The Michael Jackson Tapes

by Shmuley Boteach

  MJ: I just, I love, I do love the power of mystery, I really do. I think it’s very powerful.

  SB: Is it spiritual? What is it?

  MJ: It’s spiritual, it’s, it’s people conjure up all these ideas, people create it themselves. They conjure up all these ideas in their head about what’s going on. I mean they used to say, you know, Howard Hughes is up there and he owns the hotel but he stays on that floor, he doesn’t come down. He’s in the dark, he’s in the corner in the bed with long nails and hair down to here and he’s hooked to an IV. So the brain would just go crazy conjuring up all kinds of crazy stories, and I love that. I love Howard Hughes ’cause he played this big thing. I mean, to me he’s like one of my masters. But, I don’t know, this is the first time I’ve ever said this Shmuley, I love Howard, he’s a genius.

  SB: Because what? Because he knew the power of mystery?

  MJ: How to play people, yeah. He knew how to make the public interested. P. T. Barnum was pretty good at it himself.

  SB: Is it a matter of just withdrawing? Is it that simple? For example, this book came along called The Rules, and I debated the people who wrote it twice. And they said the way you get a guy to marry you is by playing hard to get. He calls you up and you say, “Sorry, I’d love to go out to dinner but I’m too busy.” He leaves messages on your answering machine and you never return his phone calls. You hear of the book? It’s a very controversial book. Is it that simple?

  I am actually a critic of The Rules, believing that manipulation is the worst approach to relationships and that there is a far better alternative, namely, for a woman to indulge her natural feminine mystique.

  MJ: I don’t, I don’t totally agree. It depends on the individual.

  SB: But with you, when you say it’s become about playing the public, is it as simple as withdrawal and they want more? And more ways how to reveal yourself?

  MJ: It’s rhythm and timing. You have to know what you’re doing. Like you never see me on award shows saying, “The nominees are . . .” And I get asked to do every show. Now they don’t even ask. They know I don’t do it. Or to host the show or to come out and say like, “Coming up next, Michael Jackson to present the record of the year.” You never see me coming out and doing the nominees. I don’t do it. They know not to even ask me. It’s not what I do.

  SB: You will never do something which makes you be the means to another end. You’re either the end or you’re not. It’s either about you or you’re not going to be the road.

  MJ: Yeah, and I’m not trying to say that I’m holy or God or. . . SB: But you’re not going to belittle yourself either.

  MJ: I’m not going to, I want. . . you know? People should respect, you know? Ability and talent, and it’s all for the sake of goodness, really ’cause my message is for goodness.

  SB: I agree with you.

  MJ: But really. I’m just trying to conserve and preserve. . .

  SB: This, by the way, is a whole book unto itself, how you have learned the power of the hidden, of the mysterious. Look out there in New York. Right now as we speak there are hundreds of thousands of woman who want to get married and guys won’t commit to them. And do you know one of the main reasons is because they’ll have sex with them anyway.

  Years later I authored a book called The Kosher Sutra, which outlined all the erotic principles of attraction, with mystery, forbiddenness, and sinfulness being at the forefront. The book became a best-seller.

  MJ: Uh huh.

  SB: Why would you marry her if you could have her without the commitment? If you wanted to borrow ten million dollars from the bank manager, and he says, “Here Michael, here’s ten million dollars,” would you then say, “Oh, by the way, you forgot to ask me for collateral. Here it is”? You wouldn’t volunteer it. So, you understand what I’m saying? And they might never get married and these women come in their hundreds to me, crying, writing about how lonely they are. They don’t know the power of mystery. They go to bed on the first date; they don’t know how to hold back. He never has to win them over. And by the way, that’s what happened to Madonna. Madonna overexposed herself. She’s still a celebrity but she’s not what she was.

  MJ: Yeah, I know.

  SB: She didn’t even overexpose herself, Michael, through TV and music. It wasn’t that she gave too many interviews. Rather, she overexposed her body. She was a sex symbol. People wanted to know what her body looked like, and she did that stupid, sleazy, disgusting book, and all you had to do was buy the book. The mystery was permanently gone.

  MJ: I know, I know. Exactly right.

  SB: There are few people today who understand the power of mystery. You understand it because there is an intuitive spirituality to your nature that is a real gift. Because this understanding of mystery, and your understanding of the power of timing, helps us understand the holy. God only reveals very sporadically and at very choice moments. Mystery and timing are central to revelation. MJ: I love that. That’s one of my favorite things to think about too. SB: How hidden God is.

  MJ: How hidden.

  SB: You’ve got to find him.

  MJ: You see all his miracles through him but you don’t see his face, himself, you know? You see through the children.

  SB: Which makes you more interested in him?

  MJ: Yeah.

  SB: You want to find him?

  MJ: Makes you want to seek him out and find him. Absolutely. I love that. And some people just throw up their hands and go, “What is this all about, this whole universe and where is he? I want to talk to him and what is it?” You know I love that. He’s the ultimate. He is. He’s the man.

  SB: So this is how we stop people from being bored. First of all one more thing before we move on to boredom. So you instinctively knew timing, mystery? You just knew?

  MJ: Yeah, it’s true, Shmuley.

  SB: It’s not like a manager pulled you aside and said, “Michael. You can be a big star. Don’t overdo it”?

  MJ: No. No way.

  SB: Did your brothers not understand it?

  MJ: No, they don’t understand it. They would jump on anything, any second. If anybody said, “I want to interview you tomorrow about Michael’s new style of dress, “Sure.” ’Cause they just want to be on TV, to be on TV. I think people appreciate you much more when you, you know conserve, just hold. . . you know.

  SB: Hold back?

  MJ: Hold back and build yourself and give yourself a certain kind of class and make them reach out for you and just. . . I love gates, gates to a house. I love huge big pillars and gates. You don’t know what’s back there beyond the road. You just see these. . . You know, you go, “God who lives in there?” I love that. You know, you never see them but you see the gates and I love that.

  SB: But the gates to Neverland are so simple?

  MJ: So simple, that’s how I wanted them. Because I don’t want the gate to represent, you know, it’s an act of almost psychology. I was gonna make them so, kind of, almost. . . what’s the word? Umm, I can’t think of the word I’m looking for. I was gonna have people swing them open and really kind of have them funky and tattered, just so psychologically you really feel like you’re coming to a ranch, so that when you go around the bend I want it to change to Technicolor, like the Wizard of Oz does in black and white. SB: That’s exactly what happened with us. First thing we said when we got to Neverland was, ‘This can’t be his ranch, what are those simple doors?’ Then you drive through and you see the sign, “Welcome to Neverland” and then, kaboom.

  MJ: Yeah.

  SB: It just hits you.

  MJ: That, see, that’s important to understand in show business. If you open with too much of a bang, where do you go from there? You crescendo too big, you have nowhere to go. You can’t do that. That’s why I always say, in amusement parks, the guy who creates the roller coaster, the dips, you’re going up at first, way up and you go, “Oh my God, why did I do this?” Then it takes you straight down and it takes you up a little bit, then down, and h
e’s the real showman, the guy who creates the dips. You know the peaks and the valleys, then he takes you straight real fast and up and upside down. He’s a showman. That guy’s a real showman because he understands syncopation and rhythm and structure and that’s important. That’s real important as an artist of show business and most of your artists today know nothing about it.

  SB: They all overexpose themselves.

  MJ: At all. At all.

  SB: Is that your professional greatest blessing, that you were born with that rhythm? You just had that natural timing and you understood it?

  MJ: Yeah, yeah. I think

  SB: Is it part of your love for God and his hiddeness and all that, that it’s all one, that you sort of tapped into that divine mystery and you know the power of mystery?

  MJ: Yeah, I think, yeah, like you say, it’s just something. . . like the way you speak. That’s the power of God in you Shmuley. You do, I’ve never heard anybody speak like you, it’s amazing. It’s like God is working right through you. I mean it’s like that, when I’m on stage it’s the same way. I don’t think about what I’m gonna do, I don’t know what I’m gonna do.

  SB: You just get into the zone, the timing.

  MJ: You get into it, man. You become one with what God gave you. It’s like talking, it’s spiritual. It’s between you and God and the audience is right there with you. How do you describe it, I mean, how do you dissect it, how do you analyze it? You really can’t. People say how do you do it? “Well I work out and I train.” Well, you don’t.

  Advice on Fame

  Shmuley Boteach: So yesterday, ’N Sync came to see you. The lead singer Justin Timberlake, and I don’t know who the other guy was. What’s his name?

  Michael had invited me to his hotel suite to meet Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake, who had flown in to see him the day after they had jointly hosted the American Music Awards. I was, at that time, not at all enamored of Britney Spears for her sexualization of teenage girls in America. Still, I behaved myself and spoke to them briefly about our efforts to get parents to prioritize their children. Neither of them seemed particularly interested and we didn’t really click. Justin said something about contacting his manager or agent. They were there to meet the superstar. I don’t mean to be insulting, but I found them unimpressive and forgettable. With all of Michael’s myriad flaws, he had infinitely more class. Michael Jackson at least knew how to treat people with dignity and make them feel important, something for which the new generation of stars could use some tutoring.

  Michael Jackson: Wade is a choreographer for. . .

  SB: Oh, he wasn’t from ’N Sync, Wade?

  MJ: No, he’s a choreographer for Britney Spears and ’N Sync. See I taught Wade.

  SB: Really?

  MJ: Yeah, I taught Wade. All the stuff you see Britney Spears and ’N Sync doing, that whole style came from me ’cause I taught Wade. Wade’s from Australia and I brought him to America.

  SB: So he’s their choreographer?

  MJ: Yeah, and he does music. He was on my record label. We signed him to MJJ. He raps, he does everything.

  SB: So he was here with Britney Spears, one of the biggest stars in the world right now, and that lead singer of ’N Sync, and they’re boyfriend and girlfriend. When you look at them, and you had a long conversation with them, what would you tell them, based on this idea we’re trying to speak about in this book, childlike qualities? Would you warn them against anything that might happen in their careers? Would you tell them, “You know, when I was your age I thought X, Y, and Z and now I’ve changed my view”? Is there any advice you would give them?

  MJ: Just try to stay a child as long as you can. Don’t force into adulthood. Don’t force it, don’t push it. Don’t try to be cool and. . . go to Disney, hang out, enjoy your youth, ’cause you’ll be old for, I mean you know, just keep your innocence. Have some fun and really be yourself.

  This advice from Michael was sorely disappointing. I see Britney Spears, in particular, as a woman in serious need of guidance and counseling. It took Michael several decades to become a train wreck. Britney has done it in her early twenties. But Michael seemed incapable of summoning lessons from his own life to thwart her decline.

  SB: So what would you say to these people that are successful in the arts who are younger than you? The ’N Syncs? You would just tell them to be playful as well, don’t take it too seriously? Would you tell them anything else? Don’t take yourself too seriously or something?

  MJ: No, I would tell them always perfect your craft, always. I’m a very strong believer in working hard. But enjoy it, you know? Like be mild-spirited, playful, have some fun. You’ve got to have some fun, too.

  SB: What about, you always say to me how proud you are that your show is a family show, that your concerts are appropriate for children.

  MJ: Oh yeah.

  SB: Britney Spears was heavily criticized by some in the last MTV awards, like she almost did a striptease on stage.

  MJ: Oh. . . yeah, yeah, yeah.

  SB: She took this off and that off and just threw off. . . Do you think she needs to use that much sexuality to get out her message? Or, if she’s really talented she may not need that? Would you give her any advice on that? Or it’s a part of the show and no big deal?

  MJ: Umm, I don’t want to condemn her for it ’cause it’s a show. But she has to realize she has, you know, kids out there who want to be like her and they’ll do whatever she does. I don’t know, sometimes artists don’t realize the danger of what they’re doing. If I took a picture of me with a cigarette, how many kids would start smoking that very day? You know, you have to think about all that. And I understand, well, it’s just a video, I’m just acting a part, but you’re like their god. I mean. . .

  SB: You’ve always felt that sense of responsibility?

  MJ: Uh huh.

  SB: You’ve always known how the picture of you appears, people are going to emulate that?

  MJ: Yeah, and I understand why some artists may be a little controversial at times. I understand it. You know, if the press start talking too much about her coming from the Mickey Mouse Club and being, you know, cutie Britney, she might think, “I want to give them some edge so I can strip this. I’m edgier, I’m tougher, I’m. . .” You know? So I understand. I think deep inside she’s just a sweet person, you know?

  SB: So you would say to her, keep your clothes on, keep it in balance here, ’cause there are kids who want to be like you and you have a responsibility?

  MJ: Yeah, ’cause I like edge.

  SB: You always understood the importance of that responsibility, when you became famous? You knew you had a huge responsibility as an icon and as a trend-setter?

  MJ: Yeah, ’cause I don’t think, I don’t think I’ve ever done anything offensive on stage. . . ever. Like some of these acts, you talk about how Bobby Brown would get a girl up there and he starts grinding her, you know, right on in front of everybody and police arrested him several times. Like having sex right on stage and all these kids in the audience. My show it’s just totally different.

  On another occasion I asked Michael why he grabs his crotch, and isn’t that a contradiction to his claim of acting responsibly on stage. He told me he is not even conscious of it. It’s reflexive and not meant to be sexual.

  Sexuality and Modesty

  SB: In trying to preserve childlike qualities in your life Michael, you have shied away from talking about overt sexuality. Like when Oprah asked you about your sex life, you responded something to the effect that, “I’m a gentleman and I don’t talk about that.” Do you feel that we should be more respectful of the sexual side of our lives? Has it all become too overt? I mean you’re naturally shy about this.

  MJ: Yeah, I’m just naturally, um, ’cause I think that’s. . .

  SB: Private?

  MJ: Yeah, that’s my personal opinion. Other people who are exhibitionist, you know naturists, who go out nude and they feel different about it. Um, I don�
��t know, I’m just different in that way.

  SB: We don’t have to misuse our sexuality to increase ticket sales and record sales?

  MJ: No, that’s crazy, like some of these singers who put bulges in their pants, that’s crazy. I don’t understand that. That’s like disgusting to me when they do stuff like that. That’s embarrassing. I don’t want nobody to even look at me down. . . like looking for that. That would just embarrass me so bad, oh God.

  SB: Isn’t that just a sign of insecurity though? They think that maybe their dancing isn’t good enough and they need to highlight that other stuff.

  MJ: Yeah.

  SB: Would your message to someone like Britney Spears be, “Look, you’re pretty and talented. You don’t need the sleaze. You’re so talented without pulling everything off so that people will look at you. Like Madonna, who’s often been criticized for taking advantage of the male sexual drive to sort of get all these guys hunkering after her to make her popular.

  MJ: Yeah, uh huh. Aha.

  Fears

  Shmuley Boteach: Do you live with fears? You know people are going to shoot you down, metaphorically speaking. Does that make you afraid?

  Michael Jackson: Not as an artist. I am like a lion. Nothing can hurt me. No one can harm me without my permission. I wouldn’t let it bother me, even though I have been hurt and I have felt pain in the past, of course, I have been saved by a lot of that.

  This is quite a contradiction to Michael’s extreme vulnerability where he told me that everything he had done as an artist was to obtain love. I contrasted the two quotes in the epigraph.

  SB: You don’t live in fear now?

  MJ: No.

  SB: Do you think children teach us not to be afraid? On the one hand they are afraid, they are afraid of dogs, they are afraid of the dark, and so many other things. On the other hand they are not afraid to love and not afraid to need.