Wong Kar-wai

by Silver Wai-ming Lee

  WKW: Yes.

  DP: In terms of how you work, people see you as a mysterious figure in some ways because your films are so beautiful and intimate.

  WKW: Why? [Because my films are] hard to understand?

  DP: Well, sometimes hard to understand, but sometimes not as accessible to a general audience as they are to people who are really focused on the work. There is a degree of passion among the people who are very interested [in your films] as you saw last night at the academy. People went crazy when you walked in the room. At the same time in terms of the Average Joe who goes to the multiplex, he can’t even figure out where to start. I guess you are conscious of this because you are saying that. Are you aware of how it presents. Do you want a broader audience? Do you want to make it more accessible, or does it even matter because the work is just what you’re doing? Your focus is on your work.

  WKW: Well, just look at a film like The Grandmaster—we released a film in China in January, and the film has been showing all around the world. So we have a huge audience from different backgrounds, from different cultures, and this film speaks to this audience.

  DP: Do you like that? Do you see it as an entryway to a 2046 or Chungking Express? Or do you hope it is?

  WKW: Just imagine, I’m not a painter and to make films you need an audience. You need to speak to an audience. Otherwise, what’s the point of making a film? Of course we are very happy to communicate with the audience, but that doesn’t mean you have to do something to find an easy way out. I think we want to have our own language but will appreciate having more people understand this film.

  DP: So in terms of this film, last night you talked particularly about the sequence of the train track at the train station, with Zhang Ziyi and the other actor’s name whose name I don’t know offhand.

  WKW: You have to find it out. Don’t be lazy.

  DP: I will look it up in a second, but it’s a remarkable sequence. You did mention that it took two months to shoot it. So the sequence is five minutes, six minutes, seven minutes long?

  WKW: Eleven.

  DP: Eleven minutes long. But two months is a long time to shoot, and it’s very intimate. I mean, it’s beautiful. It’s not like any other kung fu you’d see anywhere else because it’s so much about the moment: the facial expressions, the movement of the hands, and all the different little pieces. Did you know what that sequence would look like, or roughly, what it might look like when you started?

  WKW: Are you kidding?

  DP: Or were you finding the pieces to put them together?

  WKW: Of course.

  DP: You had it all in your head?

  WKW: You can make that scene in three hours or three days. With all these doubles and flying wire, you can do it in three days. The thing is, once you have seen the actual demonstrations, you want to give to the audience exactly the same feeling—to understand the skill, the movement. I think you need to spend that much time.

  DP: So how do you do it technically? Did you use multi camera, or was it single camera?

  WKW: Single camera. How can you do these shots with multi camera? It doesn’t work that way.

  DP: Maybe you have a trick to do it.

  WKW: No, I don’t have that trick.

  DP: So when you wanted to get the arms moving in a certain direction, are they going through the whole sequence of the fight to get that moment?

  WKW: First of all we have sessions called choreographing, so we do all the choreography beforehand. Then we have to set up. We have a setup for this part of the movement; we want to capture this movement. But before the setup we have to choreograph the whole movement on scene. As you can imagine, shooting on a train station like that is extremely difficult because it was sometimes, like, minus thirty degrees Celsius at night. You can only do a few set ups.

  DP: So that seemed like the only way to do it? Is it the only way it can be done?

  WKW: No, no. Only for me, it is the only way to do it this way—to be true and to be authentic.

  DP: Are you looking to capture a specific beat or a moment or an image, and then you shoot until you get that and move on to the next image?

  WKW: No, when you’re shooting action, it’s highly technical because it’s not like just one take will get you the shot. Because there is a lot of coordinating, you have to have the action, timing, and angle, and the camera movement. Everything has to be coordinated, and it takes time.

  DP: You’re also well known for your postproduction. You know what is in your head when you’re shooting. So what is post-production like for you in a situation like that? Is it refinement? Is it changing your mind about what you wanted? Or are you just trying to create the thing you had in your head?

  WKW: They’re options. Postproduction means there are so many options in front of you. There are so many ways to tell the stories, so you’re trying to find the best way. When you are shooting a film you want to see more, but when you are doing postproduction you are aware that there is a running time. Some people say, “Well, I don’t care. I want to make this film three hours long, and it should be three hours long.” But sometimes you have some restrictions about running time, so you have to find the most efficient way to tell the story within a certain running time. For instance, in China the film is two hours and ten minutes, and in Europe it’s two hours and five minutes. Here it is one hour and fifty minutes. You have different requirements or different restrictions for different markets. You can’t simply just make it shorter. You have to tell the story in a certain way. It’s the same film, but in a way it’s a bit different.

  DP: So it’s not really tweaking the scenes as much as finding the energy of the whole thing, coming together at the right amount of time to fit?

  WKW: You have to tell the story in the most efficient way and at the same time in a way that you feel is the most satisfying.

  DP: Is there a preference for you between the 2:10 and the 2:58 and whatever the American length is?

  WKW: It’s the same film for me.

  DP: It’s the same film?

  WKW: Right.

  DP: So we shouldn’t go running out to try to find the longer version?

  WKW: First, you have to watch this version.

  DP: What is your relationship [with this film] after the movie is done? Obviously you are doing press and having conversations about the movie, but are you emotionally ready to move on to the next thing? Are you still lingering in the experience that you had and thinking about how it’s going to affect you?

  WKW: I think I’m still in 1936, and it will take a while to leave. Then you can move on to something else.

  DP: Do you look back at your work much?

  WKW: No.

  DP: Once you’re done, you’re done?

  WKW: Just imagine. I’ve seen this film so many times.

  DP: But if you see a film from ten years ago show up on television or something…

  WKW: I’d enjoy it.

  DP: You’ll watch it?

  WKW: Yeah, yeah, but the thing is accidental. You are not intentionally trying to get a DVD, to get the film. It’s like you just came across an old friend you haven’t seen for a long time. When you look at the film you are not actually looking at the film. You have all these memories of how this scene got made, and it’s a different experience.

  DP: Do you see a younger you when you watch your old work? Do you see a younger man who worked on those films? Do you see your own evolution?

  WKW: No, I don’t see myself. I see the people working with me, and the moment when we made that scene.

  DP: Can you imagine ever not making films?

  WKW: Sure.

  DP: Just one day you might decide to go off and paint, or do something else?

  WKW: Yes, of course. I always have a dream like that. When I don’t have to work, I will just be reading, eating, and having a different life.

  DP: So in some ways it’s still work. You are clearly an artist, but there is still an element of it that is work for you. />
  WKW: No, it’s the passion. It’s the curiosity.

  DP: As long as you have that passion, you’ll keep shooting?

  WKW: Yes, we all do, I think.

  DP: For some people, I mean, it’s career, and it sounds like you aren’t interested in a career as such.

  WKW: I think of a different definition, right.

  NOTES

  1. Comic Con is a comic convention that takes place in multiple US cities. It aims to bring fans to the creators through sale booths, talks, and screenings. The convention is known for passionate fans dressing up in their favorite characters. The event attracts a lot of media attention because of the colorful crowds.

  2. Chopsocky kung fu film is a derogatory term used to describe cheaply-made Chinese films that have loose storylines, compromised acting, and lots of action. It is drawn from the term chop suey—an Americanized Chinese dish that mixes different ingredients together. Many Western audiences first learn of Hong Kong cinema from chopsocky films.

  3. Hong Kong New Wave started in the late 1970s when film directors started seeing themselves as auteurs and their films have their signature styles. Wong Kar-wai is one of the latecomers to the scene. Some of them are working in the mainstream (such as Tsui Hark and John Woo), and others remain in art house cinema (such as Ann Hui and Stanley Kwan). See introduction for a detailed explanation.

  4. Since In the Mood for Love, Wong Kar-wai’s films have been financed by Hong Kong, Chinese, and French production houses.

  Interview: Wong Kar-wai

  Jake Mulligan / 2013

  From Slant Magazine (US). http://www.slantmagazine.com/features/article/interview-wong-kar-wai. Interview conducted in English. Reprinted by permission of the publisher. The interview collected in this volume is the entire conversation. The magazine version is abbreviated.

  Jake Mulligan: In The Grandmaster, as in your other films, much is made of reflecting on the past. How much of what you film is dictated by your own memories and personal experiences? And how does that affect something like The Grandmaster, set in a time before you were born?

  Wong Kar-Wai: It’s actually not really about memories; it’s about curiosities. I think for The Grandmaster, it’s about a time I only ever heard of and never actually went through. Most of my films are about Hong Kong in the ’60s—the immigrants, the Second Generation [of immigrants]. And this film is a bit more … I wanted to know where they came from. We went to the early days of the Republic of China,1 and for me, it’s like a new territory. It’s not going back. It’s a discovery. When you look at the film, you see that a lot of people end up in Hong Kong for different reasons. That is how Hong Kong has become [what it is] today.

  JM: Much as the time period has shifted. I personally feel there has been a shift in your past four pictures away from the type of photography you were composing in your earlier works. Do you feel that your aesthetic preferences have changed at all? Do you consider your previous pictures while making a film?

  WKW: I never want to make beautiful pictures. I just want to make sure it’s right. Every set up, every shot represents a choice: what you want to see and what you don’t want to see. If you want to see precisely this button [referencing the button that Ip Man gave to Gong Er as a love token in Grandmaster],2 then you have to look at this button. It’s not just a button, it’s a history, right? If you are going to show a punch, how can you show a punch is very powerful? I remember when we shot the scene in the train station, they said that the first punch was too strong [since] it breaks the nails coming out of the pillars. They asked, “If we want to be authentic, is it too over the top?” I said, “We’ll see.” I think it’s good enough to tell you that his [Ma San played by Zhang Jin] punch is very, very strong.

  JM: So you’re telling me you’ve never once composed a shot with the conscious intention of creating something beautiful?

  WKW: No. (Thinks) No. I’m not going to frame a beautiful shot [for the sake of beauty].

  JM: Yuen Woo-ping is credited as the fight choreographer of the film. He’s created a distinctive signature for himself through his work. How do you two work together, and does his work influence the rest of the film, like the dialogue scenes, at all?

  WKW: The way I work with Yuen Woo-ping is very straightforward. At the beginning of our meeting, I told him that I wanted this to be a hardcore kung fu film. It has to be authentic. I don’t want wires. I don’t want tricks, and I want my actors to perform their kung fu, like in the early days—like in the Shaw Brothers films. So he was quite shocked, actually. I brought him to the training rooms with Tony [Leung], and he realized that I was serious about it. Because [Yuen’s] from that background, he knows this world very well. Together we created action scenes that were choreographed with the trainers. If Tony is [playing] a Wing Chun master,3 then all his moves should be Wing Chun moves.

  JM: So I assume you mean you dislike the wires and overuse of CGI effects.

  WKW: In the last ten years, a lot of kung fu films have become over the top. And at a point, audiences start to think, “Kung fu films are just a show, or a gimmick … the Chinese martial arts—does it [actually] work?” But you look at the popularity of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) today, [you see that they do work.] The Chinese martial arts, especially Wing Chun, they are the beginning of MMA.

  JM: Then is this film intended as a corrective to the genre as it stands now?

  WKW: No, I think [the film] opens a window. It’s more like a question than an answer, “Do you really know what Chinese martial arts is? Are you interested? Do you want to learn more?”

  JM: There’s a lot in the film about different styles, about mastering different techniques, about fostering a command of many different styles. Hong Kong cinema has always been defined by a collection of different genres and styles. Is that something that attracted you? Did you think about that parallel while making the film?

  WKW: Because of the Chinese market, most of the Hong Kong filmmakers work in China, through co-productions. So at a point, people said, “Well, where is Hong Kong cinema?” But in fact, the Hong Kong cinema has gone through a different stage. It [now] has a bigger playground. But in a way you also have to keep the essence, the spirit, of Hong Kong cinema.

  When we were shooting this film, we were conscious to do a homage because kung fu film is a big genre. So in a way, you can see in the first thirty minutes, when Tony is doing the three challenges in the brothel, it’s basically an homage to Lau Kar-leung films,4 the Shaw Brothers, and the Tsui Hark period. We are trying to get everything in. It’s not just one kung fu film. It’s like, Once Upon a Time …

  JM: So the music cue you borrow from Once Upon a Time in America,5 that’s not just because you liked the music, then? There’s a thematic connection between that film and The Grandmaster?

  WKW: Oh, it’s an homage. We had these discussions, like two days ago, with a very good writer who wrote many big films. The interesting thing he said was, “It used to be that film was about stories. Today, film is about short stories.” And I think the reason I wanted to pay homage to Once Upon a Time in America, to Sergio Leone, to Morricone, is because people don’t make films like that anymore—people don’t have the patience for epics. Epics are really about time. It’s a journey and not just action.

  JM: There’s a lot of footage out there for this film. I’ve seen two different cuts of the picture, and there was plenty of footage exclusive to each. If it weren’t for that lack of patience among audiences, would you like to release a version that comprises most of the footage—a version of The Grandmaster that would be as long as most Leone movies? Or are the running times dictated by other things?

  WKW: Yeah, sadly, today, the distribution of films is very competitive, so in China we can [only] afford to release this film in two hours and ten minutes, [and] we have an obligation to release this film under two hours in the United States. But I don’t want to just do a shorter version—do some trimming, take out some scenes—because I think the structure o
f the Chinese version is very delicate and very precise. Instead I want to do a new version. I want to tell this story in a different way.

  And, in fact, American cinema, besides Chinese cinema, has the longest history of kung fu films. So I think [in the American edition of The Grandmaster] we can focus and go directly to the story. In the Chinese version, it’s really about time. And here it’s really about the characters. We follow the story of Ip Man and go through this world of martial arts.

  JM: You’ve been quoted in the past saying that your editing process is so arduous because you love your movies too much and don’t want to let them go. So the multiple edits, the way you’ve gone through and re-edited different cuts of your movies from the ground up—for you, is that as much about finding a way to release as much footage as possible as it is about creating the perfect final product for separate markets?

  WKW: You have to imagine, when you’re shooting a scene and you really love that scene, it’s a lot of work. It’s not only the work of the director, it’s the actors, writers, the whole crew. And sometimes that footage that doesn’t go into the final edit, it will wake you up. [Those scenes] will call you. So you want to think, “Is there any way I can put this back, and tell the audience [the story] in a different way?” Just imagine if they said to you, “Well, you only have five minutes for this interview.” Then you have to make choices, right?

  NOTES

  1. The Republic of China (1912–1949) is the period after the Qing Dynasty collapsed and before Mao established Communist China.

  2. The button is a token of love between Ip Man and Gong Er. Ip Man keeps the button from the winter jacket to show her that he had intended to visit Gong in the Northeast but the Japanese invaded southern China, so the trip was not made. When Gong Er passed away, she returned the button to Ip Man.

  3. The school of kung fu that Ip Man practiced.

  4. Lau Kar-leung (1934–2013) was a choreographer and film director of many kung fu and wuxia films such as 36th Chamber of Shaolin (1978) and Drunken Master II (1994).

  5. Once Upon a Time in America (1984) is a drama film directed by Sergio Leone and scored by Ennio Morricone.