The Final Move Beyond Iraq: The Final Solution While the World Sleeps
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MDE:
Talk to us about Iran’s nuclear program.
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
No doubt today there is not any dispute in the Western intelligence community that Iran is determined to acquire military nuclear capability. This is not just a civilian project. We have information in the last decade that there is a clandestine Iranian military nuclear project. They will try to overcome the problems in the enrichment process, but they’re on their way to overcoming it—they’re on their way to acquiring it. And according to the experts, it’s a question of a couple of months—I’m not sure how many months—to reach what they need to have—[that is] the indigenous know-how to be able to enrich the materials and to be able to produce a bomb. Then they will have a couple of years to build—to actually produce—the bomb, but no doubt they are determined to acquire the military nuclear capability. What we [have] faced in the last couple of years—especially since 2004 when the IAEA exposed their clandestine project—[is Iran] trying to gain time in order to go ahead with the process. Unfortunately, they feel like they are succeeding to manipulate—to deceive—the West and to go on with the project.
MDE:
How big is their project, and are the Russians involved?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
You know, I was the head of the intelligence of the Israeli Defense Force in the years ’95–’98, and actually I personally met Russian officials and introduced them to the information that we had about Russian experts involved in the missiles project—and of course a nuclear project at that time. Russian administration at the time denied it, but we had evidence of Russian involvement at the time. So no doubt when we are talking about the missile project it was even before the Shahab-6, which is already operational today. We had all evidence about Russian involvement in this project.
MDE:
How many sites are we talking about?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
This is not one site like it was in Iraq. We are talking about dozens of facilities dealing with this project.
MDE:
And what is the difference between their sites now and the Iraq site?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
In the Iraqi case, it was one reactor, Osirak, that was destroyed by the Israeli air strike in 1981. Today the Iranian regime has learned a lesson from the Iraqi case and they have many facilities—[they] know it’s a challenge for intelligence, but we can cope with it.
MDE:
Are they built underground?
MDE:
What kind of threats has the president of Iran made against the state of Israel?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
President Ahmadinejad declared that Israel should be wiped off the map. He referred to it at a conference with the title “The World Without Zionism.” They had another conference about “The World Without America.” So they see Israel as a spearhead of Western culture—Western civilization—and believe that on the way to defeat the West, Israel should be defeated, and this is the reason that he supports all the terror organizations that operate against the State of Israel—like the Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Hamas, Fata activists—on an individual basis. He believes that this is a step on the way to defeating the West. In this stage, Israel should be wiped off the map—and he really believes in it—and he believes that he’s able to implement it.
Unfortunately, he’s encouraged from our decisions like the fighting in Lebanon and in the Gaza Strip. We did it especially because of Israeli internal considerations. It was perceived—and is still perceived—by the Iranian regime as weakness—and he is encouraged by Israel like he is encouraged by the U.S. difficulties of the coalition—the difficulties in Iraq. Of course he’s accountable for it as well because he does his best not to allow any political stability in Iraq behind the scene, and he provides the know-how—the terror know-how—he provides it to the insurgencies like the IEDs, improvised explosive devices, Iranian-made. And of course he does his best to undermine those moderate regimes who are linked to the West, like in Jordan, in Egypt, in Persian Gulf states, and unfortunately, he feels like he’s winning because he doesn’t face any determination from the West and he goes on with his policy using the proxies and acquiring the military nuclear capability for his benefit.
MDE:
You’re saying that many of our troops that are blown up are actually blown up by military devices that are coming from Iran?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
No doubt about it. The coalition troops—the Americans, the Brits, the Italians—who are blown up today in Iraq are blown up by Iranian-made improvised explosive devices. We faced the same devices in Lebanon used by the Hezbollah—Iranian-made devices—the same. We intercepted these kind of devices on the Karine-A—the ship that came from Iran—and we intercepted [it in the Red Sea] trying to smuggle these kind of devices to the Palestinian terrorists—so no doubt this is Iranian-made.
MDE:
When Iran uses the term “The Great Satan” referring to America, what do they mean?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Israel is perceived by this regime as a small Satan. The Great Satan is America—and actually the Iranian regime is challenging the United States as the leader of the Western culture. Israel is a marginal issue on the way to defeating the United States. Today the Iranian regime is concentrating on dealing with the American interest in the region—like in Iraq, in the Persian Gulf state, and in Israel. [They see America] as a spearhead of Western culture and religion. But the strategic goal is to defeat the United States—to defeat the Western culture—to defeat the Western values—and to impose the new caliphate and the Nation of Islam.
In the end, I believe that if they are successful in the Middle East, they will approach Europe, and of course the United States—and actually the Iranian regime has the terror infrastructure even today—a sleeping terror infrastructure everywhere. Like they did it in Argentina in ’92 and ’94 against the Jewish communities, like they did it in Europe against their opponents in Germany, and elsewhere—in Asher. Everywhere they have the sleeping terror infrastructure to be used on the day to come.
MDE:
If Iran gave the nod for those with the infrastructure to harm us that are living within our country, what are they capable of doing?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
You can look to what happened in Germany toward assassinations, and you can look back to what happened in Argentina, which was blowing up huge buildings—the Israeli embassy and the Jewish community center—so they have the capability to send a truck loaded with explosives to blow any building in the United States or anywhere in the world.
MDE:
Israel has dealt with—in the last six years—over twenty thousand attempted suicide attacks. Obviously it has worked for them to achieve their objectives with Israel. Crime has paid for them in many ways, from their perspective. Is there any possibility that they could try that in the United States?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Why not? Using homicide bombers—I don’t call them suicide bombers but homicide bombers—it becomes very effective from their perspective. From their perception, it becomes very effective. They believe that Israel retreated from Lebanon because of these kinds of terror attacks. Talking about the radical Islamists, they believe—all of them—Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, and the Iranian regime—they believe that they defeated Russia as a superpower—why [would they not believe they are] able to defeat the second superpower, or the first one—the United States—by using their determination or their will?
Not all of the West has the power, but actually I’m not sure that the West has an understanding, the awareness, the will, and the determination, and [Islamofascists] have the will and the determination and believe that they will win by their advantage of will and determination and that we just have to listen to them—to Osama bin Laden, to Ahmadinejad, to Khaled Mashaal [leader of Hamas]—and of course to the main generator today for any terror activities all over the world:
the Iranian regime.
MDE:
When you said that they believed they defeated the Russian Soviet Union, were you referring to the Afghan war?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Yes, of course. The radical Islamists today, they feel like they are winning. They feel like they are winning although they do not have the power—but they believe they have the will and the determination.
Why do they feel that they are winning? First of all, they believe [that if] they defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, then [they] will be able to defeat the United States. Secondly, they believe the Hezbollah defeated Israel in Lebanon. It was a victory for terror, according to their perception. They believe that they changed the Spanish policy because of the devastating attack in Madrid in 2004. They believe that Israelis withdrew from Gaza because of the Hamas terror attacks, and of course they are encouraged from the Hamas political victory in the [Palestinian] elections.
They’re encouraged by the Muslim Brotherhood gaining power in Egypt. They’re encouraged today from what’s happening in Mogadishu in Somalia, and of course they’re encouraged from the coalition troops’ difficulties in Iraq, and from the political difficulties here in Washington for the president—for the administration. So they feel like they are winning and they are very self-confident today that they are on the way to defeating the West.
MDE:
How important is the support of Americans who have moral clarity in this battle?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
In order to win this kind of war, we need the awareness of westerners. Then we need moral clarity, and then a clear strategy. We sleep. We in the West are sleeping, and we need a wake-up call to understand this threat is imminent. It’s not a theoretical threat, and as long as [Islamofascists] feel like they are winning—as long as they do not witness Western determination to deal with this politically, economically and militarily, they will go on with it. They will use, first of all, the proxies against Western targets anywhere—not just Israel, but Western moderate regimes in the Middle East—and they will go on with it from the Middle East to Europe to the United States.
MDE:
If nothing is done, if the world continues to sleep—if the West continues to sleep—and we wake up a decade from now and nothing has been done, can you describe what America could be like in comparison to your nation when you were chief of staff as it relates to terrorism and the threat—what it could be like in the streets of America?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
It will be more difficult to any administration or government in the West to deal with nuclear Iran because of the nuclear umbrella. Cane said recently that the only worse option—rather than exercising the military option regarding the military nuclear project in Iran—is to have a nuclear Iran. I agree with him because to have a nuclear Iran with this kind of nonconventional regime—with these nonconventional capabilities—this is not even rational. We’re not talking about a Soviet Union–type of leadership. They were rational. This regime is not rational. They have a strong religious belief—and they are driving this strong religious belief to defeat the West.
So first of all, they will use terror like we faced in Lebanon from the Palestinian Authority. They will oppose other countries by undermining them, blackmailing them, by terror activities—a combination of terror activities under a nuclear umbrella—and they will approach Europe and the United States with the use of proxies—not to use missiles, [they will] use proxies—and they have many proxies: Hezbollah, Palestinian terror organizations, and of course [those] run by the Iranian intelligence who were responsible for the devastating attacks in Argentina—special Iranian intelligence used covertly to launch terror attacks against Western targets. So it might come to the United States as well.
MDE:
What part did Iran play in 9/11?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Al Qaeda elements used Iran as a safe haven. [We] can’t say that the Iranian regime was involved directly or in any other way with 9/11, but no doubt Al Qaeda elements used Iran for a certain period of time as a safe haven.
MDE:
I’d like to be able to describe to the American people a visual thing. What visually would they be seeing and hearing if homicide bombers began this strategy in the United States? What would it be like? What would be the particulars?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
There is a sleeping infrastructure—terror infrastructure—today all over the world like we have not seen—not simply in Canada—and this is the case everywhere because we are talking about ideology, which is spread by many radical Islamists. In many cases it’s the Iranian regime talking with Shia elements, and in other cases the Al Qaeda organization—which is an umbrella—an ideology to encourage radical Islamists. I’m not talking about all Muslims. I’m talking about radical Islamists who become terrorists and are ready to sacrifice their lives by becoming homicide bombers, killing infidels, as they call us—Christians, Jews, Buddhists, whatever other than Muslims are infidels—to kill them, and in this way to convince them to be converted to Islam. All over the world there are radical Islamists who are ready to be become homicide bombers. It might be Osama bin Laden or others. They are ready, so if the Iranian regime decided to implement it here in the United States, they will have the capabilities to do it.
MDE:
Explain what it would be like practically if it happened in New York or DC.
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
I think, practically, today in Israel we assume that any minute a homicide bomber might try to approach any public facility, so we have a guard in the entrance of any public facility, which is any mall, any restaurant, any café, any public transportation to defend the civilians from homicide bombers. So it might happen even here.
MDE:
But the American people have never really experienced that type of terror. I know that when they do this, sometimes they work in pairs of twos. They strategically plan it. Describe for us what it would be like if it actually happened here in Washington DC or New York. What would it be like?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Of course people will not feel secure because of the idea of being blown up in a public facility—in the Metro, or in the restaurant, or in the concert hall, or in the theater, or anywhere—to lose your personal feeling of security on a daily basis and to be aware of any suspicious movement—not to trust anyone who goes with a suitcase or with any other bag—which might be an explosive bag—it changes the whole way of life when you face it.
MDE:
You mentioned that this president had the audacity to write a letter to try to convert the president of the United States. If you would attempt to convert the president of the United States, obviously he would certainly want to attempt to convert the American people.
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Oh, of course.
MDE:
Could you talk about that for a minute? Start with the letter.
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Actually, President Ahmadinejad recommended that the president of the United States be converted to Islam. Of course, this recommendation is for all the American people to be [converted] to avoid the conflict—to avoid the war that he declares on the West. Actually, he declares war against Western culture, and yes, he recommends—like any other radical Islamist today, like Osama bin Laden and Khaled Mashaal, who also talks about not supporting Israel and adopting Islam, otherwise you will be full of remorse, you will regret it in the end. Yes, this is the proposal: to be converted.
MDE:
The American people have a tendency to think this is just one person who believes this.
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Actually, in Iran we should distinguish between the Iranian regime and the Iranian people, but when we are talking about the regime we should talk about the ayatollahs, the conservatives—the conservatives who do not allow any reforms and are trying to manage Iran using the Islamic law—who do not allow democracy or democratic values. So we should distinguis
h between the regime and the people. I believe that most of the Iranian people do not like the ayatollahs—but the problem is not with one man. The problem is with the system—with this ideology of the ayatollahs.
MDE:
How many are we approximately talking about, and how long has this ideology been fed to them?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
We are talking about the Iranian revolution that emerged in 1979 quite successfully in Iran. Although they are not able as a regime to convince all the Iranians to believe in this ideology, they have succeeded in running the country successfully, and actually they succeeded in strengthening their grip in governing—building the intelligence, intimidation, discrimination, pressure against the people—and they are quite successful in their way. So we have to talk about the Iranian regime, not just the Iranian people, like we have to talk about the radical Islamists—not all the Muslims—and the Iranian regime is radical Islamist regime.
MDE:
Most people think of nuclear bombs as missiles, fired through missiles—but could there be a period of time where a nuclear bomb could be put in a cargo container or even brought across a border?
Lt.Gen.Ya’alon:
Actually, the bomb, according to my understanding, might be used by the Iranian regime as an umbrella, then by proxies—not by the regime itself, which means by aircraft or by missile—by proxies—the dirty bomb to be used by terror organizations as proxies. This is the best way to deny accountability and this is the way this regime is thinking about how to gain the benefits of these kinds of activities—like terror activities—and not to be considered accountable. That’s what they are doing now in Iraq, in Lebanon, in the Palestinian Authority, and all over the Middle East against moderate regimes—denying accountability but no doubt generating, financing, equipping, supporting, and encouraging these kinds of proxies. So the idea of using proxies is the most probable scenario, even when it comes to nuclear capability.