ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you familiar with a home called the “goldfish bowl”, referenced as the goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: Are you referring to 3031 Fulton Street?
MR. DOLAN: I believe that’s what I’m referring to, yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know that to be commonly known as the goldfish bowl?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever lived there?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Is there another one that’s 2024 Fulton Street that was owned by Marion at one point?
ELISABETH WATERS: That was 3024 Fulton Street that was owned by Marion and Patrick.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever live there?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Is it your testimony that since 1981 you have always resided at the Prince Street address except for trips to conventions and business or family and whatever?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Could you please list any parties who live at the Prince Street address while you resided there other than yourself, Marion, and Patrick?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, Moira was living there when we first moved there.
MR. DOLAN: Okay.
MR. BURESH: That’s no constraint as to time on this; this is the entire time she has lived there, all the people who have lived in the house throughout the entire time she lived there?
MR. DOLAN: Let’s take this here. We’ll break it down. I got a feeling.
MR. DOLAN: Let’s take from ’81 to ’85.
ELISABETH WATERS: All right. In 1981 it was Marion and me and Patrick and Moira. In 1982, Moira moved out to live with some friends, and a fosterling called Cynthia Becket moved in. She lived with us until I think early ’84, and she got married in 1984. Then there was another fosterling Kathryn Krischild. I’m sorry, what time period were we?
MR. DOLAN: ’81 to ’85.
ELISABETH WATERS: Elizabeth Rousseau may have moved in during that time period. Generally, a lot of the kids’ friends would come and stay with us for various periods of time.
MR. DOLAN: Any others that you can recall from ’81 to ’85?
ELISABETH WATERS: Let’s see, there was a child named Barry Austin who was there briefly. He was a runaway and Social Services temporarily placed him with us, but that didn’t work out, and we had to ask Social Services to take him back.
MR. DOLAN: Any others during that time period?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my recollection.
MR. DOLAN: Do you recall anybody named [other name] ever living there?
ELISABETH WATERS: I remember a boy named [Gregg Howell]. I think he was one of Moira’s boyfriends. [Gregg Howell] and Nick and Patrick and Moira hung around together when—about the time when Moira was 15 and Patrick was 16, but he didn’t live there. He lived in San Francisco with his mother.
(Lisa is claiming that [Gregg Howell] Gregg Howell is my boyfriend???? He was gay!!)
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if [Gregg Howell] ever spent the night there?
ELISABETH WATERS: At Prince Street? Not to the best of my knowledge, no.
MR. DOLAN: Anyone else during the ’81 to ’85 time period that lived in the home?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I recall off the top of my head.
MR. DOLAN: Does [full name of Cyndi Beckett] have another name she was known by?
(Is Cyndi Beckett Cynthia Beckett, AKA Cyndi Nha June?)
ELISABETH WATERS: She was later [Cyndi Beckett].
MR. DOLAN: How old was [Cyndi Beckett] when she lived at the Prince Street address, if you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: 18, 19 and 20.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know her birth date?
ELISABETH WATERS: October 5th, 1963.
MR. DOLAN: How old was Kathryn Krischild when she lived there; do you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think she was a couple of years older than the rest of the kids. [Cyndi Beckett] was a year older than Patrick, and I think Kat was a couple years older than that.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Kat lives now?
ELISABETH WATERS: Shattuck Avenue, Berkeley.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where on Shattuck?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it’s 3024.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know her phone number?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not off the top of my head.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where [Cyndi Beckett] lives now?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she’s known by any other names?
ELISABETH WATERS: She married [Mr. X], so she might be known as [Mrs. X[.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she was ever known as [Nickname]?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to my knowledge. Certainly not during the time I knew her.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Miss Krischild is known by any other names?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t believe I have ever heard any other names for her.
MR. DOLAN: Do you mind if we break for a minute?
(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Miss Krischild is known by any other names?
ELISABETH WATERS: I thought I just answered that, no.
MR. DOLAN: You may have.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Lisa Rousseau lives?
ELISABETH WATERS: Somewhere in San Francisco. I don’t know the exact address.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what street?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who she lives with, if anyone?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she is known by any other names currently?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if she’s married?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe she is not.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where Barry Austin lives?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: How old was Barry Austin when he lived at the house?
ELISABETH WATERS: 12.
MR. DOLAN: How long did he live there?
ELISABETH WATERS: A couple of months, I believe.
MR. DOLAN: How old was [Eric] Worth during the time period ’84 to ’85?
(Eric Worth, of course)
ELISABETH WATERS: Who?
MR. DOLAN: Is that his last name, [Eric] Worth, do you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know anyone by that name.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what [Eric]’s last name was?
ELISABETH WATERS: You mean the [Eric Worth] that hung out with Moira and Patrick?
MR. BURESH: The witness has testified that he didn’t live there.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Well, he was there in and out.
MR. DOLAN: How old was [Eric Worth]–
MS. DURRELL: I’m going to object, that misstates the witness’s testimony.
MR. BURESH: Why don’t you just say what you said before about [other name]’s presence at the house.
THE WITNESS: Maybe he was there three or four times. I didn’t see much of him.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you have any idea how old he was?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe he was 15. As I said, I thought he was Moira’s boyfriend, and she was 15.
MR. DOLAN: Were you ever advised by Moira that [Gregg Howell] was found in Walter’s bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
(Yes. I told her that Gregg Howell was in Walter’s bed.)
MR. DOLAN: At any time prior to today, has Moira ever told you that [Gregg Howell] was in Walter’s bed?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my recollection.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever live at Prince Street before moving to Telegraph Avenue for any period of time?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever visit there?
ELISABETH WATERS: While I was–
MR. DOLAN: Prince Street?
ELISA
BETH WATERS: Oh, you mean before I moved out there?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever heard of a man by the name of [Glenn Frendel]?
(It sounds as though Glenn Frendel is Glen Frendel.)
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I have heard the name. I have never met him.
MR. DOLAN: How have you heard the name [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: If he’s the one I’m thinking of, he was somebody that Walter was accused of molesting back in the early ’60s or something. I don’t really know much of anything about it.
MR. DOLAN: When did you first hear that Walter had been accused of molesting [Glenn Frendel] in the early ’60s?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it was sometime in the ’80s. It was some sort of science fiction fan feud that Marion told me had happened back around the time she and Walter were married.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion ever tell you that Walter had had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel] before they were married?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever hear Marion make such a statement to anyone that Walter had had a sexual relationship with [Glenn Frendel] before they were married?
ELISABETH WATERS: When we told her about Kenny, she said that she thought he might. I don’t remember her exact words, but she seemed to think there was a possibility then that he had molested [Glenn Frendel], but that wasn’t until October of 1989.
MR. DOLAN: So in October of ’89 when you told her that she may have molested Ken–
ELISABETH WATERS: That Walter may have molested Ken.
MR. DOLAN: Strike that. I’m out of it from this car thing. I’ll start over again. In October of 1989 when you told Marion that Walter may have molested Kenny, she told you that she thought there was a possibility that Walter may have also molested [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: When we told her that Walter had molested Kenny—by then we were pretty sure—she seemed to think that if Walter was capable of molesting Kenny then perhaps he had also molested [Glenn Frendel].
MR. BURESH: [Name 1]or [Name 2]? We’ve got two names here. I know they’re in the police report.
ELISABETH WATERS: Possibly both of them.
MR. BURESH: Are you confusing [Name 1]with [Name 2] in your answers?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. BURESH: Okay.
ELISABETH WATERS: [Name 1]I knew. [Name 2] I didn’t.
(Name 2 is Glen Frendel) (Name 1 is Gregg Howell)
MR. BURESH: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: Did she ever tell you that Walter may have possibly molested [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: Didn’t I answer that?
MR. DOLAN: I’m trying to–
MR. BURESH: We talked about [Glenn Frendel] and now we’re talking about [Name 2]. Why don’t we get the names straight?
ELISABETH WATERS: I thought we were talking about [Name 2].
MR. DOLAN: Who is [Name 2]?
ELISABETH WATERS: [Name 2]is the kid in the Breen boondoggle, which was a big fannish scandal back when I was in grade school in Connecticut.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. And [Name 1] is the boy who was referenced as possibly being the boyfriend of Moira’s, correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MS. DURRELL: Is that—excuse me, is that [Glenn Frendel]?
MR. DOLAN: No, I think I have that wrong. It’s [other name].
ELISABETH WATERS: Yeah, I think his last name is [other name] or something like that.
MR. DOLAN: I think I got the two mixed up because they both begin with G. I’ll try to be more careful.
MS. DURRELL: Let me ask then, this testimony that’s been going on about [Glenn Frendel], is that a separate [first name] from [other name]?
MR. DOLAN: It’s [Glenn Frendel] and [other name].
ELISABETH WATERS: We have been—at least I have been talking about [Glenn Frendel].
MR. DOLAN: Right, okay. Let me start over again.
ELISABETH WATERS: Okay.
MS. DURRELL: Maybe you should take few days off before you continue.
MR. DOLAN: I have been told that. Let’s sort of clean this up here.
MR. DOLAN: [Glenn Frendel], when did you first hear about him?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think it was sometime in the 1980’s.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you know approximately when?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Was it before Kenny Smith was reported as being molested?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: How long before Kenny Smith had been reported as being molested had you heard about [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Can you give me an estimate or approximation?
ELISABETH WATERS: Five years plus or minus three.
MR. DOLAN: How did you hear about [Glenn Frendel] in that time period that you just referenced?
ELISABETH WATERS: Somebody referred to some old fannish scandal. It was a fan feud. Apparently Walter and some other fan were in competition for some fannish award, and the fan accused him of molesting [Glenn Frendel], and there was a police investigation, and the police apparently cleared Walter, and there was—I gather people argued about whether Walter should be something called FAPA, which I believes stands for Fantasy Amateur Press Association. And it’s a sort of round-robin news letter, although why anybody would want to be in it is a mystery to me, but apparently it was a big thing to Walter and Marion.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you know if Walter was ever banished from Worldcon as a result of this?
ELISABETH WATERS: As a result of what?
MR. DOLAN: The episode with—the accusation regarding [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I ever heard.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any information of whether Walter Breen was excluded from the 1964 Worldcon?
ELISABETH WATERS: I have no knowledge of that.
MR. DOLAN: Were you aware of the fracas that was happening regarding this issue at any time when you yourself were a younger child before you became involved with the Zimmer Bradley Enterprises?
ELISABETH WATERS: Are you asking if I knew about that before I met Marion?
MR. DOLAN: Correct.
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I did not.
MR. DOLAN: Did you know if Walter was ever blackballed from the FAPA waiting list?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe he was. I think that was a–
MR. BURESH: The question was whether you know, not what you believe. We are venturing into speculation here. The question is whether you know.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any reason to believe that Walter was ever blackballed from the FAPA waiting list?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t think so, no.
MR. DOLAN: Did anyone ever tell you that Walter was excluded from FAPA?
ELISABETH WATERS: I got the impression from what Marion said about it that he was for a time or that there was some big debate as to whether or not he should be admitted.
MR. DOLAN: Who was it in the 1980’s that brought this issue regarding [Glenn Frendel] to your attention?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember. I think it may have been Marion.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me everything you can recall regarding the discussion that concerned [Glenn Frendel] at that time in the 1980’s?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think we were discussing science fiction FANDOM feuds and how silly they were. That’s really all I remember.
MR. DOLAN: What do you remember about the discussions specifically concerning Walter’s conduct, if any, with [Glenn Frendel]?
MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already testified to?
MR. DOLAN: Right.
ELISABETH WATERS: Other than what I have already testified to, nothing.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion ever give you any opinion of her own at that time as to whether or not she thought the charges had any basis to it?
ELISABETH WATERS: At that time, no.
; MR. DOLAN: At a later time, did she?
ELISABETH WATERS: I have already mentioned the conversation in October of 1989.
MR. DOLAN: Can you tell me with specificity what happened in that conversation in 1989 regarding [Glenn Frendel]?
ELISABETH WATERS: Raul and I picked her up at the airport, and while she was gone we had found out that Walter really had molested Kenny, so on the way home from the airport we told her, and she was very upset, and she said that if Walter was capable of that, then maybe he molested [Glenn Frendel] and [other name] as well.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else that she said about that?
ELISABETH WATERS: That she was going to divorce him.
MR. DOLAN: Anything else?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think that’s about it.
MR. DOLAN: Did she give you any indication of whether she had ever told Walter that if he did this again she was going to divorce him?
ELISABETH WATERS: She said something about, she had always said that if he did this again, she would divorce him, but I’m not sure whether she was talking to him or to herself.
MR. DOLAN: You heard her say the words, though, “If he did this again, I was going to divorce him”?
MR. BURESH: The exact words, or words to that effect? I don’t know what your question is.
MR. DOLAN: The best I can get.
MR. DOLAN: What was your best recollection regarding what she said in that regard?
ELISABETH WATERS: My best recollection is that she said," I always said if he did this again I would divorce him."
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever heard her say that before?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever heard her say that after that time that she was riding in the car on the way home?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Approximately what date is this date that you picked her up at the airport?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it was October 9th, 1989.
MR. DOLAN: When she was using the word “again,” did you ask her what do you mean by “again”?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you have any understanding as to what she meant by the word “again”?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you undertake any inquiry of any type whatsoever to find out what Marion meant by the words, “if he did this again”?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I did not.
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