barry Austin]. I think he said something like, You don’t have to worry about that or something.
MR. DOLAN: Was this topic of sex with [Barry Austin] at all one of the reasons why [Barry Austin] was never adopted?
MZB: Not that I know of.
MR. DOLAN: What was your understanding as to the reason why [Barry Austin] wasn’t adopted?
MZB: I believe that his—his father was in prison, wanted to maintain a relationship with him and didn’t want him adopted.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever interviewed by the people at CPS regarding the adoption?
MZB: Yes, I was. We went and attended a couple of classes on adoption.
MR. DOLAN: Did they ever ask you whether either of you had ever had any problems with sex with minors?
MZB: The question did not come up. Of that I am perfectly sure.
MR. DOLAN: What makes you say you’re perfectly sure of that?
MZB: Because I think I would have remembered that.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever inform them that Walter had had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel]?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell them that you were concerned about Walter perhaps having a sexual relationship with [Barry Austin]?
MZB: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Why didn’t you?
MZB: I think the only answer I can ma
ke to that is that it’s quite obvious that you have never been in love.
MR. DOLAN: Can you explain that further? I don’t understand your answer.
MZB: Simply that the subject did not come up even in my mind. It came up briefly, and I mentioned it, and that was the end of it.
MR. DOLAN: So the subject did come up in your mind enough for you to raise it Walter; correct?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: But you didn’t raise it with the child protective authorities?
MZB: No.
MR. DOLAN: And you’re saying that’s because of your love for Walter?
MZB: I don’t know if by then it was love or just a general sense of protectiveness.
MR. DOLAN: So, was you’re not telling CPS an effort to protect Walter?
MZB: I suspect it must have been.
MR. DOLAN: As you sit here today, do you believe that you’re not telling CPS was in an effort to protect Walter?
MR. WALKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. DOLAN: You may answer it.
MZB: I suspect it must have been.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. How are you doing? You need a break?
MZB: No. I’m all right.
MR. DOLAN: Are there any other boys that you told Walter you’re not to have sex with that boy?
MZB: Well, Moira at one time complained that Walter was coming on to one of her boyfriends.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MZB: And I went up to Walter’s house and I said, “Look, this is not a good thing to do.”
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Which boyfriend was that; do you remember?
MZB: I think his name was [Gregg Howell] something.
(No, Gregg Howell was not my boyfriend. But Walter made passes at Sterling and Nick and every other young man who was near him.)
MR. DOLAN: [Gregg Howell]?
MZB: It could have been.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Did Moira ever—So Moira said to you she was afraid that Walter might be trying to have sex with [Gregg Howell]?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Approximately when was this?
MZB: I don’t remember the date. I think at that time it was—she was at University of California then.
(I never went to University of California.)
MR. DOLAN: How old did you understand [Gregg Howell] to be?
MZB: I thought he was 17 or 18.
(When I complained about Gregg, he was 13.)
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever ask him, [Gregg Howell], about what was going on?
MZB: No, I didn’t. But I mean, the two of them were going around together, and he looked to be 18 or 19.
MR. DOLAN: And did you tell Walter not to have sex with [Gregg Howell]?
MZB: I just said that Moira would not approve.
MR. DOLAN: So it was based upon Moira being unhappy with the situation?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell Walter when he was living in the gold fishbowl that he was not to have sex with minors in that home?
MZB: I never mentioned the matter.
MR. DOLAN: You were the landlord there, weren’t you?
MZB: I owned the house.
MR. DOLAN: Did you lease it to Walter?
MZB: No. I let him live in it because he needed a place to live.
MR. DOLAN: So it’s your testimony that you never leased it to him?
MZB: Not formally, no.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Let’s mark this as plaintiff’s next in order. (Plaintiff’s Exhibit 5 was marked for identification.)
MR. DOLAN: It’s already been marked as Plaintiff’s 3 to Elisabeth Water’s deposition, but we’ll just mark it for this one too.
MR. DOLAN: See your signature on this document?
MZB: Oh, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. What’s the date of that document at the top?
MZB: February ’94.
MR. DOLAN: Actually, it says ’86, doesn’t it?
MZB: I can’t tell. Yes, I guess it does say ’86.
MR. DOLAN: Having seen this document, do you want to change your testimony as to whether or not you formally leased that premise to Walter Breen?
MZB: I can only think that it’s something that somebody stuck in front of me and said, sign this, and I saw Elisabeth’s name was already on it and signed it. I was not aware of what it was.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to 1986 did you know that Walter Breen had had sex with minor boys?
MZB: Yes. I have said that on several occasions now.
MR. DOLAN: And you rented that place to him anyways; right?
MZB: Well, he needed a place to live.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MZB: What was I supposed to do, throw him out in the street?
MR. DOLAN: I’ll withhold my comments.
MZB: Well, I–
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any activity to ensure that Walter Breen would not molest young boys at this property that you rented to him?
MZB: As I say, at the time [Barry Austin] was there. I told him [Barry Austin] was off limits, and I told him [Gregg Howell] was off limits.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. But the other ones weren’t off limits?
MZB: I never knew there were any others there.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell him it would be off limits to molest young boys on your property?
MZB: In those words, no.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell him that he was not to have young boys on your property?
MZB: I did not tell him that in those words, no.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know that he had young boys on your property?
MZB: I did not.
MR. DOLAN: You knew that he had [Barry Austin] there?
MZB: Yes. Well, that was different. [Barry Austin] was there because of both of us.
MR. DOLAN: You knew he had [Glenn Frendel] there; right?
MZB: No; [Glenn Frendel] never came to that place —
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MZB:—to the best of my knowledge and belief.
MR. DOLAN: You knew he had Ken Smith there, didn’t you?
MZB: I don’t know who Ken Smith is or who he was. I wouldn’t know Ken Smith from—well, I would know President Reagan because I saw him on T.V., so I can’t say I wouldn’t know him from President Reagan.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall telling the police you met Ken Smith when Walter brought him around?
MZB: Yes, I do. I mean, sometime after he had been living in the gold fishbowl for quite awhile.
MR. DOLAN: You knew that he had Ken Smith over there; right?
MZB: Well, he came in one day with Ken Smith, so I assumed it.
MR. DOLAN: So you assumed at some point after Walter moved into the gold fishbowl and you rented it to Walter that Walter had Ken Smith over there; right?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell Walter, You can’t molest Ken Smith over there?
MZB: I didn’t know him from Adam or Fox.
MR. DOLAN: But you met him and knew Walter had him over there and–
MZB: Oh, yes.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever tell Walter, Ken Smith is off limits?
MZB: It never occurred to me. I think what I probably thought was that was up to Ken Smith to tell him if he didn’t want to.
MR. DOLAN: So at that point you believed it was up to Ken Smith to tell him if he didn’t want to have sex with Walter?
MZB: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Can we take a couple-second break? We’re getting pretty close to our hour, but I want to take a two-minute break. Just two minutes.
MR. WALKER: Okay. Well, I mean, we have about two minutes left in the deposition.
MR. DOLAN: Actually, my stopwatch shows that I have about seven minutes left, and I hope you’ll give me two minutes’ credit. And I’m giving you time off with my client’s deposition. I mean, I wouldn’t jam you on two minutes here. I’m trying to be polite.
(Whereupon, the deposition adjourned at 12:24 p.m.)
MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY
I, the undersigned, he
reby certify that the witness in the foregoing deposition was, by me, duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the within-entitled cause. That said deposition was taken in shorthand by me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and a disinterested person, at the time and place therein stated, and that the testimony of said witness was thereafter reduced to typewriting, by computer, under my direction and supervision. I further certify that I am not of counsel or attorney for either or any of the parties of the said deposition, nor in any way interested in the event of this cause, and that I am not related to any of the parties thereto.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand, this 29th day of December 1998.
Janine P. Branco
25 CSR #10372
Appendix C: Lisa’s Complete Deposition (1997)
(My annotations are in parentheses, and in bold. I have replaced [Victim X,] [Name A,] and [Johnny Does 1–4] with names, to the best of my knowledge and belief.)
DEPOSITION OF ELISABETH WATERS - 10/16/97
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
—oOo—
KEN SMITH, Plaintiff, 6 vs. No. 778220-2
MARION Z. BRADLEY, ELISABETH WATERS, and Does 1 through 8 10 inclusive, Defendants.
DEPOSITION OF ELISABETH WATERS
Thursday, October 16, 1997
REPORTED BY: KARLA SHALLENBERGER, CSR No. 10752
SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES - (415) 771-1988
1 I N D E X
3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 MR. DOLAN 5
6 INDEX OF PLAINTIFF’S EXHIBITS
7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
1 Deed of trust note 111
Quit claim deed 114
Rental agreement 115
Copy of interview 121with J.Z. Eglinton
5 Employment agreement 140
6 11/15/89 letter from 141 Ms. Waters to Mr. Breen
7 Personal journal entries 198 of Ms. Waters 10/20/89
QUESTIONS MARKED FOR THE RECORD: PAGE LINE DEPOSITION OF ELISABETH WATERS
BE IT REMEMBERED that pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, and on Thursday, October 16, 1997,
commencing at the hour of 10:15 a.m. thereof, at the Law Offices of CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN
before me, KARLASHALLENBERGER, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in the State
of California, there personally appeared ELISABETH WATERS, called as witness, who being by me first duly sworn,