MR. DOLAN: Since that time have you ever come to understand what Marion meant when she said, “If he did this again, I would divorce him”?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: And you have never asked Marion what she meant by that, have you?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever discussed it with Raul, that particular phraseology of what Marion said?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my recollection.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever discussed it with anyone else?
MR. BURESH: Besides her attorney?
ELISABETH WATERS: My attorney.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. I won’t call that a waiver.
MR. DOLAN: Going back to this thing that has come to be known as “the boondoggle”, have you ever heard it called that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: When I use the word the " boondoggle", I’m talking about this episode that occurred at some point in FANDOM regarding Walter’s alleged acts of molestation of children; do you understand that?
ELISABETH WATERS: Walter’s alleged acts of molestation with [Glenn Frendel]. I never heard that there were any other children involved.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Do you know if there are any documents that concern this alleged act of molestation with [Glenn Frendel] from the boondoggle?
ELISABETH WATERS: None that I know of.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if the Worldcon has a governing body there, an organization that runs it?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: And what is the name of that organization?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it’s called The World Science Fiction Society.
MR. DOLAN: Where is The World Science Fiction Society located?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever send in registrations for Worldcon?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you send them to?
ELISABETH WATERS: To whatever convention committee is running the Worldcon that year.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if they’re a business or a corporation, The World Science Fiction Society?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know. I have never really paid all that much attention to the business end of how it’s run.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who the current president of that society is?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Has Marion ever been the president of that society?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know where the current committee is located for the next Worldcon?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe the next Worldcon is in Baltimore.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know how I could find out who the parties are associated with the Worldcon organizing committee for Baltimore?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe they have a Web page.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any other ideas of how I could locate them besides a Web page?
ELISABETH WATERS: Locus Magazine, that’s L-o-c-u-s. They have convention lists, and you just look through the listing for them.
MR. DOLAN: Where is Locus Magazine out of?
ELISABETH WATERS: It’s published out of Oakland.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if they have a publishing office or editorial office there in Oakland?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: You indicated that the police investigated Walter for this issue regarding [Glenn Frendel] and cleared him; do you know what police you were talking about?
ELISABETH WATERS: No. Marion just said that they had. I don’t know it of my own knowledge.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding as you sit here today which police department that may have been?
MR. BURESH: Are you asking her to speculate?
MR. DOLAN: No, I asked for her understanding.
MR. BURESH: As to what it may have been? I’ll object. Calls for speculation.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any understanding as to what police department investigated Walter at that time?
MR. BURESH: Asked and answered. I mean, if you got any. I mean, do you know where it happened?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Is there anyone that you know who I could speak to who would have better information than you on this issue of the boondoggle?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think most of the people who were involved in it are dead by now. So, no, I’m afraid I don’t.
MR. DOLAN: Would Marion have more information on the boondoggle than you?
ELISABETH WATERS: In her present condition, I’m afraid not.
MR. DOLAN: Were any of the other members of Greyhaven involved with the science fiction community back at the time of the boondoggle?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Have you ever discussed the boondoggle with anyone other than Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not that I recall.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Walter has been investigated by any other police other than the Oakland police, the L.A. police, and whatever police may have investigated him in the [Glenn Frendel] issue?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know that Walter was ever investigated by the Oakland police.
MR. DOLAN: The Berkeley police, excuse me.
ELISABETH WATERS: There was that thing in Atlantic City that came up in the stuff you sent us, but other than that, I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: When did you first learn about Walter’s arrest for the lewd and lascivious behavior in Atlantic city?
ELISABETH WATERS: When you sent us the information.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever discuss that with Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: Not to the best of my recollection.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever hear Marion talk about Walter’s arrest in Atlantic City?
ELISABETH WATERS: Wasn’t that in 1954?
MR. DOLAN: I am just asking in–
MR. BURESH: Well, regardless of when it was, he’s asking–
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever hear Marion talk about it?
MR. BURESH: Also I’m presuming all of these questions are directed to conversations that were outside the presence of counsel.
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I never heard Marion discuss it. And since it would have been about 10 years before she met him, there is no reason she would have known about it.
MR. DOLAN: I move to strike.
MR. DOLAN: The question was just, have you ever heard her discuss it?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Are you aware if Walter Breen has ever been investigated by any police agencies other than the ones that we have identified as the Atlantic City police, the ones who investigated the [Glenn Frendel] issue, the Berkeley police, and the Los Angeles police?
ELISABETH WATERS: To the best of my knowledge, that’s all.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if Walter has ever been investigated to your knowledge by any child protective services?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, when we got Barry as a foster child, there was the investigation, I think, that was run by Child Protective Services because we were certified as a foster home for this child.
MR. DOLAN: Were you involved in that process at all of the investigation?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think they asked me a few questions.
MR. DOLAN: Did they ask you any questions about Walter Breen and his sexual activity?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did they ask anything about child molestation in any way?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that they investigated you, did you have any knowledge as to whether or not Walter Breen had any particular beliefs regarding the age of consent for sexuality?
MR. BURESH: I’ll object to the form of the question. You said, “At the time they investigated you.”I don’t know if you mean this particular witness or who you are talking about.
MR. DOLAN: I will rephrase it.
MR. DOLAN: At the time the Child Protec
tive Services investigated the suitability of the family for placement of a child, did you have any understanding as to Walter Breen’s idealogy regarding the age of consent as it concerned children?
MR. BURESH: Age of consent for sexual conduct?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
MS. DURRELL: Do you understand the question?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t think so.
MR. DOLAN: At the time that you were—that your family unit was being, shall we say, “investigated,” for lack of a better word, for suitability of placement of a foster child—do you understand when I’m saying that part?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: During that time when this was going on and you were talking to the Child Protective Services people who were doing that investigation—we are focusing on that time period, okay?
ELISABETH WATERS: Okay.
MR. DOLAN: At that point did you know Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: At that point did you have any understanding as to whether Walter Breen thought that the “pedophilic tradition of education,” as it’s been referred to in his writings, was appropriate?
ELISABETH WATERS: I have never seen any writings of Walter which refer to the pedophilic tradition of education, and I don’t know what that term means.
MR. DOLAN: At that time did you have any understanding as to how Walter felt regarding sex between men and boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: I do not believe so, no.
MR. DOLAN: At that point were you aware that Walter had written any works whatsoever on the subject of sex between men and boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
(We are seriously expected to believe that Lisa knew nothing of my father’s open conduct or writing.)
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever discussed that topic with Walter Breen at any time prior to the placement of Barry with the family?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Had you ever discussed that topic with Marion at any time prior to the placement of Barry with the family?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge did Marion Zimmer Bradley ever alert the Child Protective Services that Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: To your knowledge–
ELISABETH WATERS: Oh, to my knowledge, no, she didn’t.
MR. DOLAN: Were you present when they discussed the placement of Barry with the family, Marion and CPS?
MR. BURESH: When you say “they discussed.”
MR. DOLAN: I said" Marion and CPS". I just clarified that.
MR. BURESH: I’m sorry.
ELISABETH WATERS: No, no.
MR. DOLAN: Were you present when—did CPS discuss it with Walter, the placement of that child with the family; do you know?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know. I would imagine they must have, but I don’t know.
MR. DOLAN: Who was present when you discussed the placement of this child with the family?
MR. BURESH: With Child Protective Services?
MR. DOLAN: Yes.
ELISABETH WATERS: I’m not even sure, now that I think of it, that it was an oral discussion. I think they may have just had us fill out questionnaires.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if you still have copies of those questionnaires?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, we don’t. I don’t know if we ever did.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know what agency placed this child?
ELISABETH WATERS: I wouldn’t know the proper name, but the kid was from San Francisco, so it would have been whatever agency had jurisdiction over runaway kids in San Francisco.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any records whatsoever in the home that you’re aware of there on Prince Street that relate to the placement of this child with the family?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, we do not.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if it was a public or private agency that placed the child within the home?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it was public.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if anybody within the family alerted the agency that placed this child in the home that Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I don’t know. That was the question, wasn’t it, did I know?
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware that Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love prior to the placement of this child within the family?
MR. BURESH: Let me hear the question back again, please.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware that Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love prior to the placement of this child in the family.
MR. BURESH: I’m not sure what the time frame refers to, whether it refers to when she knew or when Marion knew or–
MR. DOLAN: I’m just asking if she has any knowledge as she sits here today as to whether or not Marion was aware prior to the placement of this child within that family that Walter had written the book Greek Love.
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Can you explain that answer for me?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, I believe she did know that he had written the book Greek Love.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not the boondoggle had occurred before or after this child was placed within the family?
ELISABETH WATERS: It was before.
MR. DOLAN: Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley alerted the CPS workers that Walter had been accused of molesting [Glenn Frendel] prior to this child being placed within the family?
ELISABETH WATERS: I do not have knowledge of that.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know if anybody within the family unit notified CPS that Walter had been accused of molesting [Glenn Frendel] prior to the placement of this child, Barry, within the family unit?
ELISABETH WATERS: I have no knowledge of that.
MR. DOLAN: Prior to the placement of this child, Barry, within the family unit, and this is sometime you said in the 1981 to ’85 time frame; is that correct?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe it was in 1981.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Prior to 1981, did you have any understanding as to Walter Breen’s opinions on the issue of sex between men and boys?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, not really.
MR. DOLAN: Not really? Did you have any idea whatsoever what his beliefs were on that subject?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t know, at some point I knew that he had written a book about man-boy love throughout history, but I didn’t have any idea whether that reflected on his actual current opinions.
MR. DOLAN: Okay. Had you ever discussed the topic of Walter and young boys with Marion Zimmer Bradley prior to the placement of Barry within the home in 1981?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes, in 19—I think it was 1980, I saw a letter that Walter had written to his therapist, Dr. Morin, and he said that he missed Sterling—who was another one of the kids who hung around. He was a friend of Patrick’s—not just because he was horny but because—I forget the rest, but that phrase struck me as so odd that I went and asked Marion about it.
MR. DOLAN: And Marion said that Walter had been completely impotent since Moira was two, so I thought that Walter was just bragging to his therapist, you know, the way teenage boys brag to their friends about having scored with their girlfriends when they haven’t, because Walter was about that immature.
MR. DOLAN: Was this prior to the placement of this child within the home, Barry?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know why Walter was seeing this therapist, Dr. Morin?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Do you know who was paying for that therapy?
ELISABETH WATERS: Walter was.
MR. DOLAN: Do you still have a copy of that letter?
ELISABETH WATERS: I never had the letter in my possession. I saw it on the music room floor.
&n
bsp; MR. DOLAN: Do you know if a copy of that letter still exists in the possession of anyone within the Breen family or Zimmer Bradley family?
ELISABETH WATERS: No, I would certainly very much doubt that it would. I don’t know that.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever see that letter at any time after the point that you showed it to Marion?
ELISABETH WATERS: I didn’t show it to Marion. I saw it, and I asked her about it, but, no, I never saw it again.
MR. DOLAN: Did Marion and you ever have any discussions other than what you have just described to me regarding that letter at that time?
ELISABETH WATERS: I think I mentioned it again in October of 1989 when she was talking about boys Walter might have molested. But basically, no, you know, I said this looks weird. Marion said, no, this is impossible and forgot about it for 10 years.
MR. DOLAN: Who was Sterling?
ELISABETH WATERS: Sterling was a friend of Patrick’s.
MR. DOLAN: What was his full name?
ELISABETH WATERS: I believe his last name was Orser, O-r-s-e-r.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see Walter and Sterling together?
ELISABETH WATERS: Yes.
MR. DOLAN: Where did you see?
ELISABETH WATERS: I mean, Sterling hung around the house a lot. He didn’t like his stepfather, so he spent a lot of time at our house.
MR. DOLAN: What time period was this that Sterling was hanging around the house?
ELISABETH WATERS: 1979 to 1981, maybe.
MR. DOLAN: During the time period 1979 through 1981, did you ever see Sterling interact with Walter?
ELISABETH WATERS: Could you be more specific? What do you mean by “interact”?
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see them touch?
ELISABETH WATERS: No.
MR. DOLAN: Did you ever see them in the hot tub together?
ELISABETH WATERS: I don’t remember. A lot of people went in the hot tub. We usually all went in as a group.
MR. DOLAN: Do you ever remember seeing Walter naked in the hot tub with any young boys at any time?
ELISABETH WATERS: Well, I think I remember seeing Walter naked in the hot tub with Anodea and Philip and Alex, and Alex was an infant.
MR. DOLAN: Any other young children that you saw Walter naked in the hot tub with?
ELISABETH WATERS: Walter always went in the hot tub naked, and sometimes Patrick and Moira and Ian and Fiona and the adults from Greyhaven and Marion and I would all be there.
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